Heroes 6 wishlist (draft)

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Tress
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Postby Tress » Sep 9 2010, 7:32

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/phpimages/article/2/7/5/25275.jpg?v=1


O yeah. 3 games that are set in modern times about modern warfare have m4/16 with red dot sight. Of course can say that medal of honor after milking ww2 theme some 10 years ago now try to cash in on COD:MW popularity but that's another matter.
Jagged Alliance is as TBS but completely different then Heroes, and Disciples might be closer, but it's still very different, but people seem intent on making every damn game in the same genre be the same... just look at FPS's today (it's doom-clone time all over again):

In fact when new part of JA was in development(it was pulled of by Strategy first, and released by different name) devs suggested RTS model. SF writed it down that every new dev company of course wants to leave it;s mark on great series by adding something from themselves. Guess homm 5 aint exception in this matter, there is quite many things that reminds me of Etherlords, and not in a good way.

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Postby Soronarr » Sep 9 2010, 9:07

Kristo wrote:So... how do you intend for that to work?


Hero on the battlefield?
There can be many ways that can work.

- Stacks capped at 100 (no more than 100 units per stack).

- Heroes on the battlefield tied to a stack (stack acts as bodyguards, hero attack together with the stack, cannot be killed as long that stack is still alive))

- no stacks at all (units have a fixed cost, or units have an upkeep).

etc...



Because you can already play Disciples, while the rest of us will be left with nothing?!


And you haven't thought this through, no stacks would mean changing how you recruit units, how unit levels work, how you build your town, how you fight battles etc... the changes would be as big as turning it into a RTS...


Jagged Alliance is as TBS but completely different then Heroes, and Disciples might be closer, but it's still very different, but people seem intent on making every damn game in the same genre be the same... just look at FPS's today (it's doom-clone time all over again):


Spare me the seremon. Your "you want all games to be the same" consipiracy theory bores me. No, I don't want all games to be the same.
Yes, I do want more games to use mechanics *I* find the best and most enjoyable.

Would change in mechanics necessiate bigger changes? Yes, where necessary. Change happens. Sometimes for the worse, sometimes for the better.
I know how it is to feel less and less games are to your liking. Thet the "good old"mechanics that are fun are fading away. That the last bastion of a true RPG/RTS/whatever is dying. Yes, I know how it is. I long for a good old Baldurs Gate -like RPG.

But again, I represent *MY* interests here...not yours.

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Postby MattII » Sep 9 2010, 9:27

And you're dodging the question of how you'd make a 'no-stacks' situation work.

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Spells

Postby mundane » Sep 9 2010, 12:21

It would be nice if you used all the spells you got rather than 70-80% of them being untouched. When was the last time you used teleport? How often do you use any of the summoning spells other than phantom forces.
So you don't get into the same old routines.

Getting away from the routine:

Oh its a combat.
Step1 mass haste.
Step2 mass slow
Step3 benediction/banshee howl etc

type of mindset would be good.

So either fewer spells that are harder to get (or preferably) scenarios/troops that make the choices between spells more varied.

e.g.
enemy missile troops on an island in a river in a cave that is so low it precludes flying.

enemy troops that prevent haste/slow being used.

there was some of this in V but more would be better IMO.

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Postby Kristo » Sep 9 2010, 12:22

Seriously, have you played any of the Disciples series? Those games have heroes on the battlefield with stackless armies. Go try it, you might like it.

How one recruits creatures is such a core mechanic that I'm concerned that HoMM would end up as basically the same game as Disciples if you made stackless armies. That change would ripple through the rest of the game. It'd become Disciples with conquerable home castles.

(Yes I know you could technically conquer a home town in Disciples if you tried hard enough. But it's not necessary to win.)
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Postby Soronarr » Sep 9 2010, 13:50

Maybe. As I said - it depends on how you do it. There's a million and one ways to do thing - if you're creative enough. Would it end up being a Disciples clone if done the way you describe? Similar for sure, but not a clone. Or would it?


I already gave 2 suggestions as to how to have heroes on the battlefield with stacks (capped stacks, bodyguard stack). There might be more. Feel free to come up with something.

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Postby Zenofex » Sep 9 2010, 14:22

I've been reading this discussion for some time now and can't help but ask - why should the stacks be removed? Any particular reason apart from "the heroes can't enter the battle themselves", which isn't really serious itself if you just remember HoMM IV where you could make the hero one-man-army? I know a hundred reasons why they should NOT be removed or capped though. Equilibrium is needed, obviously.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 9 2010, 15:11

tress wrote:O yeah. 3 games that are set in modern times about modern warfare have m4/16 with red dot sight.


Yes, 3 games that are exactly about the same thing and have the same weapons and mechanics... how does that not strengthen the point?!


Soronarr wrote:Spare me the seremon. Your "you want all games to be the same" consipiracy theory bores me. No, I don't want all games to be the same.
Yes, I do want more games to use mechanics *I* find the best and most enjoyable.


You don't want them to be the same, you just want them to have the same mechanics... and an art aesthetic taken from another series.


Would change in mechanics necessitate bigger changes? Yes, where necessary. Change happens. Sometimes for the worse, sometimes for the better.


And sometimes changes happen that make games so similar that they might as well be clones...


I know how it is to feel less and less games are to your liking. Thet the "good old"mechanics that are fun are fading away. That the last bastion of a true RPG/RTS/whatever is dying. Yes, I know how it is. I long for a good old Baldurs Gate -like RPG.

