replay...

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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replay...

Postby RommeL_666 » Jul 11 2009, 0:29

My friend just dont want to believe that Heaven s stronger then Nature(Sylvan), so we had 2-3 games,all the times I won, even when the second one we fought without artifacts,so only heroes stats,skills and creatures still Heaven goes through an easy victory.Number of creatures is the same,of the same week and month and losses through game were minimum
I used skills Light magic,defence,attack,leadership and luck while he used Luck,defence,attack,light magic and enlightment.
So is there any chance in 1 to 1 Heaven vs nature that nature can win?And how?what skills and tactic should you use? (Keep in mind we are playing hotseat so we can see what each other is doing on the map,most of the times collecting everything before the last final battle)

here is the replay of the last battle WITHOUT artifacts.
http://rapidshare.com/files/254379652/kkkk.sav.html
"There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people"

jeff wrote:Me to, I usually hire the two best looking female heroes. Ok a bit of a sexist, but if I am going to stare a pictures all day, I might as well enjoy the view. :devious:

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Postby ywhtptgtfo » Jul 11 2009, 5:55

There are tonnes of X better than Y threads out there. Use the search tool and read them.

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Postby Mirez » Jul 11 2009, 11:57

he should have chosen destructive magic and abuse rain of arrows
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby Banedon » Jul 11 2009, 12:45

Your friend played badly and so lost, that's about it. Examples of errors he made:

1. Spending his 242 Arcane Archers' turn shooting the Crossbowmen at the start. Come on. It might be Dougal alright, but the Crossbowmen are guarded by Squires. You are dealing a lot less damage thanks to the Large Shield. Shoot the Archangels or the Champions. I'd also move the Crystal Dragons, Dryads and Wind Dancers forward slightly, ready to hammer your archer turtle when their turn comes again.
2. His second hero move is to cast Slow. If this is the best thing he can do, he screwed up really badly. Hero moves in final battles are extremely important. They can deal massive damage or cause massive disruption. His move is SLOW? Single-target slow, and BASIC slow at that!? Come on! Use a mass spell. If no mass spell, then learn one, because if you learn Light Magic on a Ranger that's what you'll do in final battles: casting mass spells. Mass Haste and Mass Righteous Might would've done him so much good this battle, if he'd just been able to cast it. At the very least, if no mass Light spell then have Imbue Arrow -> Divine Vengeance -> Rain of Arrows.
3. He cast Endurance on Pristine Unicorns with his third hero move. Another mistake. Pristine Unicorns have Child of Light. They automatically get Endurance no matter who you cast it on. Cast Endurance on the Ancient Treants and you'll automatically bless the Pristine Unicorns too.
4. He moved his Ancient Treants back instead of forwards when attacking your Champions. Not a good idea. By that time it's obvious the killer units on the battlefield are the Crossbowmen, Zealots, Battle Griffins, to a lesser extent the Brutes and Squires. He has no ranged firepower left; he needs to attack, not hang back.

I stopped watching at that point.

If you want, I can play you in a Random Tactical Arena game (see the arena thread in this forum) to show you what Sylvan can achieve. Haven might be one of the stronger races in the game, but Sylvan is no slouch either.
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.

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Postby RommeL_666 » Jul 11 2009, 13:39

Ok I get that but still if he shots at angels and champions crossbowmans will still kill almost anything in one shot,387 crossbowmans,question is how to stop them?eventually they are going to shot at something.YOu saw what happend when Dryad came close and dancer,squire and peasants still gonna rape them. Even that he manage to cast better magic I dont think it would do much good against that turtle tactics. Dont forget I have ressurection with heaven hero. How to neutralize so much crossbowmans with Nature?

Yes I know about other post in this forum,by this specific one is about nature vs heavens and my direct question.
"There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people"



jeff wrote:Me to, I usually hire the two best looking female heroes. Ok a bit of a sexist, but if I am going to stare a pictures all day, I might as well enjoy the view. :devious:

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Postby Banedon » Jul 11 2009, 13:51

Short answer:

Banedon wrote:If you want, I can play you in a Random Tactical Arena game (see the arena thread in this forum) to show you what Sylvan can achieve. Haven might be one of the stronger races in the game, but Sylvan is no slouch either.


Slightly longer answer: overwhelm them with damage. Crossbowmen are level 2 creatures. They cannot win a fight on their on, and neither can they one-hit everything. They killed 242 Arcane Archers in a hit, yes, but they got a lucky hit in don't forget.

Slightly more specific answer: Emerald Dragons (or Crystal Dragons and wear good luck charms) and thwack the archer turtle for double hit, aiming to hit the Crossbowmen as well. Mass Deflect Missile. Confusion. Evasion if really worried (should not be). Divine Vengeance. Kill all the other units with big damage and leave the Crossbowmen out to dry.

