changes to skill requirements for ultimate skills

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Sir_Toejam
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changes to skill requirements for ultimate skills

Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 18 2006, 6:38

I found the difficulty in obtaining ultimate skills for each faction to be (almost) appropriate for the single-player campaigns, but they are unrealistic for just about anything else. Basically, you need to get to about level 30 to have a shot at getting enough skills. Let's face it, that doesn't happen very often on a single map (or in multiplayer).

so... I've taken on changing the skill requirements for the ultimate skills for each faction.

I'm shooting for it being about twice as easy to obtain, so someone obtaining levels 15-20 say, has an excellent chance of getting it, if they plan for it.

here's the general things I plan on:

-they will require expert level in the faction skill (like expert gating).

-they still will be a bit "off" of the obvious upgrade paths, just like they are now (i.e., the player will have to make a conscious choice to pick the necessary skills, as they won't always be the "best" for a given faction).

-they will not require more than two complete skill trees, in addition to the expert level faction skill.

-they won't require a skill tree that is extremely rare for a given faction (like offense for academy).

-every hero will be able to obtain the ultimate skill for their faction (which isn't the case as it is now).

this will be the same for everybody, player and AI alike, so there is the possibility that you might actually face an AI player with an ultimate skill (though still very unlikely, based on how I see the AI level its heroes).

if anybody else has some specific suggestions, feel free.

I'm starting work on it right now, and expect I will put up a beta tommorrow sometime.

EDIT: 11/20

I updated the mod for the HOF expansion, and added a fasttrack for the dwarves. see the last post in the thread for details.
Last edited by Sir_Toejam on Nov 21 2006, 4:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Mytical
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Postby Mytical » Sep 18 2006, 6:51

oh oh *jumps up and down with hand raised* I volunteer to test .....me me! *giggles* Seriously though will be happy to test this wonderful idea for you.
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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Sep 18 2006, 7:51

By two complete trees,are you refering to having expert level and any three feats?If that is so,I think it should be two and a half(two complete and one just at expert level,or one with at least one feat).

Inferno could require luck and logistics(and maybe summoning magic)

Knight would be attack and defense(and maybe logistics)

Necro could be dark and enlightment(and maybe summoning)

Ranger could be attack and leadership(and maybe luck)

Warlock would be sorcery and enlightment(and maybe luck or destructive)

Wizards would be enlightment and luck(and maybe sorcery)

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 18 2006, 10:21

By two complete trees,are you refering to having expert level and any three feats?If that is so,I think it should be two and a half(two complete and one just at expert level,or one with at least one feat).


agreed; as i started to program in the changes, there was enough overlap that I added about half of a third tree for most. I tried to make two of the trees make sense for the class, and one tree be an "upopular" choice, but one that is still fairly available. I tried to leave out skill trees that one never seems to get for a given faction, like offense for academy.

I changed the requirement for expert level in the basic faction skill, to requiring all specializations instead.

ultimates will require 12-14 individual picks to get there. which means likely the player has a legit chance to obtain utlimate specialization somewhere between level 15 and 20, which is what I was going for here.

I didn't take me as long as i thought, and I already have the beta ready for testing.

I'll upload it in about 30 mins., as soon as i finish the readme and pak it up.

I'll make clear it is a beta version.

cheers

edit:

lol. I probably should at least test it myself first, so I'll go ahead and do that and upload it in a few hours.

ahh, good thing I did. It's still pretty hard to get the skill before level 20.

plus, i realized i also need to modify the reference tables as well as the unique skill tables.

well, I'm gettin some sleep and will tackle it again in the morning (for me).

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 18 2006, 20:37

Ok, initial testing with 2.5 skill trees complete.

result was that ulitmate specialization was achieved between levels 20 and 25.

I suppose I should leave this, as it seems to be consistent, and make another version that gets it down to 15- 20.

I'm thinking that it takes about 10 levels for each complete skill tree, so I'm going to try 1.75 trees (plus all specializations) and see how that works out.

otherwise, the mod at least works correctly.

edit:

yes indeed, it is amazingly consistent. the formula is, multiply the skill trees by 10, and add the number of specializations required.

so if i use 1.25 skill trees (full feats for one tree, and a single perk for another), and require all specializations, the earliest one can get ultimate specialization is level 15 (and that only if the hero starts with one of the required skill trees and perks). Example: Jhora can get it at the earliest at level 16. If she started with insight instead of training, she could get it at 15. the game seems to require expert level in whatever skill trees are involved in getting the ulitmate specialization, regardless of the perks or feats added.

so, I've got the formula for getting ultimate in the 15-20 level range. this is entirely tweakable, to single level variables, so I can easily move the range up or down.

I've just got to finish programming in the rest of the factions (I used the academy to test), and I should have it ready in about an hour or so.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 19 2006, 1:08

Beta is finished!

You can grab it here:

http://www.celestialheavens.com/homm5/m ... ttrack.zip

feedback welcome.

cheers

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 19 2006, 5:19

I also modified Ossir's starting perk from resistance to soldier's luck, so he can get the nature's luck skill.

btw, this works regardless of whether or not you are using the skill mod above (Ossir NEVER could get the skill before, either):

http://www.celestialheavens.com/homm5/m ... erluck.zip

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Postby Agemo1 » Sep 20 2006, 4:52

im a noob in heroes of might and magic 5 and i would like to ask for an example of a character and how do you get the ultimate skill, im confused on how to do it. Why Jhora gets the ultimate at a later level?

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 20 2006, 5:16

you should post that question in the general forum. also, you should check out the Celestial heaven h5 game manual:

Nah, I was seconding his criticism of computer simulations being touted as evidence for speciation.

