Heroes 6 wishlist (draft)

The new Heroes games produced by Ubisoft. Please specify which game you are referring to in your post.

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Moragauth
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Postby Moragauth » May 2 2009, 8:39

Mine are in http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1851065692/m/6781053876 and especially http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1851065692/m/6781053876?r=4041095976#4041095976

Basically, I want:
-Restructuring of Dungeon/removal of dragons as tier 7s for all factions and made into summoned creatures. Specific changes I'd like to see for units is the Lich elevated to a tier 7, the Matriarch/Mistress given spells suited to their roles (e.g. Phantom Forces for the latter, Implosion/Chain Lightning for the former and also higher spell ranks) as well as the removal of the stupid limit on their shots and the ability to teleport on the battlefield like sorceresses should be able to.
-Hero's spellpower and knowledge affecting units (e.g. if he has 30 spellpower, the units' spellpower increases as if their numbers were 1.5x what they actually are, using figures I just made up for convenience.)
-Non-logarithmic spellpower progression for units. Their damaging spells should not become useless as they level (to the point that shots are much better.)
-Greater interaction with the environment, as listed in that thread (some really good ideas in there)
-Spellcasting heroes should not be at a disadvantage later on in the game, and magic should trail the hero's power and not suffer diminishing returns as the game progresses.
-Two hero types for each faction, one "might" and one "magic". E.g. dungeon could have a hero who focuses on improving its units and their growth rates (so as to take advantage of the faction's powerful units, and overcome their numerical disadvantage and who learns skills to give them new powers, e.g. a fire effect on her whip for the Shadow Mistress or a teleport a square back and shoot retaliation technique for the Matriarch if she's cornered), and another who focuses on extreme spellpower (like the current Warlock), spellcasting units and small armies. Some factions would of course focus more on one or the other, but it'd be nice if the option were there like in HoMM III.
-If there is "spell" or "magic resistance" there should be techniques available to powerful mages to smash through it too, like Dungeon's Irresistible Spells, perhaps accessible by having developed the Sorcery skill. Also, Irresistible Spells and similar techniques should negate the rage shield the orcs use to the extent that it normally cuts through magic resistance, say allowing 70% of the spell's damage to go through.
-At a certain level spellcasting units should gain a Mass Effect for their spells, to reflect their huge numbers and gains in their power. This should be done so as not to overshadow the hero (perhaps with a high mana cost.)
-Like KB, bolts of energy used by spellcasting units should be usable up close. It's stupid that they aren't, and like I said in that post, they are not like bows with which it's difficult to fire up close.

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Postby Articun » May 2 2009, 12:58

1. Revampt Towns with specific orientation and uniqueness
2. Each Town a specific magic system but with cababilities of learning spells from other schools as well
3. Revampt magic schools with unique spells in each, more effiecient and better special effects
3b. In battle - Out of Battle spells - Area spells
4. Fewer heroes but each unique with better biografy and abilities with diffrent model (that will be according to his/her story)
4b. Ability to create your own hero
4c. Specific classes, advanced class (somewhat like heroes 4) but more balanced, and better.
5. Alternative creature upgrades, more advanced trees (2-3 evolutions)
6. Better more real like graphics, more cababilities for low end and high end systems
7. Epic Music (generally better music score)
8. Better game interface diffrent with each faction - Generally, diffrent way the game looks while playing a specific faction (warcraft 3 style)
9. The artifacts able to be seen on the player
10. New world, with better mythos and settings (possibly with a mix of old elements and heroes or places) with a new and good story
11. More attack sets per creature, depending on the angle of the attack, the distance and maybe even the numbers of the stock.
11b. Better connectivity between attacks/ retaliation/ evasion and maybe the addition of parrying (maybe when the creatures numbers are close) that will be shown during the battle
12. More flexibility in town customization with the ability to built more buildings with diffrent bonuses in places of others that could affect the whole town image diffrently (adding to uniquness each time you play - replayability)
13. Better support and bug fixing

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Wish List

Postby zato_one » May 2 2009, 15:52

Well, I have a huge list of wishes that I think that would make the game a lot better.

Creatures: The game should adopt something like the Leadership feature, kind like the King's Bounty, so that it would be good to have multiple heroes on the game, as they would never be able to amass all the town workforce.

Creatures: Increase the importance of defense, as a tactical advantage the low HP of the creatures on the game make defense and healing very useless, the amount of creatures should be balanced so that the combat would last longer, allowing the use of defensive magics and abilities.

Creatures: No upgrades on the same town, each town would have 2 diffent upgrades if they have another type of town, one especific for that town and the other being always the highest tier of creature of the town.

