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Veldrynus
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Postby Veldrynus » Jul 4 2008, 23:00

The druid is nice, but compared to everything else he sucks. Since the 1.10 patch his survival chances in Hell are minimal. My very well equipped werewolf druid using a Hellslayer+Shael, cannot manage to beat the ancients. It's enough for only one of them to have at least one of these enchantments: immune to physical, stoneskin, cursed, or extra strong, and winning the battle is impossible.
Not the best of all balances I've seen.
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Postby wimfrits » Jul 5 2008, 8:25

Panda Tar wrote:Haven't played much with a barbarian. Max of level 20, I think. :) He seemed a bit more too much in trouble sometimes, and I didn't enjoy it.


One of the only 2 characters that can always escape trouble (not counting the Enigma runeword) ;)

They say it's rather nice, but I grow sleepy just waiting the bear to strike once. It's soooo slow (in comparison to the wolf, that is :D).


6 socket phase blade + 6 Shael. Physical damage is pretty much irrelevant for the fireclaws bear, so attack speed is all you need in a weapon.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 5 2008, 9:36

Suleman wrote:The Sorceress's Description doesn't say anything like that.


Sure it doesn't: http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/classe ... ress.shtml

"A rebellious woman who has wrested the secrets of magic use from the male dominated Mage-Clans of the East"


But hey, let's only check the newer descriptions that don't contradict my opinion.
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Suleman
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Postby Suleman » Jul 5 2008, 11:12

ThunderTitan wrote:
Suleman wrote:The Sorceress's Description doesn't say anything like that.


Sure it doesn't: http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/classe ... ress.shtml

"A rebellious woman who has wrested the secrets of magic use from the male dominated Mage-Clans of the East"


But hey, let's only check the newer descriptions that don't contradict my opinion.

*facepalms*
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Postby Infiltrator » Jul 5 2008, 15:36

Veldrynus wrote:The druid is nice, but compared to everything else he sucks. Since the 1.10 patch his survival chances in Hell are minimal. My very well equipped werewolf druid using a Hellslayer+Shael, cannot manage to beat the ancients. It's enough for only one of them to have at least one of these enchantments: immune to physical, stoneskin, cursed, or extra strong, and winning the battle is impossible.
Not the best of all balances I've seen.


What is my experience is that the vast majority of druids are pure cannon fodder, but every once in awhile, a good druid just comes around the corner and rapes the living **** out of whatever class your playing.

I've talked to several people who believe their classes can dominate anything (hammerdins, ww/mb/kick sin) and asked them what do they fear most and they all said "a good druid".. I played druid but never a lot so I can't say things from that point of view, but I can say that druids are either piss easy or downright impossible to take down from a bone necro point of view.
Infiltrator out.

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Postby Meandor » Jul 5 2008, 16:12

Suleman wrote:*facepalms*


Seconded.
...

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Jul 6 2008, 2:35

Veldrynus wrote:The druid is nice, but compared to everything else he sucks. Since the 1.10 patch his survival chances in Hell are minimal. My very well equipped werewolf druid using a Hellslayer+Shael, cannot manage to beat the ancients. It's enough for only one of them to have at least one of these enchantments: immune to physical, stoneskin, cursed, or extra strong, and winning the battle is impossible.
Not the best of all balances I've seen.


I've played wolves and bears through hell in single player. In the other diablo thread I linked to a picture of my bear defeating Baal in Hell (not his first time.)

Shockwave-mauler bears are very safe. IAS on weapons is a key for good offense. Shockwave will be in a narrow beam or spread out depending on where you put your cursor. Wolves are a little more squishy but thowing in some dire wolves or a grizzly for a distraction helps.

For physical immunes you need a weaon that does elemental damage.

They say it's rather nice, but I grow sleepy just waiting the bear to strike once. It's soooo slow (in comparison to the wolf, that is ).

But the assassin was the most difficult to deal with in the hell, for me. I was a extremely strong fighter, but just getting next to the monster was so damn hard! Then I supposed I had to develop traps. It seemed that all my time was wasted at all.


Bears don't swing slow if you get a weapon that has lots of IAS on it. Ribcracker is is an awesome bear weapon, especially if you upgrade and sheal it. And Tomb Reaver is a very nice weapon.

Off weapon IAS doesn't have a tremendous effect on the speed of a bear's swing.

For the assassin use dragon flight (only one point is necessary) to teleport and kick the monster. With a kicker develop the death sentry trap to explode corpses and you'll clear monsters out pretty quickly.
Last edited by Grumpy Old Wizard on Jul 6 2008, 2:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Jul 6 2008, 2:51

wimfrits wrote:
Panda Tar wrote:It was pretty much good. I went through hell with it like that.