This fight in particular could very well have gone in Sylvan's way if he just had Mass Haste, Mass Righteous Might, or Divine Vengeance. He didn't. All he had was Mass Divine Strength. He played badly, and so he loses. That's about it.
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Postby RommeL_666 » Jul 11 2009, 14:14

Banedon wrote:Short answer:

Banedon wrote:If you want, I can play you in a Random Tactical Arena game (see the arena thread in this forum) to show you what Sylvan can achieve. Haven might be one of the stronger races in the game, but Sylvan is no slouch either.


Slightly longer answer: overwhelm them with damage. Crossbowmen are level 2 creatures. They cannot win a fight on their on, and neither can they one-hit everything. They killed 242 Arcane Archers in a hit, yes, but they got a lucky hit in don't forget.

Slightly more specific answer: Emerald Dragons (or Crystal Dragons and wear good luck charms) and thwack the archer turtle for double hit, aiming to hit the Crossbowmen as well. Mass Deflect Missile. Confusion. Evasion if really worried (should not be). Divine Vengeance. Kill all the other units with big damage and leave the Crossbowmen out to dry.

This fight in particular could very well have gone in Sylvan's way if he just had Mass Haste, Mass Righteous Might, or Divine Vengeance. He didn't. All he had was Mass Divine Strength. He played badly, and so he loses. That's about it.



Sorry about arena thing but my internet currently pretty suck and I got too much DC,but when I get new one I ll let you know in PM.

What if you dont get vengenance in your town as spell?
With what units,with what spells you can kill the rest of my units after I kill all your arcane archers or master hunters whatever you choose.You are generalizing things,like you can easily come near that turtle tactic,you are forgeting big retaliation strike from anything you hit there plus then again theirs attack,Zealost attacking dragon...he is dead..Most ppl think that Heavens main unit is crossbowman beacuse of his big dmg but I think they ALL units are great dmg dealers,anything you hit will hit you back big time and still you wont kill it.
your tactics:while you are killing everything else,(keep in mind you can kill almost anything from heaven in one shot like crossbowman can)crossbowman will kill any possible big dmg dealer from your army.
"There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people"



jeff wrote:Me to, I usually hire the two best looking female heroes. Ok a bit of a sexist, but if I am going to stare a pictures all day, I might as well enjoy the view. :devious:

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Postby Banedon » Jul 11 2009, 14:29

You seem fully convinced that Sylvan cannot beat Haven. If so, there's nothing I can say other than show you on the battlefield.
I'm a hypocrite because I suggested that all life is sacred and should not be wasted without good reason.

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Postby RommeL_666 » Jul 11 2009, 14:42

Banedon wrote:You seem fully convinced that Sylvan cannot beat Haven. If so, there's nothing I can say other than show you on the battlefield.


I think it can,but then again it depends on artifacts,map and good choosing of skills.
Most ppl on this forum are saying this unit is good against that,this against that and ect...but whats the use of that dragon shot when he get close and he is dead next turn for SURE.You need to get close with sylvan to even have a chance of doing something,and every time you got close with some unit it will be attacked with units in that formation,while I dont have to get close to sylvan units. But then again warlocks and deamon lords would brutalize me:)

I guess my point is that its a big diffrence in faction ballance
"There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people"



jeff wrote:Me to, I usually hire the two best looking female heroes. Ok a bit of a sexist, but if I am going to stare a pictures all day, I might as well enjoy the view. :devious:

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Postby Mirez » Jul 11 2009, 16:11

I always considered sylvan a lot stronger then haven, if it were only that you have acces to green dragons a lot faster then he can make archangels.
You can't compare fighting two giant army with fighting on an actual map, early in the game arcane hunters and druids will give you a win vs pretty much everything but fortess and dungeon. After that use your avenger skill wisely and you can win any final fight vs anything.

Sure divine vengance is really strong but I never have much luck getting it therefore I prefer going the 'safe' way and invest 3 points into destructive magic
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby ywhtptgtfo » Jul 11 2009, 20:47

Actually, if your friend is decent, his army would've taken a very large chunk out of your's in the first round. Let's take a look at the initiative and speeds. With the exception of Treants, all Sylvan units have an initative of at least 10 (3 with initative of at least 14) and of those, only the shooters do not have a speed of at least 7. With tactics, there are 4 units that can cross the battlefield in one move. On the other hand, only 4 Haven units have initiative of at least 10 and only 3 of them have a speed of at least 7.