For instance: The inferno takes an Academy, they would have acess to the unique upgrade for the imp, turning they into familiars, and making the devils into a kind of a devil spell caster, and each town will provide one tier with a unique upgrade and another upgrade for the top tier. So heaven will provide a low tier and another kind of devil, as would Necro and so on.

Town: Towns should have some more economic aspects, not only mining for survival, the current market is not a market it is robbery, so each town should be at least self-sufficient to run on a slow motion, not being completely halted because you couldn't find a sulfur deposit.

Battle: if people want the game to be more balanced and strategy to have a bigger impact one thing that should be added is the battle in skirmish mode. It would be something like this:

The skirmish:
When creatures enter melee, they will not deliver their damage in chunks of damage, but in ticks of damage, all calculated within a single blow, causing the creature to deliver their damage in a proportional amount to their initiative. So during the melee the creature with higher initiative will deliver a higher tick of the damage than a slower creature, till they deliver it in full,acounting the loss all the way.

The skirmish have an amount of damage steps equal to the initiative of the slowest creature.
On each damage step the damage is recalcullated for the amount of the stack that is left.
I'll show examples now, with the regular way of heroes V and with the skirmish mode, how the damage is done diferently, this will not change the visual aspect, just how the math is done to calc the amount of damage and deaths.

Examples: Classic
Stack A: Size: 50 Damage: 1-3 Initiative 3 Health 10
Stack B: Size: 30 Damage: 4-5 Initiative 5 Health 15

A Attacks B: Deals 100 damage,kills 6 and B deals 108 damage Kills 10
Aftermatch: Size A 40; Size B 24

B attacks A: deals 135 damage, kills 13 and A deals 74 damage kills 4
Aftermatch: Size A 47; Size B 26

Examples: Skirmish
Same Stacks

A attacks B: 3 damage phases: A starts, Phase 1: A deals 33 Kills 2; B deals 50 Kills 5
Phase 2: A deals 30 kills 2; B deals 23 Kills 2
Phase 3: A deals 28 kills 2; B deals 21 Kills 2 Atfter Match: A 41; B 24

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Postby rdeford » May 2 2009, 17:30

Fan-created maps are an intrinsic part of the HOMM success story. H6 has to have a great editor. Period. I have a few ideas:

Two-tier editor:

SCRIPTING:

First tier similar to the check-box scripting of the H3 editor, and the easy to use scripting of the H4 editor.

Second tier with power comparable to H5 scripting but with a consistent object-oriented base, and a MUCH easier way to create and use text elements.

CUSTOM OBJECTS

First tier limited to custom names and a few simple parameter variables. For example, treasures would have a quantity variable, a discovery text variable, and a post-capture text variable.

Second tier would have full object customization and creation. In an object-oriented scripting environment, you would have a set of basic classes. For example, a treasure class, a building class, a mine class, container class, scenery class, etc. When the map maker creates an instance of a class to place on the map, he or she would get all the class methods and variables of the the class and would be able to assign values to each of the class variables. But, beyond that it should be possible to overwrite some of the class methods and variables, or even to create combo-classes. For example, if you combined a rock class and a locked-container class you could bet a hollow rock that required a key and that could contain an artifact. And if that hollow rock had its portable variable set to a value of true, a hero could carry it around while looking for the key.

STORY TELLING:

Stories are part of the HOMM experience. It just isn't a good HOMM version without a good story. For example, consider a chess game. There is only one possible outcome to every game, the capture of the enemy King. There really is no story. I am suggesting that we have an easy way to adapt H6 to provide a way for the mapmaker to have a story that unfolds as the player plays a map.

First tier same simple and easy text methods and events of the H3 editor.

Second tier would have have a way to better integrate a story into the basic combat orientation of HOMM. I'd like the capability to create stories that were puzzle oriented, mystery oriented, romantic, adventure, comic, etc. H5 actually allowed much of this but it was MUCH to difficult and tedious to do it.

Also, for the second tier I would like to see the capability to create an open-ended map where the player had to do something besides build an army and eliminate one or more opponents. How about a better trading model where you could open trade routes and send/receive goods, weapons, and other supplies with foreign nations? How about a better diplomatic system for making and breaking alliances over the course of the game? How about the ability to create a map that was designed for discovery and adventure instead of just combat?
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Re: Wish List

Postby Kristo » May 2 2009, 19:25

zato_one wrote:Creatures: The game should adopt something like the Leadership feature, kind like the King's Bounty, so that it would be good to have multiple heroes on the game, as they would never be able to amass all the town workforce.

