Heroes of Might & Magic III: Horn of the Abyss

Mods and development for mods.

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Zamolxis
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Postby Zamolxis » Oct 4 2008, 19:03

@Salamandre:

Regarding playing WoG, I'm not sure what you mean. Even on a forum like this which most of us visit only like once a month (because we know there's not gonna be any update soon), you immediately got 3-4 replies saying the game is still hot. But rest assure there are way more fans still playing it - even if they're not active here. The fact that H3 still sells better than H5 on Amazon (as sb pointed out recently), I'm sure is at least partly thanks to WoG. Only in the last year I myself bought 2 more H3-related titles, to replace my old scratched disks, only because there is a WoG out there which allows me to play the game as I want.

And now regarding the Summon Creatures extra skill for Commander:

First, I actually said Attack Twice is my first choice to give away, once they'll extend the "all creatures attack twice" to Commanders as well. But yes, otherwise I would give away block/reduce defense (as well as champ.bonus/max.dam as mentioned) as there's nothing special about them - except for the mathematical aspect (less damage received / more damage inflicted).

Summon Creatures on the other had (and would have if reintroduced) several advantages:

- it was different/refreshing extra skill (not just a boring stats boosting one like most of the others)

- it was bringing the total elements of my army to 14: 3 special units + 7 regular units + 4 war machines (I'm not superstitious, but still 14 sounds better to me than 13)

- even if just for the eye-candy, I liked the symmetry of my army in the beginning of the battle: Commander in front/center, with Henchman on his left and Summoned stack on his right (now it's like there sth missing from my army in that part of the battlefield).

- it was bringing new flavor to the battles, thanks to different possible strategies offered by a summoned stack (while max.dam/reduce def. don't bring anything new in terms of strategies - and same for block, which only brings the element of luck, not really new strategies)

- it was still another incentive to level up faster, just to get a better creature in that slot, and then the satisfaction when you were managing to get that stack to a L7 creature

- and last but not least, it was making the commander more balanced, with little penalty to my army's strength as compared to what we have now (but only because it wasn't balanced well enough - which they didn't even try, as it was there for only 1 release). IMO the Commander is a bit overpowered as individual unit now, and I feel it would be better to have one of its individual skills replaced by one which actually strengthens the army as a whole.

You're asking if I tested "reduce def" in a scenario to see how "extraordinary" that is. Well, of course I did - as I mainly play scenarios - but frankly I didn't notice anything "extraordinary". What's so extraordinary about just inflicting some more damage? At least as compared to the Summon Creatures skill, which would bring strategic & visual variety, as well as strategic & visual balance.

Only thing that skill need was a slightly adjusted formula (was maybe a bit too powerful in the beginning, and certainly too week at high levels). Perhaps the mistake was that they linked it only with the commander, while the army size should have been taken into consideration as well. One thing is to have 1 month's worth of creatures from 1 alignment in your army, and another to have 7 stacks of 100 L7 creatures (in which case the summoned stack was a joke). I don't remember what the formula was, but I would have tweaked it down a bit and then added sth like 5% of Hero's total army strength.
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Salamandre
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Postby Salamandre » Oct 4 2008, 19:21

I am happy that you still like. My point was that people just spam the forums saying they wait new features then when they come, they do not play them.

How I know it? Look at the last map I did for WOG, more than 500 hours of work. It is a mod in itself, new creatures abilities( summon creatures as you request), new artefacts, new features never seen in WOG.

Any comment from the "I love wog" users? None. Feel I frustrated because of it? Yes and No. It is reality.

Most people just want new things to have a reason to post and make them selves look as active players. But they really are not. WoG is history.

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Postby Zamolxis » Oct 4 2008, 21:23

About your map - give it some time. I see you only created the thread 5 days ago. As said above - probably many are just like me - visiting this forum only once a month, just in case a miracle happened and there is an update to the project, but otherwise still playing WoG on a regular basis.

I would very much like to try your map now, but these days I'm involved in the VCMI Project (maybe same as ambitious as HotA, but in a different way - as it involves rewriting the code from scratch). Not only does it take most of my little free time but I wouldn't risk it to add new modding files in the Data folder which might affect the accuracy of my tests (unless your files don't overwrite any of the game standard files).