What this means is that Sylvan army in general strikes first and has more moves. If the Sylvan player is smart he can easily cause devastating damage to your army by having the following:
- High morale
- High luck
- Elven luck (+25% luck bonus)
- Avenger targets: Griffins, Cavaliers, and Angels (30% chance of double damage against them)
- Mass haste

With that, he can charge your turtle units with Sprites + Dragons + Bladedancers (all of which have very high init and speed + spread damage). With luck, avenger, high morale, and haste kicking in, you probably wouldn't have much left when the Crossbowmen, Vindicator, Brutes, and Priests get their turns. Meanwhile, the Arcane Archers, Unicorns, and Druids can pretty much lay waste on the Griffins, Angels, or Cavaliers.

RommeL_666 wrote:
Banedon wrote:You seem fully convinced that Sylvan cannot beat Haven. If so, there's nothing I can say other than show you on the battlefield.


I think it can,but then again it depends on artifacts,map and good choosing of skills.
Most ppl on this forum are saying this unit is good against that,this against that and ect...but whats the use of that dragon shot when he get close and he is dead next turn for SURE.You need to get close with sylvan to even have a chance of doing something,and every time you got close with some unit it will be attacked with units in that formation,while I dont have to get close to sylvan units. But then again warlocks and deamon lords would brutalize me:)

I guess my point is that its a big diffrence in faction ballance

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Postby Banedon » Jul 12 2009, 0:11

RommeL_666 wrote:Most ppl on this forum are saying this unit is good against that,this against that and ect...but whats the use of that dragon shot when he get close and he is dead next turn for SURE.You need to get close with sylvan to even have a chance of doing something,and every time you got close with some unit it will be attacked with units in that formation,while I dont have to get close to sylvan units. But then again warlocks and deamon lords would brutalize me:)


In the final battle you have got to make sacrifices. If one race and destroy the other without losing anything serious then something has seriously gone wrong. So what if the Dragons get close and die next turn? Anything so long as you win the battle ...

I'll go get one such fight and you can watch it.

EDIT: Here. I played myself in the Random Tactica Arena. I used Dougal, who I normally do not use, against Anwen.

With Haven I did the Peasants -> Crossbowmen training, something which I normally do not do as well. Went for Retribution, Enlightenment (offered the Tome of Power in the artifact merchant, so ...), Light Magic and Leadership of course. That left a fair bit of spare gold for higher levels.

With Sylvan I did Destructive Magic, Elven Luck, and Destructive Magic. On hindsight Destructive Magic wasn't very smart given how little Spell Power and Knowledge I had. Favoured the Crossbowmen (duh), Griffins and Champions.

The fight went a lot closer than I expected it would, but in the end Sylvan won, with the last few Silver Unicorns (should've used Pristines) and Ancient Treants killing the last few Squires (who were the last survivors in the Haven army). Made a few mistakes here and there, eg. probably should've gotten the Zealots to cast Righteous Might early so Dougal can cast Mass Haste instead of waiting for the Imperial Griffins to land and Righteous Might them instead. Wind Dancers should move as much as possible for the Agility bonus; I didn't. Sylvan was a bit unfortunate this run with a mere 7 Knowledge, which only let him use Implosion once. All the High Druids, Emerald Dragons and Arcane Archers died early, but they did their damage and Anwen won the fight.

Tell me what you think.

http://rapidshare.com/files/254763827/SylHav.sav.html
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Postby RommeL_666 » Jul 12 2009, 8:29

nice battle that is for sure,but I have a quite a big feeling heaven is wrongly set here.First enlightment is not my choice beacuse they dont need it...luck is so much better for them. Putting champions there to protect archers is so clear that eventually they will have to move and turtle tactic then goes off. You should put zealots and inquisitors there even though I wouldnt split them in two stacks,just beacuse they spells are spells that hero should cast on mass and they should be a hard hitting defencive unit, split them you gain not so great spells and losing good dmg.
Closing that archers and choosing maybe archangels instead serpah would pretty much give you good one time ressurection.
Nice thing with implosion, that surely make this battle more closer.And btw why do you choose silver unicorns instead priestin?Since you are fighting heaven it obvius that they will cast light magic so he would be much more buffed up...
"There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people"



jeff wrote:Me to, I usually hire the two best looking female heroes. Ok a bit of a sexist, but if I am going to stare a pictures all day, I might as well enjoy the view. :devious:

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Postby ywhtptgtfo » Jul 12 2009, 10:56

There are a few significant improvements that could be made over at the Sylvan side too. The triple Implosion seems like a big mistake. It took out a great deal of mana and did not have much of an effect. If Rain of Arrow + Imbue arrow strategy is to be used, the following might've been better:
- Fireball + Master of Fire
- Meteor Shower
- Deep Freeze + Master of Ice + Cold Death (Crossbowmen + Angels + Champions
- Frenzy