Interesting that you should mention this. It's a topic that comes up with every new Heroes game and is never adequately answered IMHO. How do you propose the game deal with the following problems:

1. Leadership creates logistical problems. You need a hero with high leadership to transport troops to the front lines. But such a hero is inevitably already on the front.

2. Leadership affects game balance. Two heroes of equal level should have about the same chance of winning a battle assuming both are carrying their full capacity of troops.

3. Assuming you solve that problem, does a low level hero stand a chance against a high level hero?

Leadership is often proposed as the solution to the game degenerating into a contest of building the best superhero. But unless you can do something like attack with two heroes at once, the most effective strategy will still be to build the best superhero. After all, he who gets there first with the most, wins.
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Postby Sir Dabbler » May 2 2009, 23:16

#1 #1 Easy to use map editor.

Experience would vary for battles Your army is weaker yet you win you would be rewarded more experience and possibly work towards a 'skill' adding to your base stats.

Also in favor of the might or magic male/female option on each race.

Definitely upgrades but actually upgrade them/ not tweek them

If a creature has an ability (throws lightning) that creature should have substancially extra resistance against (air magic) and possibly be able to 'catch' or turn it back against opponent that cast it at them.

Magical items could be good,evil,neutral similar to blade of balance. Some effects might be perminent. (even before/after save)

Neutral armies with generic heroes, defence-able possitions. Complete with ballistas and other support equipment-weaker than castles though

Castles/towns after attacks need 'recovery' time before walls,turrets are repaired

Varing level and number of 'guard' creatures that are inheirent to mines,tombs, and other type buildings

And yes I suck at spelling.

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Postby Darmani » May 3 2009, 5:08

Ubi really needs to focus on having a strong, fun core -- all those bells and whistles people are requesting should be secondary.

This is personally what I'd like to see in that department:

1)No initiative system. Go back to something that can be predicted by hand. (I often found myself unable to calculate far enough in advance because the initiative bar was too short.)
2)Hex grids!

And most importantly:
3)Distinctive factions a la H2 -- it's boring for every faction to have a 10 HP level 1 and a 300 HP level 7.

And midway between the core request and secondary request department, but still important (not to mention easier to implement than not to implement):

4)Actually usable town views with distinctive buildings

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Postby Bandobras Took » May 3 2009, 16:02

Darmani wrote:And most importantly:
3)Distinctive factions a la H2 -- it's boring for every faction to have a 10 HP level 1 and a 300 HP level 7.


When has that ever happened in a Heroes game?

4)Actually usable town views with distinctive buildings


I would point out, though, that H4 took this design philosophy to unhealthy extreme, in which towns were completely boring to look at. For me, Heroes 2 achieved the best balance between utility and graphics.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Leadership Reply

Postby zato_one » May 3 2009, 18:05

Kristo, but we already have that kind of problem as the game already is.
A high level tank hero, basically obliterate an opposing force of lower level with half of the army by just it's incredibly high stats in attack and defense.
One of the main problems with working on stats that have 10 as a high grade is that each point of the stat creates a HUGE difference betwen heroes.
Let's start answering your questions.
1: Leadership may create the logistic problem, but usually you'll just summon the creatures from the town or they might create a caravan to hero or to the dwelling.

2: Not at all, one artifact have much more effect than pure stack size, and attack and defense stat have a huge impact on the battle as well. So having a mix of it you will have a lot more creatures to share with your armie.

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Postby Asheera » May 3 2009, 19:08

Why Hex grids? Square ones provide more strategy IMO as your creatures can get attacked from more tiles, not to mention the possibility of having large creatures like in H5 occupying 4 squares, which further makes the game more interesting and strategic.
No matter how powerful one becomes, there is always someone stronger. That's why I'm in a constant pursuit of power, so I can be prepared when an enemy tries to take advantage of me.

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Re: Leadership Reply

Postby Kristo » May 4 2009, 1:49

zato_one wrote:1: Leadership may create the logistic problem, but usually you'll just summon the creatures from the town or they might create a caravan to hero or to the dwelling.

When did heroes gain the ability to summon creatures from a town? Also, caravans have to be done correctly for this to work. Neither H4 nor H5 has made a lot of people happy in that regard. You see why this isn't a simple addition to the game? It starts to affect everything. ;-)

zato_one wrote:2: Not at all, one artifact have much more effect than pure stack size, and attack and defense stat have a huge impact on the battle as well. So having a mix of it you will have a lot more creatures to share with your armie.

I guess I'm not fully understanding you. What's stopping you from spreading your creatures and your experience among multiple heroes now?

