changes to skill requirements for ultimate skills

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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 25 Sep 2006, 08:47

However, if I set it up so it took more levels to get one than the others, there would have inevitably have been complaints of favoritism from somebody else.
That's true...

25 is a little bit much... let's say 20... i reached 20 in almost every game...
and what I meant is require some expert skill but not necesarily certain perks.... i.e. require Expert Attack no matter what perks the user has in Attack... even if he has no perks, just Exp Attack...
That way everyone would be free to choose their skill tree and benefit from the ultimate...

About the unbalance between the ultimates... well... when I'm thinking balancing a game I'm thinking more about multiplayer...
Now Sylvan is already strong enough... imagine how it would be like to play against a human player who has Nature's Luck... what chances would you have of beating that? And Rage of the elements will surely not help...
That's why I said to make it a little difficult to get... so you would have a chance to defeat your opponent before he gets nature's luck...

I admit though that It's very hard to balance this without having the actual source codes...

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Unread postby Tenchifew » 25 Sep 2006, 22:18

one question: does this mod function with 1.0 version also?
I am playing through the single player campaign at the moment 1.0 because i found 1.3 to be a little bit too easy but i would really like to be able to try out the ultimates in this campaign.

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Sir_Toejam
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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 25 Sep 2006, 23:34

one question: does this mod function with 1.0 version also?
the files it supercedes are contained in the original data.pak file, so it should work fine.

do you know how to use the console cheat commands?

you can quickly test it by using the command to give your hero experience until you get the skills needed to see if it works for ya.

I don't think it would make a difference for this particular mod, but just to be on the safe side, make sure you test it on a map you have loaded after the installation of the mod.

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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 25 Sep 2006, 23:37

About the unbalance between the ultimates... well... when I'm thinking balancing a game I'm thinking more about multiplayer...
Now Sylvan is already strong enough... imagine how it would be like to play against a human player who has Nature's Luck... what chances would you have of beating that? And Rage of the elements will surely not help...
That's why I said to make it a little difficult to get... so you would have a chance to defeat your opponent before he gets nature's luck...
yes, that's why i chose the war machines path for nature's luck. it's both off the beaten track and supposedly harder to obtain to begin with.

someone mentioned 2% chance, but it does seem a bit higher than that.

I will probably rework the skillsets again later this week, if you have any more thoughts. If it's a significant change, I might release a different version.

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Unread postby Tenchifew » 26 Sep 2006, 01:49

Thank you for swift response - it worked beautifully after i restarted the map. (tested with console as you suggested)

Just one thing to add to the discussion about prerequisites: i also think it would be enough to stop by cold steel for necropolis, since i don't think the necro ultimate is strong enough to abandon archery for it. I would rather take other skills than the ultimate on this terms - but this is just my opinion. I would also rather see the summoning magic than dark magic as prerequiste - but it also is my biased view of the necromant.

It is a great mod and thank you for your work!

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Unread postby Panda Tar » 26 Sep 2006, 19:39

I could only reach Arcane Omnithing when reached level 27 (not that luck when leveling up to pick up skills) :D .

But it was kind of funny having it and seeing a whole description of spells learned on the top of the screen for several minutes.
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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 27 Sep 2006, 15:55

Hi,

I was thinking about the ultimates... and I wanted to make some suggestions... I guess we should also get some other inputs...
So... IMO the requierements should be like this:
(in the paranthesys I put the number of skill points required)

Haven(12):(basically the same as previous)

-Expert Counterstrike(3)
-Retribution(3) - Attack
-Aura of swiftness(6) - Leadership
Comment: it is a rather weak ultimate and so, even if theoretically you might get it at level 10-12, it's ok...

Inferno(15):(the idea here is to require all the gating boosters):

-Gating(3)
-Swift Gating(4) - Logistics
-Gate Master(4) - Leadership
-Swarming Gate(4) - Luck
Comment: due to the the fact that 3 basic skills(Log, Lead, Luck) are required to complete the tree it would make it more difficult to get even if it needs basically 15 level points.

