My suggestion about creature statistics

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Do you agree with my suggestion?

Yes, I fully agree.
1
11%
Yes but I would (still) change something (write what).
2
22%
Definetly no, it's fine how it is now.
6
67%
I don't mind.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 9

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Hellburn
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My suggestion about creature statistics

Postby Hellburn » Mar 18 2008, 17:46

Well, here are several thing i would change:

Legend:
Actual Equilibris statistics -> My suggestion (reason why)

Life:
crossbowman
dmg: 2-3 -> 1-2 (I think that crossbowman are too strong for other 1 level creatures with their Long Range ability.)
hp: 10
att: 4, 9
def: 11
cost: 32
growth: 16 -> 18 (to recompensate the lose of dmg)

pikeman
dmg: 6-8
hp: 30 -> 34
att: 12 -> 14
def: 14 -> 15
cost: 150 -> 170
growth: 9 -> 7
(IMVHO pikemen is the worst level 2 creature, poor attack and defense ratings, average hp... good growth and specials do not recompensate it. It just NEEDS better statistics.)

ballista
dmg: 5-7
hp: 28
att: 15, 8 -> 16, 8 (it just needs that boost if it want to compete with medusa.)
def: 16
cost: 190
growth: 7

monk:
dmg: 10-15 -> 12-16 (10-15 dmg is very poor for 3 lvl shooter
hp: 55
att: 20, 10
def: 22
cost: 550
growth: 6
add spellbook (song of peace, healing, retribution, holy word, defender) add 12 mana.
(Another poor creature from life faction, it's the weakest shooter and it can't compete with venom spawn or cyclops, monks should fit as a spellcasters so why don't give the some useful life magic spells?)

champion:
dmg: 24-36
hp: 150
att: 25 -> 30
def: 25 -> 29
cost: 2000+2wood+2ore
growth: 4
(No doubt, champions are the weakest lvl 4 creatures, THEY NEED that boost, att and def ratings are weaker than few of 3 lvls <- don't make me laugh.)

Nature:
sprite
dmg: 1-2
hp: 7
att: 10
def: 10
cost: 22
growth: 16 -> 19 (decreasing growth from 23 to 16 drastically lowered their potential and usefulness)

elves
dmg: 2 x 3-4 = 6-8 -> 2x 2-5 = 4-10 (6-8 is same dmg as tigers do. statistically tigers are a lot better than elves so the latter needs a little boost.)
hp: 18 -> 21 (medusa and ballista have average hitpoints, elves must gain some if they want compete with them.)
att: 16, 8
def: 16
cost: 190 -> 180 (190 is as much as for ballista which is IMO a lot better than elves)
growth: 7

unicorns
dmg: 12-20
hp: 85
att: 20 -> 22 (unicorns are statisticaly poor and less useful than griffins, they don't fly, they do small dmg, they have average hitpoints, not good att and def ratings.)
def: 20 -> 22 (same here)
cost: 650
growth: 5

griffins
dmg: 16-22
hp: 95
att: 19 -> 21 (19 is the worst ratings at lvl 3, it needs that boost if it wants to compete with nagas or nightmares.)
def: 19 -> 20 (same here)
cost: 800
growth: 4

phoenix
dmg: 45-65
hp: 275
att: 28 -> 30 (little boost of att rating - it's too small IMO)
def: 28
cost: 4000+2mercury
growth: 2

faerie dragon
dmg: 34-50
hp: 210
att: 15
def: 29
cost: 4000+2gems
growth: 2
remove ring of fire, add cat reflex and first strike (ring of fire has the same offect as fireball)

Death:
skeleton
dmg: 1-2
hp: 10
att: 12
def: 12, 24 -> 10, 20
cost: 22
growth: 25 -> 20
(growth and def ratings are too much, especially if you get seletons from necromancy skill.)

ghost
dmg: 2-4 -> 3-5
hp: 15
att: 15 -> 16
def: 30
cost: 140
growth: 9 -> 8
(very good potential but almost useless with it's very very VERY low dmg, and the lowest hp of all lvl 2.)

cerberi
dmg: 4-6 -> 5-6
hp: 24 -> 30
att: 16
def: 16
cost: 190
growth: 7
(with that boost cerberi are worth their cost)

bone dragon
dmg: 45-65 -> 40-60
hp: 275 -> 250
att: 30
def: 30, 60
cost: 4000+2crystals
growth: 2
(bone dragons with their very good amount of hp, the best ranged def ratings and good dmg are IMO overpowered, especially when you get those with necromancy)