Asheera wrote:Why Hex grids? Square ones provide more strategy IMO as your creatures can get attacked from more tiles, not to mention the possibility of having large creatures like in H5 occupying 4 squares, which further makes the game more interesting and strategic.

The word you're looking for is tactical (battle scale), not strategic (scenario scale). I like hex grids because they're more pleasing to the eye. I suspect that's what Darmani meant.
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Heroes VI

Postby TheUnknown » May 4 2009, 6:09

Well, I am very glad the heroes title gets to have another chapter, I mean its the 6th one, rarely what game survives that long, I hope they will make the new one apealing to the old players and atractive to the new ones.
The thing I always liked about heroes among other things are the campains (the graphic, the music, the story, almost anything that was in them) yes sometimes there were maps that were real pain (too long or hard or both) but all in all great job there. I also like the scenarios that are more balanced, rather than the ones focusing on story. I don't care that much about the graphics usually, the gameplay is more important for me, altough the heroes graphics were always great if not excelent we can't have a 5 chapter game if it didn't have decent graphics. For me the music themes in the game are exceptional, the battle ones, the town ones, the adventuristic ones for the map, from h3 to h5 i love them all (havent played h2 much and h1 at all : ). Creatures jumping from town to town from chapter to chapter was also kinda interesting.

And the most important part for me The Gameplay.
I want to see diversities between factions and hero development but not to afect the balance. Simultaneous retaliations should be brought back (there can be first srtike ability), all creatures from same level should cost the same price per week (or month : ). Creature choosing or upgrade choosing, any would be great but not both : ). Number of creatures per town should be less cos u end up not using many low level ones. Indiviual specialities for heroes is great, I would like to seee many heroes on battlefield like in h4 and option for heroes that want to participate in battle but from far away (if they are tacticians or similar) and gain less exp. I like all the spell systems from h3 to h5, the skill system from h4 is kinda best for me (shoud have more diversities but not like h5, that one is very complicated).
There are many other things we can discuss about the gameplay, for now this is it : )

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Postby RommeL_666 » May 5 2009, 0:15

Wishes...
1. and most important,damn Luck skill,in heroes 4 luck was perfect,just a point that lowers dmg,but in damn Heroes 5 you can win easly with only too much luck beacuse of stupid double dmg luck,I dont wanna lose by enemy who wins me by luck and less then knowlege.

2. definitly diffrent heroes looks,profils or whatever in battle and in offview map,something more like personality hero.

3.Story that will keep me up to play it on and on with every new mission,something like in Heroes 4,this in heroes 5 was too stupid

4.Music could be better,like in heroes 4.more stuff on the map could be better

5.oh yes,definitly bigger battlground,I find this heroes 5 very small,and shooters are like pointless for some part of game and big level creatures are also pointless. Having 5 black dragons in heroes 4 ment something,in heroes 5 it ment only sh**.Also low level creatues had more bigger meaning,now my squire can only sit and wait,and act like 2 times per battle,while some stupid blood fury goes around and acts like she had 50 Red Bulls.

6.and whats this with alternate upgrades,vau they change theirs cloth but basic grafic is the same,thats just lame for me,I dont care that one unicorn is white,while other shines like christmas tree but their basic thing that they look totaly the same.

7.Definitly better editor,more easy one to handle with

I dont think al things gone bad,grafic was one of the most beautful new changes in Heroes,new creates finnaly looked like they should,not some damn wolf in heroes 4 that looked like a puppy doll.
Well its all for now;)
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Specifics....

Postby astral76minor » May 5 2009, 1:39

We got more than 2 years to post all kinds of things. However, I hope that our views can become more specific.

If you are concerned about the game of Heroes, now is the time to get more involved. There have been several posts that get down to the raw and dirty parts of this column. Some people have gone into detail about the map editor, which is very important. Others have spoken about the combat system, very much the same.

We need to discuss more about the creatures from the entire series. What creatures are you missing, graphically or tactically? What if it is something else? Is there a new creature that you'd like to create? I am speaking to you all.

The campaign mode has been addressed by a few, but not entirely in a specific nature. At this point, the game needs to be divided into important sections and we all know what those are....

Time keeps on ticking and the world keeps on running from time. Please post issues that are specific and spend at least 50-200+ words on the topic.
Instead of using generalizations, explain the issue in laymens terms as best as you can. So far, more than 7 people have replied in this fashion.

Thank you and welcome the new world of Heroes!