That's pretty good.
You can have a barbarian with more hit points, better attack damage, better resistance, better defense and more combat skills and still run into problems ;)

The firebear was hot for a while on battlenet though, but purely for player-vs-player combat.


Warcries are a key for barbarians. There are a lot of one point wonders that make life easier. The left side of the warcries tree (plus grim ward) is your crowd control. Depending on your build you can pump the War Cry skill some for some nice stun length.

Of course the bane of all melee characters in Oblivion Knights but the barbarian can use beserk when around OKs. Beserk attacks are not subject to Iron Maiden.
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."

Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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wimfrits
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Postby wimfrits » Jul 6 2008, 5:11

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:Of course the bane of all melee characters in Oblivion Knights but the barbarian can use beserk when around OKs. Beserk attacks are not subject to Iron Maiden.


Never knew that!
Rarely had problems with Oblivion Knights though. If you skim the sides of a group with whirlwind; and always in the direction of where you came, you have enough time to react to an Iron Maiden curse.
Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Jul 7 2008, 4:19

wimfrits wrote:
Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:Of course the bane of all melee characters in Oblivion Knights but the barbarian can use beserk when around OKs. Beserk attacks are not subject to Iron Maiden.


Never knew that!
Rarely had problems with Oblivion Knights though. If you skim the sides of a group with whirlwind; and always in the direction of where you came, you have enough time to react to an Iron Maiden curse.


Beserk drops your defense to zero. So it is best to howl to scare the other monsters away from the OK. Or you can use taunt to slowly lure creatures away. Or use Warcry to stun the monsters around the OK while you go beserk on the OKt. But the OKs like to move around after casting curses so Howl is usually the method I prefer when playing by myself.
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."

Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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wimfrits
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Postby wimfrits » Jul 7 2008, 17:00

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:Beserk drops your defense to zero. So it is best to howl to scare the other monsters away from the OK. Or you can use taunt to slowly lure creatures away. Or use Warcry to stun the monsters around the OK while you go beserk on the OKt.


In that case, I think I prefer to whirlwind ;)
A lot faster.

Berserk is a great skill for physical immunes though. 1 skill that allows you to transfer all of your normal damage to another type of damage is just awesome. No other class is capable of that.
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Postby Suleman » Jul 7 2008, 17:30

I've got a lvl 46 or so barbarian, played in single player, hardcore, un-twinked, with the "players 8"-command. It's my first ever WW barbarian, but I can't seem to get enough damage to make WW practical at all.

My weapon at the moment is a Rare Great Sword, quite a powerful one, with enough mana leech to make up for WW's high mana cost. I use the Sigon's set, except for the Shield, since I need 2-handed damage. I haven't yet put a single point in a weapon mastery, so that might be a factor.

My skill build at the moment is
1 point in all non-weapon passives
1 point in warcries required for Battle Orders
20 points in Battle Orders
1 point in Battle Command
1 point in skills required for WW
16 points in WW

So, is the character hopeless? How big damage do I need?
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Postby Panda Tar » Jul 7 2008, 19:21

wimfrits wrote:Never knew that!
Rarely had problems with Oblivion Knights though. If you skim the sides of a group with whirlwind; and always in the direction of where you came, you have enough time to react to an Iron Maiden curse.


I ALWAYS have a bit of problem with that curse. The problem is that attacking with fury, 5 strikes are automatically performed. If they cast that on you just by the time you attack, it'll most likely kill you. And that happens rather a lot if we go wildly in the middle of them.

I learned to dread that odd sound when that curse if cast, and I almost gag that sound alike: "Huurhu!".

Hum, a question:

I was playing with a Necromancer, developing Bone/Poison magic, with some curse support. How would I do that to live thoughout Hell then? When I developed Bone Spirit to 20, it was doing...a regular damage even for Nightmare, but it'd take too long to kill stronger foes in 'players 8' mode.

I just couldn't think that there would be much more to do in Hell but to die to some evil kins.
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Postby Infiltrator » Jul 7 2008, 21:12

Use Bone Spear when fighting monsters (you are taking it to 20 aren't you?), just round them up by going in circles and then impale them.
Infiltrator out.

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Jul 7 2008, 21:35

Suleman wrote:I've got a lvl 46 or so barbarian, played in single player, hardcore, un-twinked, with the "players 8"-command. It's my first ever WW barbarian, but I can't seem to get enough damage to make WW practical at all.

My weapon at the moment is a Rare Great Sword, quite a powerful one, with enough mana leech to make up for WW's high mana cost. I use the Sigon's set, except for the Shield, since I need 2-handed damage. I haven't yet put a single point in a weapon mastery, so that might be a factor.