Order:
halflings
dmg: 1-2 -> 1-3 (little boost to get them more useful.)
hp: 8
att: 10, 5
def: 10
cost: 22
growth: 25

Chaos:
medusa
dmg: 3-6
hp: 24
att: 19 -> 18 (medusa is a very good shooter but i think it is a bit overpowered with comparision with other lvl 2 shooters)
def: 17 -> 16 (same here)
cost: 220
grotwh: 6

minotaur
dmg: 5-10
hp: 38
att: 19 -> 18 (decrease to get the balance betweenminotaur and medusa)
def: 18
cost: 230
growth: 7


Might:
harpy
dmg: 4-5 -> 4-6
hp: 24 -> 28
att: 16
def: 15
cost: 110 -> 130
growth: 8
(harpy needs a bit better dmg and hp ratings to compete with nomads)

cyclops
dmg: 12-18
hp: 95 -> 90
att: 26, 13
def: 24
cost: 750 -> 825
growth: 3
(cyclops is too cheap for his specials and effectivness)

Well, that's it :) I'm looking forward for any comments.

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Mar 18 2008, 21:31

oh no.. not another guy who proposes changes...
Heroes 4 is dead(see the adjacent thread) so any change is worthless.

BAD23ro

Postby BAD23ro » Mar 18 2008, 23:04

okrane wrote:oh no.. not another guy who proposes changes...
Heroes 4 is dead(see the adjacent thread) so any change is worthless.


Heroes IV isn't dead...Is played and even I don't play as Heroes III Wog, I still create mods for it.


For me Heroes V is dead right now. ;)

BAD23ro

Postby BAD23ro » Mar 18 2008, 23:06

@Hellburn

I'll comment just 2 units for now

Monks have death ward and double growth comparative with Venom, so is balanced.

Same think I can say about Champions.

I can agree with you, if Monks will have the same growth as Venom, then a boost can be applied to them.


At my home, I redone the stats for lots of creatures, including speed. Someday I'll post my own version, but not too soon.


Equilibris isn't the only team that knows to make changes.

I know myself how to do it. ;)

P.S If you need my help, I can help you later.
Last edited by BAD23ro on Mar 19 2008, 12:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Hellburn
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Postby Hellburn » Mar 19 2008, 8:06

okrane wrote:oh no.. not another guy who proposes changes...
Heroes 4 is dead(see the adjacent thread) so any change is worthless.

Say for yourself. I still play Heroes IV and I'd like to make this game more balanced.
BTW If you think that "4" is dead, then why are you visiting this forum section?

@BAD23ro:
Yes, I'm interested. I'd like to make changes myself but i don't know how to do that. If you can help, write me a PM.

How about other units? Do you think my suggestion is good?

EDIT:
How about reduce monks' growth to 5 and do not change their dmg (10-15) ?
It would be fair enough i think.

@champions: I think they are too weak, even with their good growth...

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Muszka
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Postby Muszka » Mar 19 2008, 12:52

Without taking it a personal offence, I advise you to play a little more H4 Equi. Than you'll realize, how balanced is the game. I played nearly every day Equi last year, and I'm satisfied with the stats. All factions have advantages, and weaknesses, but only compared to each other. To take you first example, the Crossbowman, may be the best lvl 1 creature, but not when compared to death, a bunch of skellies and imps can anihilate large groups of crossbowman. Also Halfling has the same damage against lvl 4 creatures.
You may see that the game is imba, but don't let you decisions to be driven by a hasty conclusion. Yes there are creatures and stats that change the odds, at least it seems so, but in fact the ability of the gamer to play H4-Equi does so.
"Rage against the system, the system, what kills the human spirit."

BAD23ro

Postby BAD23ro » Mar 19 2008, 12:58

@HellBurn

I really appreciated that you trying to improve the balance and that's very good. You have good suggestions...is all I can say for now :)

My own versions has lots of changes for units(for instance: devils have fire immunity)..I'll post my own version when I think is full ready and then we will see what will happen...

Well, I wrote a tutorial, how to make hard changes(abilties) and I'll post more in time.