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Postby Kristo » May 5 2009, 4:02

Ok, you asked for it, you got it. :-D

I'd like to see the Heroes series return to its roots as a kingdom-scale strategy game. The fantasy creatures and magic spells provide the atmosphere. The heroes are the famous generals that everyone remembers (e.g., Rommel or Patton). The gameplay is focused on controlling territory and solving the problem of how one empire conquers another. These core "beliefs" imply the following deviations from the more recent Heroes games.

1. De-emphasize the creatures. Special abilities and alternate upgrades are interesting concepts, but this isn't Creatures of Might and Magic. We're trying to fight a war here; we can't get too bogged down in this stuff. A mix of H2 and H4 would be ideal I think.

2. Scale the adventure map better. Remember that the guy on horseback represents an entire army. It doesn't mean you can't zoom way in with the camera, but it does mean the art has to be proportioned accordingly. H5 was an army-scale game shoehorned into a party-scale RPG world. Tucking an artifact behind a tree makes no sense when one tile is perhaps a mile wide.

3. Heroes are leaders. The H5 skill and ability system is awesome but I think the skills and spells need to be tailored more toward affecting the entire battlefield. Patton didn't cast Lightning Bolt to take out a squad of troops. His presence affected the outcome of the battle as a whole. This definitely affects the design of the skill and magic systems - something that will have to be fleshed out further.

I have more thoughts but they're not organized at the moment. If you guys want to discuss these ideas, feel free to ask questions, throw darts, etc.
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Postby ThunderTitan » May 5 2009, 6:57

Each creature having special abilities is hardly something that takes away from the kingdom-scale strategy game... Fix the feel of the adventure map (and the small BF's) and those are just things that make the battles better.

Alternative upgrades do just make for too many names and abilities to make for each, which becomes annoying... that's why i'd prefer the H4 system with some ability to change between structures for a fee.

As for the heroes... the spells are fine as they are, with some being able to affect the whole BF and others just a few creatures... what they need to do is make a hero with no spells (shouts included) a viable alternative...
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Postby Bandobras Took » May 5 2009, 13:23

Kristo wrote:2. Scale the adventure map better. Remember that the guy on horseback represents an entire army. It doesn't mean you can't zoom way in with the camera, but it does mean the art has to be proportioned accordingly. H5 was an army-scale game shoehorned into a party-scale RPG world. Tucking an artifact behind a tree makes no sense when one tile is perhaps a mile wide.


I believe Heroes IV was a culprit here, as well. It was much harder to hide artifacts behind trees in games before IV.

http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=100, point 4.6.
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Town Structure and designs

Postby astral76minor » May 5 2009, 22:55

What town design and layout is the most ideal? Apparently, the H5 town design is out the window, unless it is similar to the upgrades in H3. So would a mix between H3 and H5 suffice?

As for the adventure map, H5 still had the option of scaling it down to classic heroes mode. Is this good enough? Using old graphics is obviously not the answer since the game has to appeal to a wider audience.

I can see a Heroes game based upon pure strategy and not so much fancy effects, then again I also see less popularity, unfortunately....

I agree with Asheera, stick with the square tiles for combat.

And the music, heck, there is a way to put your own music in anyway, so that is not much of a topic.

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Postby Sir Dabbler » May 6 2009, 0:04

Add to my wish list 'power ups' that are random and not always good. It could have an alignment so it favored similar alignments and yet could 'zap' opposing alignments. I perfer the random. This would add a unknown factor to the adventuring; risk/reward.

And a control zone around a troop when engaged in battle. The opposing troop could move up to but stop in control zone. The next turn they could rush past. As an option how about no control zone but a free attack as they move by.

Undead heroes should have option for ability to raise dead troops on either side. And should be of that troop; example Titans get killed in your army your opponent raises them against you as Undead Titans. This would have to be an 'upper' level ability. Or a powerful Staff. Food for thought.

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Re: Town Structure and designs

Postby Kristo » May 6 2009, 3:49

astral76minor wrote:As for the adventure map, H5 still had the option of scaling it down to classic heroes mode. Is this good enough? Using old graphics is obviously not the answer since the game has to appeal to a wider audience.

Right-sized graphics don't have to be old graphics. I'm not sure how to quantify my point here. In H5, the castles were too large and the trees were too tall. Whatever your zoom level, you felt like you were leading a guy on a horse, not an entire army. It affected gameplay as well. It should not take 3 turns for an army to make a lap of a castle. As an example of what I mean, take a look at some of the early screens from Elemental. They seem to get it right.

astral76minor wrote:I can see a Heroes game based upon pure strategy and not so much fancy effects, then again I also see less popularity, unfortunately....

Yeah, I can definitely see Ubisoft reading my comments and saying, "If you want Heroes 2, you know where to find it." I'd be disappointed, but no more so than I am now.
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