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Postby Agemo1 » Sep 20 2006, 20:30

im sorry for the confusion of my last post, i was asking for an example using the mod, when you say specializations you mean the capacities of the respective ability and which abilities you need, i was asking an example so you can answer the questions that i asked before

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Postby Mytical » Sep 20 2006, 20:42

Nube mod tester, where do I put the files? *looks utterly confused*
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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 20 2006, 21:15

I thought i put instructions in the readme file?

let me know if I didn't.

ITMT:

open the zip file, therein you will find the fasttrack.pak file.

extract that file to your data directory.

(don't extract what's in the pak file itself, just put the whole .pak file in your data directory).

the readme file also contains the specific changes made, so you can figure out which trees to go for.

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 20 2006, 21:30

agemo-

here's an example, using Ossir, since i modded him as well:

ossir starts with the luck skill, and with the added soldier's luck perk.

for him to get the ultimate specialization for his faction (nature's luck), he requires the feats from the following treees:

Sylvan:

Nature's Luck

- Dead Man's Curse (luck)
- Imbue Ballista (war machines)

he also requires all of the avenger specializations:

rain of arrows, imbue arrow, deadeye shot.

to see exactly what path you need to follow to get these feats, you can check out the skills section in the CH h5 manual:

http://www.celestialheavens.com/557

so, for ossir, you would have to pick:

avenger:

rain of arrows, imbue arrow, deadeye shot

luck:

elven luck, dead man's curse

war machines:

ballista, imbue ballista.

sounds simple, but to be able to select all of these, the computer also will basically force you to obtain expert luck, expert avenger, and expert war machines.

so counting all that up:

expert avenger (2 picks)

the 3 specializations (3 picks)

expert luck (2 picks)

the two luck feats (2 picks)

expert war machines (3 picks)

ballista (perk - 1 pick)

imbue ballista (feat - 1 pick)

and then, finally, nature's luck (1 pick)

so it takes a minimum of 15 levels for Ossir to gain the ultimate special for his faction.

suffice to say, it's also unlikely you will be offered the exact skills needed to get it right at 15, so more likely you will get it somewhere between 16 and 20.

I hope that helps.

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Postby Mytical » Sep 20 2006, 21:56

Very Much so!!! Thanks and I will test it as soon as I can :). I look forward to this, sounds fun.
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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 21 2006, 7:05

have fun!

I find it much more useable now.

far better for having fun with the new custom maps that are starting to appear, and also for playing the multiplayer maps in hotseat mode.

a favor, if you would:

when you get a character with the ultimate special, can you make a screenshot for me?

it's just one of those things i haven't gotten around to yet cause i'm too busy making new mods :)

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Postby Tarenor » Sep 21 2006, 7:08

It's great, finally someone handy has made ultimate specializations acessible, meny thanks a lot.

I have a some suggestion for better consequentiality of skills.

1) Sylvan
There is no reason to have skill Imbue ballista as a requirement for Nature's luck. More corresponding is Know your enemy abilty (enlightment). In addition the rangers have knowledge as a prefered primary skill, (using luck in combat also depends on hero's intelligence) and after all: The nation of elves living in deep forest would have problems with manipulation of war machines, so it is little bit unfitting

2)Necromancer
This is not so distinctive, but it is better, I think: Necromancer heroes has a defense as a one of prefered primary skills so it would be better to give there Defense skill (resistence) instead of Attack skill.

I expect that requirements for another abilities remains, so some ability needs ability from another skill. So my suggestion are only these two (last change could be Defense instead of Leadership for Knight but it is really not necessery).

Other requirements are flawless.

I would like to say, that your idea and concept of gaining ultimate abilities is very sophisticated. Once again, thanks a lot.
HOManiac :-)

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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 21 2006, 7:20

There is no reason to have skill Imbue ballista as a requirement for Nature's luck.


i deliberately chose obtuse skills (as much as possible without too much duplication), just like the original skill trees were often not the obvious choices.

with the elves, look at the bright side: you get a chance to explore the very powerful triple imbued ballista skill.

put implosion on that sucker and watch that big high level enemy stack disappear.

Not to say i wouldn't consider changing it, but i did want to make the specials at least somewhat off the beaten track to obtain.

Once again, thanks a lot.


you're more than welcome. I enjoy tinkering with this stuff; got addicted to modding while playing NWN for a couple of years before I finally tired of it.

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Postby Tarenor » Sep 21 2006, 10:17

Sir_Toejam wrote:i deliberately chose obtuse skills (as much as possible without too much duplication), just like the original skill trees were often not the obvious choices.


I agree, that original skill wheel is very stupid in this case, but we don't need to follow it and make stupid combinations too. :)

Sir_Toejam wrote:with the elves, look at the bright side: you get a chance to explore the very powerful triple imbued ballista skill.
put implosion on that sucker and watch that big high level enemy stack disappear.

Well, your steps to make ulimate skill easier to reach give players chance to select three secondary skills of their choice like Imbue ballista skill.
To be honest, I really want to try it, this skill is very funny, but this doesn't mean that it is a good choice to have it as a requirement for Nature's luck.
HOManiac :-)

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Postby Mytical » Sep 21 2006, 10:42

I have tried this out and found great success. I really do like it. Sadly no screenshots...yet (kept forgetting cause I have a horrible memory). It works tho, and all the skills do help a lot to aliviate SOME of the issues I had :). Thanks alot ;).
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Postby Sir_Toejam » Sep 21 2006, 13:05

glad you are enjoying it.

I always did find the effort to get the specials not to be worth it before this.


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