Otherwise, a combination of Mass Light and Dark spells could've also produce a better situation:
- Mass Forgetfulness + Mass Haste + Mass Weakness

As for units, Savage Treant (Rage of Forest, Symbiosis), Pristine Unicorns (Light spells), Bladedancers (Multi-attack), and Prismatic Dragons (Multi-attack) would've been a better set-up. This setup would've should greatly increase the damage output of the first few rounds

RommeL_666 wrote:nice battle that is for sure,but I have a quite a big feeling heaven is wrongly set here.First enlightment is not my choice beacuse they dont need it...luck is so much better for them. Putting champions there to protect archers is so clear that eventually they will have to move and turtle tactic then goes off. You should put zealots and inquisitors there even though I wouldnt split them in two stacks,just beacuse they spells are spells that hero should cast on mass and they should be a hard hitting defencive unit, split them you gain not so great spells and losing good dmg.
Closing that archers and choosing maybe archangels instead serpah would pretty much give you good one time ressurection.
Nice thing with implosion, that surely make this battle more closer.And btw why do you choose silver unicorns instead priestin?Since you are fighting heaven it obvius that they will cast light magic so he would be much more buffed up...

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Postby Banedon » Jul 12 2009, 11:16

I went for Enlightenment because of the Tome of Power - without which Dougal had ~3 Spell Power and ~3 Knowledge, which wouldn't be enough. You can not go for it if you want ... you can also not split Zealots / Inquisitors if you want.

I played myself a few more times and beat myself a few times (of course), but then decided there's no point uploading the replays. Just give me a message whenever you feel like playing and we'll try it out in real time.

@Above - you're restricted by what spells are offered at your mage guild. As I wrote on hindsight Destructive Magic wasn't very smart; probably should've gone with Light. Pristines might not be the best idea since Haven can just as reasonably use Dark. I think Savage Treants are pretty bad; by the time they get to act once, use Rage of the Forest and act again the battle will be pretty near over. Not so sure about the War Dancers, I might give them a go to beat up the Archer turtle.
Last edited by Banedon on Jul 12 2009, 11:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby RommeL_666 » Jul 12 2009, 11:25

Banedon wrote:I went for Enlightenment because of the Tome of Power - without which Dougal had ~3 Spell Power and ~3 Knowledge, which wouldn't be enough. You can not go for it if you want ... you can also not split Zealots / Inquisitors if you want.

I played myself a few more times and beat myself a few times (of course), but then decided there's no point uploading the replays. Just give me a message whenever you feel like playing and we'll try it out in real time.

@Above - you're restricted by what spells are offered at your mage guild. Pristines might not be the best idea since Haven can just as reasonably use Dark. I think Savage Treants are pretty bad; by the time they get to act once, use Rage of the Forest and act again the battle will be pretty near over. Not so sure about the War Dancers, I might give them a go to beat up the Archer turtle.


I played with Sylvan today vs 3 computer Heaven AI. There is one excellent skill selection which gave me almost invincible army.
Level 21
Expert Avenger,Advanced defence;expert luck,Expert Destruction,Expert war machines.My goal was Imbue ballista,and with some artifacts got nice knowlege and with druid nice spellpower. Casting Circle of winter,great spell and with tripple balista and its imbue circle of winter was a killer,hittig two three units with great dmg.First killed archangels then crossbowmans and the battle was merely over... Only thing is that low chance of getting destruction and war machines but then when you get it at the final battle you have great advantage over Heaven.
"There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people"



jeff wrote:Me to, I usually hire the two best looking female heroes. Ok a bit of a sexist, but if I am going to stare a pictures all day, I might as well enjoy the view. :devious:

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Postby Banedon » Jul 12 2009, 11:59

The AI is stupid ...

Destructive Magic is pretty common for Rangers actually. It's one of their two spell trees: Destructive and Light.
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Postby Mirez » Jul 12 2009, 12:46

imbue ballista kicks **** but the chance you get offered war machines is like 5% or something
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby RommeL_666 » Jul 12 2009, 15:39

haloswift wrote:imbue ballista kicks **** but the chance you get offered war machines is like 5% or something


8%

Did you ever tried maybe with Dark magic?Any chance that would work with them?AI is stupid but at least they come with big army:)
"There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people"



jeff wrote:Me to, I usually hire the two best looking female heroes. Ok a bit of a sexist, but if I am going to stare a pictures all day, I might as well enjoy the view. :devious:

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Postby Mirez » Jul 12 2009, 17:31

actually I switched destructive magic with summoning magic, it fits sylvan a lot better, you can imbue summon hyve or arcane crystal and other fun toy's
treants are dendrosexual 0_o


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