Necropolis(14):(Good skills for the Necro)

-Necromancy(3)
-Banshee Howl, Skeleton Archers, Eternal Servitude(3)
-Mark of the Necromancer(4) - Dark Magic
-Expert Attack(3)
-Battle Frenzy(1) - Attack
Comment: stronger than the Haven ultimate, but slightly weaker than Inferno... so basically the same level points to achieve, but easier to build... and any decent necromancer would pick Attack, Battle Frenzy and Dark Magic...

Dungeon(12):(Almost the same as before)

-Expert Irresistible Magic(3)
-Elemental Vision(1)
-Empowered Spells(1)
-Secrets of destruction(3) - Destruction Magic
-Dark Revelation(4) - Enlightment
Comment: The only thing that differs is Dark Revelation in stead of Wizard's Renewal thus allowing you to take Intelligence.

Sylvan(16 or 18): (I'm a little puzzled here)

-Expert Avenger(3)
-Imbue Arrow, Deadeye Shot, Rain of Arrows(3)
-Dead's Man Luck(6) - Luck
-Nature's Wrath(4) - Attack or Familiar Ground(6) - Logistics
Comment: not so sure about this one... I haven't played Sylvan that much... so I don't know exactly what would be optimal. But as I think it is the strongest ultimate it should have a higher set of requierements.

Academy(13):(it's ok the way it is - just an alternative):

-Expert Artificier(3)
-Spoils of war(4) - Luck or Counterspell(4) - Sorcery
-Graduate(6) - Enlightment
Comment: honestly, I don't know which skill is more useful Sorcery or Luck...resources are so demanded now and the perks of sorcery are more useful for a Warlock than a Wizard(IMO). Although Sorcery is not a bad skill.... especially for someone who will know all the spells. The perks of Enlightment are not that great, but I find Enlightment very useful for a Wizard.

Let's debate on this a little...

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Unread postby Metathron » 27 Sep 2006, 17:19

On the whole, I like the idea of different factions having different levels of difficulty for achieving their ultimate abilities, because, let's face it, they are far from being on the same level of power. It is quite obvious that the Sylvan ultimate is the most powerful, clearly followed by Inferno, and then it's a toss up between Academy, Dungeon and Necropolis. Without a doubt, Haven's ultimate is the weakest/most useless. When I obtained it, I didn't even know what to do with it exactly.
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Unread postby Naskoni » 27 Sep 2006, 17:51

Hmmm, I have to say that for the most part I think I like what okran proposed there very much, so much I think it's worth a mod! ;)

I've always thought that some ultimates are worth more than others - the idea of having different difficulty for achieving them is really nice indeed - me like! :-D

EDIT: Well, thinking about the ultimates it seems they are not unlike a double edged sword - on one hand if they follow what most consider to be the "optimum" path for a faction and you make the ultimate accessible enough(t) then you more or less enforce (or rather strongly stimulate) a certain development path as everybody with half a brain would aim for the ultimate (or so I think), which if true will make the game somewhat more limited and thus less fun.

On the other hand if you make the ultimates such that they would require not so "optimal" development choices you might "alienate" people from even trying to take the ultimate or in a way make them "pay" for getting it, provided the benefit is greater for them than the "cost", but you leave a clear choice and presumably more open-ended gameplay.

To be absolutely honest - I'm not sure which approach is better... :thinking:

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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 27 Sep 2006, 18:48

When I obtained it, I didn't even know what to do with it exactly.
as of 1.3, it's my understanding that it's an essentially unlimited defensive capability.

you can cast it on as many enemy stacks as you wish, and every time they attack, they get a retaliation strike from your hero.

with a high level hero, that adds up pretty quick.

still not as strong as sylvan, but not as weak as folks seem to think, either.

as to the rest, thanks for all the input.