But your map seem intriguing to say the least, and I'll definitely give it a try soon (which, for a married man with with most of next week-ends already planned like me, means only in the beginning of November - not only will I have a free week-end then, but it'll be followed by a national holiday, ideal for some nice gaming -> and it'll most probably be your map) B-)
'Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former' - Albert Einstein

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind' - same guy

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Postby Storm-giant » Oct 4 2008, 22:14

@salamandre:I know that you made an insanity work on your maps, including learning ERM and so many events&triggers. And I know that there are people who post for saying ''this proyect is dead''. And when progress is showed, after a week they say ''no news?''. But that is a fact. When you give something to the people, part of them will ask for more soon while they could make constructive criticism&suggestions. Sometimes they say ''thats good work, keep up'' and after a few weeks they ask for more...
As for your maps, I've played now 10 minutes and enjoyed it, by sure I will play on december(after I pass the first exams) and I will give my opinions. Don't give up, you have really talent for heavy script maps, and I suggest you to take some 'vacations' and play other games, forget wog for some months and do whatever you prefer. I will play the other two maps when I have more time(easter,summer).
Concerning your sentence ''WoG is history'' I disagree, because I think that WoG is between dead and life->all will depend if either HotA or WoG 3.59 come out in less than year&1/2. I include WoG 3.59 because here they said on the english part that a website will come out ''The site should open maximum in one week''. I believe that HotA&WoG3.59 can raise h3 to be very played again.
Between, we have gone out topic, so if you want to discuss more, make a new topic call something like ''is WoG dead?''.
ok?

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Postby Zamolxis » Oct 4 2008, 22:32

Storm-giant wrote:...make a new topic call something like ''is WoG dead?''.

Don't do that. I would so bash such a thread, as I totally don't agree. :D

I know there's a question mark there, but just seeing "WoG" & "dead" in the same sentence bothers me. :P Just go for sth like "Where is WoG?" :)

For the rest, I agree it's time we close this off-topic!
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Postby Docent Picolan » Oct 5 2008, 19:45

2 All: all your questions will be answered in a short while by the team members; as for now, have a glimpse of a few latest screenshots (though previously linked to by some other person) ;|

19. Monsters - Sea Sorceress , Oceanid, Corsair, Skeleton sharpshooter, Skeleton Archer and standard skeleton.
Image

20. New artifacts. Some may be familiar. Guess it will be nice for you to recognize them =)
Image

21. Monsters – Mummy, Royal Mummy, Dragonhunter, Griffins (a bit improved graphics) and standard ones
Image

22. And – as a bonus for you – an old screenshot (we planned to post it in June). You can see a new terrain on it – The Desert. We use the Sand landmarks here – ‘cos they fit The Desert colors very well. There are some new map objects here – but you’ve seen some before.
Image

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Postby Avonu » Oct 5 2008, 20:48

Docent Picolan wrote:20. New artifacts. Some may be familiar. Guess it will be nice for you to recognize them =)

Items on hero: MM8 Full Helmet, H1 Witch's Broach of Magic, H2:PoL Holly Hammer, H2:PoL Battle Garb (also HoMM symbol), MM7 Fine Chain Armor, H4 Leprechaun's Ring

Items in 6 slots: MM8 Yew Bow (not sure name), H2:PoL Crystall Ball, H2 Golden Goose, MM7 Diamond/Moonstone, H3 Landmine spell, H1 Foremost Scroll of Knowledge

Items in backpack: MM8 Regnan Armor, MM8 Thorne Shield (not sure name), MM7 Sulfur with Mushroom, MM7 Mistic Wand, MM7 Witch's Amulet with (probably) H4 hypnose spell

Oh, and a catapult.

What I win? :D

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Postby Docent Picolan » Oct 5 2008, 21:13

What I win?

Ultimate Crown of Wise Ass :D

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Postby Burdon » Oct 6 2008, 15:42

The new ground tiles are excellent. I missed so much the desert from Homm2.

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Postby Archer » Oct 10 2008, 15:45

This project is really promising. I will definitely try it ASAP.
I have the same questions as the others though.
First of all, how is HotA related to previous WOG contents?
I like the Sea priestess and many of the new units.
Have you considered dark elves for neutral units? They could have different stats in the underworld and under the sun.

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Postby Aerosoldier » Oct 11 2008, 3:33

Release date is in winter, i'm from south america so when is winter in your country?
Oh Hypocrisy! A world full of n00bs Indeed!

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Postby Storm-giant » Oct 11 2008, 9:58

Aerosoldier wrote:Release date is in winter, i'm from south america so when is winter in your country?

When It's summer on your country :D

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Postby Archer » Oct 11 2008, 10:25

I'm getting more and more excited about this mod. Please give us some substantial answers and progress report. :)

Also, the Cove town site you gave in the starting post is not accessible.

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Postby Docent Picolan » Oct 11 2008, 18:29

Docent Picolan wrote:
What I win?

Ultimate Crown of Wise Ass :D

But, speaking seriously, - there has been a good deal of continuity between the chapters of the HoMM and M&M saga... all of the H1 artifacts make a reappearance in H2, just as well as numerous M&M items find a place in H3... we think it a sort of a nostalgic tribute to reintroduce some of the legacy stuff into the universe of Heroes 3, because there have been precedents.
---
1-Will you add new spells?