But again, I represent *MY* interests here...not yours.


Problem is your interest is short-sighted and rather unenlightened (to reference a certain philosophy).

Wouldn't it be better if there was a BG-like RPG alongside all those new ones?! Wouldn't everyone benefit because there would be a type of RPG that's just the way they like it?!

Plus, what's the point of a sequel if you're gonna change everything but the genre, why not just make a new series... right, marketing purposes.

- Stacks capped at 100 (no more than 100 units per stack).


100 Black Dragons vs 100 Peasants... battle of the century.

The upper limit of stacks would have to be determined by level, and then you might as well just hire pre-determined armies.

And Disciples's system was really horrible for balance, loosing your main hero or not having as much exp as the enemy units was instant game over.
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Postby Blocks100 » Sep 9 2010, 16:26

Just had a random thought: If we can no longer recruit from flaggable creature dwellings, they now just supply population bonuses in towns (nice idea imo) - how do we go about recruiting neutral creatures?

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Postby MattII » Sep 9 2010, 17:57

Well either we recruit them in the towns like everything else (from a special building), or non-town creatures are exempt from this rule.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 9 2010, 18:41

Or maybe there are no neutrals except summons.

Blocks100 wrote: they now just supply population bonuses in towns (nice idea imo) -


Also, something that's been proposed for a long time by fans..
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My wishes for heroes VI though I may have been too late :P

Postby TheUnknown » Sep 11 2010, 4:07

What I believe is a feature that makes balancing easy is simultaneous retaliations. I loved how in Heroes IV you could have no retaliation, simultaneous retaliation and even first strike on some of your troops and they were all balanced according to the creatures that have them.

Except the current retaliation system I would welcome any other change to the game because we should see something new in every heroes game.

* only 4 resources - good because reduces randomness of a game when you put random resources on maps
* map areas are controlled by central towns/forts (each governs an area) - enemies can still have the building in your area if they are stationed near it so it is fair
* combat objectives and arena shape may vary. - arena shape may vary is a great feature
* Less random choices in hero development - always great but should not exclude randomness totally
* towns can be converted - If it's really really really really really hard to do so, like having a super big level hero that is able to convince everyone in town for a change
* hero role in combat as in HoMM1-3 - Well as a heroes fan I cannot say no to this but I would like it better if heroes were in combat where they can actually die and be revived later if needed
* ATB bar is there, but not initiative as we know it from HoMM5 - if getting your turn is the same like in pre Homm V games then I love it already

I also heard advanced classes are back, that would be awesome.

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Postby Soronarr » Sep 11 2010, 14:38

ThunderTitan wrote: You don't want them to be the same, you just want them to have the same mechanics... and an art aesthetic taken from another series.


ERm...no.
Get off your high horse already.

I'm throwing suggestion out there. Quite a few. Some are incopatible with others. I prefer to have options.



I know how it is to feel less and less games are to your liking. Thet the "good old"mechanics that are fun are fading away. That the last bastion of a true RPG/RTS/whatever is dying. Yes, I know how it is. I long for a good old Baldurs Gate -like RPG.

But again, I represent *MY* interests here...not yours.


Problem is your interest is short-sighted and rather unenlightened (to reference a certain philosophy).


Again, you're free to your opinion on my interest, regardless how much that opinion might be short-sighted and stupid.



Plus, what's the point of a sequel if you're gonna change everything but the genre, why not just make a new series... right, marketing purposes.


Evolution. Sure, you can just make the same game with better graphics...but is that really needed? If I want HOMM2 or 3, I can very well still play them.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 11 2010, 19:00

Soronarr wrote:ERm...no.
Get off your high horse already.

I'm throwing suggestion out there. Quite a few. Some are incopatible with others. I prefer to have options.


Looks to me like you just like to throw random stuff around with little though on their effects.


Again, you're free to your opinion on my interest, regardless how much that opinion might be short-sighted and stupid.


And you're free to actually state some objective reasons why my opinion is like that...



Evolution. Sure, you can just make the same game with better graphics...but is that really needed? If I want HOMM2 or 3, I can very well still play them.


Evolution is a gradual process of improvements being added, not a willy-nilly process where random parts get added to something (unless you're in the universe of the X-Men) regardless of what came before.
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Postby ecsunotos » Sep 13 2010, 22:13

Soronarr wrote:...

- no stacks at all (units have a fixed cost, or units have an upkeep).

etc...


unit has an upkeep : too difficult to be implemented in HoMM due to limited resources producer ( town for gold / mines for other resources ) but the army getting larger time to time. ( imbalance between resources growth and army growth )

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Postby King Imp » Sep 14 2010, 15:45

I just ask for one thing that news I've read worries me.

We need a minimum of 6 factions to start, not 5 like we've been hearing.
I just feel that there needs to be an even amount so each faction has another to directly oppose them.

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Postby Bishop AlMighty » Sep 16 2010, 18:03

IMO,
Units must have it's own movement so that you can't create chain of heroes and transfer creatures from one part of the map to another in a single day.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 17 2010, 9:41

way to be late to the suggestion party Bish... unfortunately that's a H4 feature, to be avoided until the very last expansion which people are gonna buy anyway out of inertia.
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Postby Variol » Sep 23 2010, 10:48

My main wish is that they dumb down the graphics and other drap, so the game runs fast.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Sep 23 2010, 18:32

Or they could put in some effort and actually make the graphics very scalable...
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