My skill build at the moment is
1 point in all non-weapon passives
1 point in warcries required for Battle Orders
20 points in Battle Orders
1 point in Battle Command
1 point in skills required for WW
16 points in WW

So, is the character hopeless? How big damage do I need?


Yeah, mastery adds attack rating, damage, and critical strike. But playing untwinked you want to hold off on chosing a mastery for as long s you can.

I like mace weapons for WW becaust they require no dex. That's more you can put into stamina.

Did you already go to Nightmare? Or are you doing baal runs in normal? If you are in NM you may want to go back to normal and do Baal runs on okater 8. I do Baal runs until level 55. Your level vs the level of the monster makes a big difference as to how hard the monster is to hit and how easily it hits you.

With a low chance to hit you won't be doing much damage even with a good weapon.

Melee classes ae harder to play untwinked. Well, zealots are pretty easy.
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."

Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Jul 7 2008, 21:43

Panda Tar wrote:
wimfrits wrote:I was playing with a Necromancer, developing Bone/Poison magic, with some curse support. How would I do that to live thoughout Hell then? When I developed Bone Spirit to 20, it was doing...a regular damage even for Nightmare, but it'd take too long to kill stronger foes in 'players 8' mode.

I just couldn't think that there would be much more to do in Hell but to die to some evil kins.


For a Bone Necro I take Spear up to 20. I work on bone wall at the same time. Then next to max is bone prison. Then Spirit and whatever is left in teeth.

I pick up a clay golemn and golem master (one point wonders.) On point in amplify damage. Corpse explosion is your friend.

Put up a wall, kill, cast amp, and use corpse explosion.

Also, the "White" runeword is easy to make even in single player. It is the best bone weapon in the game. Shop for a non magical 2 socket wand with +3 bone spear on it at Drogan in Act 2. In Act 3 you can shop for a teleport staff. It shouldn't take long, they show up very often. This lets you teleport over your walls if you need to.

If you are playing hardcore then be sure to pick up revives. Otherwise you don't need them. You will likely find revive on a head at some time to use in places you might need it if you don't want to invest the points to get it.

Experiment with walls. Monsters love to attack walls and expecially prisons so you can cast them ahead of you as you go. Walls block some ranged attackes but some creatures can shoot over them.

Oh, and don't forget to use Bone Armor (invest only one point.)

Bone Necros do very well in Hell. You will have to spend a little time charm hunting for resistance charms of course.
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."

Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Postby Suleman » Jul 7 2008, 22:05

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:I like mace weapons for WW becaust they require no dex. That's more you can put into stamina.

Did you already go to Nightmare? Or are you doing baal runs in normal? If you are in NM you may want to go back to normal and do Baal runs on okater 8. I do Baal runs until level 55. Your level vs the level of the monster makes a big difference as to how hard the monster is to hit and how easily it hits you.

With a low chance to hit you won't be doing much damage even with a good weapon.

Melee classes ae harder to play untwinked. Well, zealots are pretty easy.

Yeah, I've used Mauls the most so far, but I did pick take enough dex to wield the Great Sword. That's... 70 or so.
At the moment, even Baal is enormously troublesome. It takes me almost half an hour to beat Baal down in melee on players 8. I've been running Meph and Diablo a bit, as well as Shenk. I haven't played the character in weeks since I'm concentrating on Baldur's Gate.
Honestly, with so many points in Battle Orders, I destroy enemies faster with Concentrate than with WW, regardless of how many there are.
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Postby Panda Tar » Jul 8 2008, 11:39

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:Put up a wall, kill, cast amp, and use corpse explosion.


*Look of dawning wonder and comprehension* :shh: Sure. :D

Also, the "White" runeword is easy to make even in single player. It is the best bone weapon in the game. Shop for a non magical 2 socket wand with +3 bone spear on it at Drogan in Act 2. In Act 3 you can shop for a teleport staff. It shouldn't take long, they show up very often. This lets you teleport over your walls if you need to.


Don't recall the White runeword...but I'll search it at FAQ.

Oh, and don't forget to use Bone Armor (invest only one point.)


I suppose this is just for that instant killing protection?

Thanks for the tips, GOW. Oh, and Infiltrator. And yes, I had a level 20 bone spear and I was developing bone walls...but I was going into revival. :(
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2. :panda:

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Postby Suleman » Jul 8 2008, 12:05

Panda Tar wrote:
Oh, and don't forget to use Bone Armor (invest only one point.)


I suppose this is just for that instant killing protection?

Bone Armor gets more points from synergies than from the skill itself. With Bone Wall and Prison maxed, the protection it offers is considerable.
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Postby Panda Tar » Jul 8 2008, 13:25

I see. I forgot that. :)

What about poison skills? Not worth?
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2. :panda:


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