Of course there will be new spells – It’s one of the most important part of the addon. In 1.0 version there will be 18 new spells.

2-Will you add new secondary skills?

No this will ruin the game balance. The balance is very important for us because we want to improve HoMM3 balance to make it ideal.

3-Corcening the WoG new creatures-will you keep them?

We are going to have only 6 WoG monsters in our addon: Werewolf, Sorceress, Nightmare, Hellsteed, Dracolich, Ghost. And of course we’re making new models for them. You may see new Nightmares on the premier screenshots

I forgot what town will be added first

In 1.0 version of HoTA there will be the Cove town, in 2.0 – Cathedral, in 3.0 – Kronwerck

Also we have to say that many people do not understand completely what the HotA addon is. And this is bad. Our project is not a WoG improvement addon, it is an independent addon for classic original Heroes of Might and Magic 3 The Shadow of Death game. It is compatible with the WoG system and may be installed on the WoG 3.58 as well as on the SoD 3.0(3.1,3.2) game. And definitely we are going to import some good ideas from the WoG (which will not spoil the balance) but they will be re-made in our original HotA style. And this features will be changed to the core with new graphics and ERM scripts. As for an example – we will have a new Commander system with new graphics, scills and stats.

Have you considered dark elves for neutral units?

m.. maybe

Also, the Cove town site you gave in the starting post is not accessible.

We’ve closed the Cove website, because we’ll open a complex HotA website soon. There will be the Cove page also.

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 11 2008, 19:55

Since the project's campaign is set on Antagarich (I guess), what year will it take place in (A.S.)?

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Postby Archer » Oct 11 2008, 20:41

Thanks for the quick reply. Your "maybe" is quite promising for me. :-) I like all of your graphics so far! I imagine the dark elves as they are in classic books: dark skin, long silver-white hair and two sabres. In case of a female unit: it is a priestess with some magical wand, doing some nasty conjuring. :) Both of them could be spectacular. In fact, I'm dying to have them... Years ago I suggested them to the WOG team and they liked the idea, but nothing came out of it.

Now I understand your concept. A standalone expansion inspired by WOG. OTOH I can't imagine how can it work with so many different versions of the game: but that is your magic to do. ;)

You have very brave plans for future versions. I wish you have the strenght to accomplish such heroic deeds. I can't wait to see that new website. :D I will definitely promote it in several game and fan sites, if you accept my small help. :)
Last edited by Archer on Oct 11 2008, 20:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Avonu » Oct 11 2008, 20:42

I wanted to ask about somethnig but what it was? ;|
Ah, yes...
Did you think about return some of H2 features like cursed artfiacts (Fizbin of Misfortune is standard MM/HoMM example), picking artifacts only by leadership heroes or fighting with bandits/7 level monsters (IIRC it was in H3:RoE) and of course ghost abilities from H2 (here kitty kit... I'm mean peasant :D)?

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Postby Variol » Oct 12 2008, 11:03

I was actually just bouncing around, seeing what's new and I saw this. How very promising! It's always nice to get some new features&creatures in a game you love.

What about game mechanics though? In particular, the combat map. I find that despite all the changes, that part has not changed enough to make it really interesting. There are still too many creatures that can cross the screen in 1 round. I think it would be excellent if none could.

I know it may not be possible to change the combat map, but the creature speeds could be altered. The shooters just get tied up too fast IMHO.

I think this would give more of a feel of seeing an enemy from miles off, and starting combat at that point.

Foot troops could be a 1 or 2 speed (3 for very special units) mounted and steed type units 4-5ish, and fliers or special units 4-8 or maybe 9. This would make shooters useful more and they could be toned down or given 3-4 range adjustments. Maybe even have so that they can miss all together? I think this would also change the use of how (and which) spells are used in the game.

I have mixed feelings about the captain. If anything, stick 'em in the corner, not front and centre. I would get rid of the henchmen. They're just another unit and there are enough of those.

There sure a lot of nice weapons/armour/items to "draw" ;) from in the M&M 6-8 series.

(..think I'll check my latest version)

Edit: looks like I only have 3.5 right now. Can someone give me the link to download the 3.58 patch?

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Postby Pol » Oct 12 2008, 11:30

That would be 3.58f. And it's here for ages (although here's much newer script update) I think, peeking into the date, it's from 16.11 2004 exactly. The old download page is still valid, when using fileplanet server (requires free account).
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Postby Variol » Oct 12 2008, 12:00

I went there too, but do I have to download all those 8 parts separately?

What a nightmare!

I downloaded the 8 parts, but I don't know how to unpack them. It keeps asking me for part 2, which I downloaded, but don't know where it is.


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