Okrane -

in studying how the skill tress work,adding another skill tree realistically adds a lot more levels to gaining the ultimate.

your tree for gating, for example, would more likely end up getting the skill somewhere around level 25. Most maps usually don't get your heroes get much beyond level 20 or so.

I think the solution to balancing the skills doesn't lie in making them more difficult to obtain, per se, but in making them more equal to begin with.

example:

we could make the Haven skill so it returns triple damage on retaliation. with unlimited usage, that quickly becomes a very lethal skill.

the whole point of this mod is to actually MAKE them easier to get, so complicating the issue by adding yet more skill trees kinda defeats the purpose.

still thinking... still absorbing comments.

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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 28 Sep 2006, 08:41

Well, if we could actually modify the way each ultimate works I'd agree that it would be better to balance their power and not the number of requierements. Still I don't know if that can be done...
as of 1.3, it's my understanding that it's an essentially unlimited defensive capability.

you can cast it on as many enemy stacks as you wish, and every time they attack, they get a retaliation strike from your hero.
Really? I think that is Mark of the damned... Retal strike you can cast it on only one of your troops, and each time an ennemy attacks it in melee(doesn't work if the enemy retaliates) the hero will strike that enemy...

@Naskoni


EDIT: Well, thinking about the ultimates it seems they are not unlike a double edged sword - on one hand if they follow what most consider to be the "optimum" path for a faction and you make the ultimate accessible enough(t) then you more or less enforce (or rather strongly stimulate) a certain development path as everybody with half a brain would aim for the ultimate (or so I think), which if true will make the game somewhat more limited and thus less fun.

On the other hand if you make the ultimates such that they would require not so "optimal" development choices you might "alienate" people from even trying to take the ultimate or in a way make them "pay" for getting it, provided the benefit is greater for them than the "cost", but you leave a clear choice and presumably more open-ended gameplay.
I kinda don't agree... if the ultimate were a two edge sword, personally I would never pick it. I would always go for the well customised skill set, which allows a better development of your hero, mostly because the ultimate is not that useful... The power of this skill should be enough to compensate all those other skills you are missing... and that's not the case... well maybe Sylvan is an exception...
And nonetheless... considering the way you get to choose your skills and the fact that your hero's development is set at the begining of the game makes it hard to get the ultimate... what if you sacrifice your developement by choosing some unoptimal skills and you end up missing the ultimate just because, at some point, you are not offered the skill you need...

I'm starting to think that the requierements for the ultimate should be Expert Racial Skill + level 20... that way you don't restrain any possible developement and you get it at an acceptable level...

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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 29 Sep 2006, 15:23

I'm starting to think that the requierements for the ultimate should be Expert Racial Skill + level 20... that way you don't restrain any possible developement and you get it at an acceptable level...
that would kinda take the "fun" out of wondering when (and whether) you would get it on any specific map, but that's a legitimate strategy, to be sure.

kind of "guaranteed by level 20" kind of thing.

I won't change this mod to do that, but I'd be happy to make a different version that does it like you describe.

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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 29 Sep 2006, 17:55

In completion to my post about the requierements. i wasn't so sure about Sylvans so I played a little more.

and regarding their skill set I have the following inputs:

- Imbue ballista should require Imbue Arrow, as you can't imbue your ballista without the ability...

- I'd love to have Nature's Wrath requirement changed to Archery... because I'd love to have fire arrows and archery on a sylvan hero

As for the Ultimate...Nature's wrath and Dead Man's Luck sound cool... because they kind of compose the name of the ultimate... but still don't know if that's the best way to go... it could be a little too easy...

I was thinking about a much harder variant that would require

Expert Avenger(3)
Rain of arrows, Deadeye shot(2)
Imbue Ballista(5) - with Imbue arrow as a prereq
Nature's Wrath(4)
Basic Luck(1) - since you could go without taking luck and that's not fair

the difficulty being the fact that according to the manual a Ranger has only 2% chance of getting Attack and War Machines...