The link can be found here:

http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7824


Also, I created some improved mod, you can find here:

http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8075



P.S I'll post when have time how you can change the stats, for now, just pst me what you need to change and I'll do it for you and send you the changes ;)

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Akul
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Postby Akul » Mar 19 2008, 16:13

okrane wrote:oh no.. not another guy who proposes changes...
Heroes 4 is dead(see the adjacent thread) so any change is worthless.


Okrane, did you even look at your own poll? 14 people say that they still play H4, 9 say they might re-install it once something interesting comes out (like equi) and only 2 people say it is dead.

In other words, half of voters disagree with you. Even if you would combine first and third option, the result is the same: H4 ain't dead.

Srry to OP for going off-topic.
I am back and ready to... ready to... post things.

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Mar 19 2008, 17:30

Akul wrote:
okrane wrote:oh no.. not another guy who proposes changes...
Heroes 4 is dead(see the adjacent thread) so any change is worthless.


Okrane, did you even look at your own poll? 14 people say that they still play H4, 9 say they might re-install it once something interesting comes out (like equi) and only 2 people say it is dead.

In other words, half of voters disagree with you. Even if you would combine first and third option, the result is the same: H4 ain't dead.

Srry to OP for going off-topic.


:)

well actually, those who think H4 is dead don't even bother checking the Equilibris section :p As I have never even looked in the WoG section for example...

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Postby TheUnknown » Mar 20 2008, 0:11

You must take other stuffs of the game into consideration.
Champions may look weak on the first sight but combined with tactics (movement improver) they can do insane damage (first strike is also a very strong ability).
You cannot say I want this creature to be able to compete with that one so we can change its statistics to ... Some creatures are especialy made to counter other creatures.
I am interested what do you think about the duel faire dragons angainst black dragons ??? THEY STAND NO CHANCE but both the dragons are example for great balance ...

Crossbowmans are fairly balanced (most people don't care much about lvl1 I think) they may have a good atack but have a pathetic defense also.

Pikeman are very good but only with tactics as long weapon owns.

Balistae are special for ranged attacks angainst castle and battlefields with many objects.

Monks rarerly die cos they're archers if you don't like them you can always choose crusaders I would rather nerf them a bit than boosting the monks.

Nature

I do agree about the sprites, they do have no retal but now they also have a pathetic damage and give high experience ... growth up please :D

Elves are good, if you have quick sand or wasp swarm elves make the best syenergie.

Do agree that unicorns are a bit underused (probably becose of the movement or the minor amount better statistics than griffin)

Griffins are good, if they have better defense they would be unstopable (we must also consider the units that they are good angainst).

Picking the number for the phoenixes surely took the game developers some TIME :D (they do have fire breath and the highest speed, they must have a drawback also)

Adding spells to faire dragons may not be a bad idea but I don't like the ones you proposed as they are too strong.

Death

Sceletons have a 1-2 dmg thats a huge problem if you plan on playing with them (they may be strong as a neutrals but aren't much impresive if you have them in your army late game)

Well Ghosts do have the ability that ages enemies ... altough they look weird I thing they are good balanced as a combat creature ... Such minor attack boost that I think they deserve can't be done by just increasing the basic statistics :(

The problem with cerberus is that if you don't attack multiple enemies they waste their power and statistics so I do think they need a little attack and/or defense bonus. 5-6 is a good one but 30 is too much maybe 26 but don't forget that with tactics they are very strong as they have better movement and can use their ability better.

You need to be uber powerful and slay dragons to get a bone dragon from necromancy. They are strong but they have a very low speed which is the problem they got and a good player would find a way to abuse it (altough it is kinda hard : ) (black dragons, dragon golems, hydras with tactics on grass terain or with a teleport :P, champions , nature can do well angainst them if you have elementals or use the mantises wisely, might will have a hard time :D altough behemoths will own them if you attack them fast before they get spell enchancements.

Order

Halfings are very useful especialy if you got precision, Order makes a very good use of them. As a neutrals they are very good if you dont have archers or spellcasters.

Chaos

Medusae is strong becose of hers stone gaze, if you have spell imunity they are just another pathetic opponent.

Agreed for the Minotaur attack nerf but not on the defense nerf.

Might

Harpy is useful angainst slow melee amries and becose Might doesen't have slow they are a bad choice. Still they die much less than the nomads.