Could we get the opinion of a pro in Sylvan? I'd prefer if someone here who has played Sylvan alot could tell us what he thinks... what would he go for?
in studying how the skill tress work,adding another skill tree realistically adds a lot more levels to gaining the ultimate.

your tree for gating, for example, would more likely end up getting the skill somewhere around level 25. Most maps usually don't get your heroes get much beyond level 20 or so.
true. But it is clear that with some Ultimates you would simply rule the game, whereas others are just a good addition. Recently I discovered Academy's ultimate... got it at level 17 and after that i simply owned everything, even armies much stronger than mine... I played with Jhora, on a rather difficult map... because I had mages when the ennemies had angels. I didn't take any magic skills, and consequently I didn't upgrade the mage guild higher than lvl 2, so I had some resources to spare.
When I got the ultimate, all I cast was Puppet Master, then Phoenix, then some Resurections if necesary... You can guess the outcome...

To sum up I think making a mod that would make the ultimates accesible and balanced is kind of impossible. Some of them are simply too strong to get before level 20 and the others too weak to get too late. To make a list:

Unstopable Charge: only useful if got very soon
Urgash's call: too strong before level 20
Nature's Luck: always too strong
Arcane Omniscience: too strong if got early, not so useful if got too late(because you would already build mage guilds and take magic skills)
Rage of the Elements: should get this mid-game
Howl of Terror: mid game

If we agree on the distribution of the skills above this would mean that in average you should get the skills at much different levels. So I'm guessing, in average the levels should be:

Unstopable Charge: 12
Urgash's call: 22
Nature's Luck: 25
Arcane Omniscience: 20
Rage of the Elements: 17-18
Howl of Terror: 17-18

At least this would reflect the rating of the ultimates... I'm gonna start a thread to see how others see these ratings...

Sorry for the huge post... I hope you can bear the reading...

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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 03 Oct 2006, 20:56

proceeding slowly, I made some changes based on the suggestions here:

Dungeon:

Rage of Elements

- Secrets of Destruction (destructive magic)
- Erratic Mana and Magic Insight (sorcery)


Necropolis:

Howl of Terror

- Cold Steel (attack)
- Spirit Link, Master of Mind (Dark Magic)

Preserve:

Nature's Luck

- Dead Man's Curse (luck)
- Know Your Enemy (enlightenment)

update available in the mod section.
Last edited by Sir_Toejam on 03 Oct 2006, 21:50, edited 1 time in total.

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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 03 Oct 2006, 21:35

cool... they sound nice

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Sir_Toejam
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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 21 Nov 2006, 04:44

I redid the mod for the HOF expansion:

ADDED:

dwarves:

Absolute protection:

-Preparation
-Dwarven Luck

...and as usual, all the basic runemagic skills.

If anybody wants it, I'll post it tommorrow.

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okrane
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Unread postby okrane » 21 Nov 2006, 19:57

this absolute protection is again... sooo strong...
they should change the other ultimates(xcept sylvan's)... I don't know how they imagine this is balanced...

I was thinking of something like
haven having an ultimate that gives them always good morale,
Academy should in addition use only 50 of their initiative to cast the spells
Necro extra -6 morale sounds good but there shouldn't be a -5 limit... maybe in combination with a sorrow spell you would get your oponent to -9 or even -10
inferno... no idea... still thinking...

anyway... there is no way to mod this... so I guess I'm still left wandering why don't they realise that ultimates are
a) almost impossible to get
b) not at all balanced / equivalent in power

I still believe that if we change the requirements according to their relative power it would make them more balanced at least...

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Unread postby Fausto » 23 Nov 2006, 19:21

This mod is actually quite good, but we need one for the expation pack =P

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Unread postby Sir_Toejam » 23 Nov 2006, 19:42

uh, i'll take that as a request to post the update i made for the expansion pack then?

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Unread postby Fausto » 23 Nov 2006, 20:12

uh, i'll take that as a request to post the update i made for the expansion pack then?
haha, yea that would be nice actually, but in other words: 'Yes please!'.


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