Cyclops were nerfed a bit by equilibris and some other units were movement buffed which makes them fairly balanced.

Mostly I don't agree on your propositions as I think the game is already balanced very good, if you are to make a changes they should be minor or none.

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Postby Hellburn » Mar 20 2008, 7:52

@The unknown:
Don't combine other things like spells or skills with creatures. They must be balanced without any combining. Creatures which NEED a boost/nerf are:

Pikeman (definetly too weak), Monk (add spells), Champion(boost a little att and def - 2/3 will be good), Ghost(boost dmg or hp), Cerberi(boost dmg and hp), Fairy Dragon(change ring of fire to other - IMO 2 spells would be nice), Sprite(boost growth) and Elves(change dmg, boost hp).

I can let go the others, but these need something to do with them.

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Mar 20 2008, 8:59

They must be balanced without any combining


That's the stupidest thing you've said in this tread so far. Sorry for putting it this way but it's true.

Faction balance is a whole, not just a comparison between their creatures. So please go play the game at MULTIPLAYER (because that's what balance is about) and then come back with suggestions.

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Hellburn
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Postby Hellburn » Mar 20 2008, 9:45

For example:
TheUnknown wrote:Champions may look weak on the first sight but combined with tactics (movement improver) they can do insane damage (first strike is also a very strong ability).

What if the other hero (asylum faction f ex) has tactics too? He will attack with his black dragons first, then champions have no chance to win.
Sorry, but this is ridiciolous and pitful.
Think what you think - I know I'm right.

okrane wrote:That's the stupidest thing you've said in this tread so far.

Okay, I'm listening - show me more stupid things I wrote in this thread :/ LOL.

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Mar 20 2008, 9:57

Think what you think - I know I'm right.


Have you ever played a Multiplayer game of Heroes 4? If yes then how many? Answer me frankly please.

You must admit that when we are speaking balance we are talking about human players facing each other. The AI is so retarded that in order to balance him out you would need to give him 4x growth or something.

And if you admit that and haven't played many multiplayer games then how can you speak about knowing what's right.

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Hellburn
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Postby Hellburn » Mar 20 2008, 10:14

Yes, I played very often with my brother and friends and we tottaly agreed that some units are poor and some are overpowered.

But what can you know about this. Heroes 4 is DEAD for you, right?

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Mar 20 2008, 10:20

If so you would know that the creatures who mostly matter in this game are the lvl3 and 4 ones, as for the final battle you will usually have 5-6 heroes in your army.

So giving 1 extra damage to elves or +2 growth to some pixies ain't gonna change much.

And if you haven't realized yet why I made that poll, you're gonna have to think harder...

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Hellburn
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Postby Hellburn » Mar 20 2008, 10:33

okrane wrote:If so you would know that the creatures who mostly matter in this game are the lvl3 and 4 ones, as for the final battle you will usually have 5-6 heroes in your army.

LoL. No comment.

okrane wrote:So giving 1 extra damage to elves or +2 growth to some pixies ain't gonna change much.

It will change much for those who play Heroes FOR FUN. Think about that.

okrane wrote:And if you haven't realized yet why I made that poll, you're gonna have to think harder...

n/c

Can I give you a piece of adivce?
Go to the Heroes 5 section and stay there :]

DEOT for me.

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Mar 20 2008, 10:49

LoL. No comment.


You just proved my point.

It will change much for those who play Heroes FOR FUN. Think about that.


Well, if you play it for fun, why on earth's name do you care so much about balance? - or even more why do care about slight imbalances?

Can I give you a piece of adivce?
Go to the Heroes 5 section and stay there :]


This is gonna turn into a flaming fest, I feel it. But I don't mind, as the mods will close the thread and you'll be the one to lose, and I'll go back to my heroes 5 section of the forum.

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Postby darknessfood » Mar 20 2008, 12:29

Okrane, why don't you just leave right now. He's got some ideas, if you don't like them, then don't bother to comment on it. Heroes 4 isn't dead, it's proven, so just go back to the H5 section and let this guy say what he thinks that should be changed...
You can either agree with me, or be wrong...

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Postby Dalai » Mar 20 2008, 12:35

okrane wrote:This is gonna turn into a flaming fest

Yes, it will B-)
"Not a shred of evidence exists in favour of the idea that life is serious." Brendan Gill


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