Suggestion: Advanced Class lock

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Muszka
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Suggestion: Advanced Class lock

Postby Muszka » Nov 29 2007, 3:25

I've played a lot of HoMM 4 lately and I got an Idea: To have an option to lock and unlock the existing Advanced Class.
The Idea came when I was playing an XL map and I had a Cardinal with Saint Rainan's Staff. I was satisfied that my Hero can resurrect 90% of the fallen. I also had(beyond Nobility and Life magic of course) Chaos magic. Than it came my problem, if I take another Magic Skill, sooner or later I'll become an Archmage, but I didn't wanted that since as I said I was more than satisfied. And as I usually play with two Heroes (one might and one magic) I didn't wanted that my Cardinal to learn anymore Might Skills (Combat Maybe).

So conclusion is that I would suggest to have such an option, at least for (or against) the Archmage Class, tath can keep away heroes from becoming Archmages.
I'm also avare that if this lock would affect any other skills, some classes would be highly overpowered (e.g. Dark Pries, haveing 2 skillpoints in both Life and Death magic[locked] with full GM Combat).

P.S. I don't know, if the EQ team still exists or if they can even do that. But anyway would be helpful.
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Postby ByteBandit » Nov 29 2007, 4:06

You know, what I think would be nice to have for this problem, is something like what is in WoG. The market of time I think it is, by Fnord. Where you can pay to remove Primary Skills you don't want. It's one of the best features ever added to any Heroes game IMO.

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Postby Muszka » Nov 30 2007, 3:33

Market of Time indeed was a genial idea since I think that it happened to everyone, that it recieved a skill he didn't wanted. But in H4 there are only 9 basic secondary skills, you can take your time, which one you go for. And you can't really choose between Advanced Secondary Skills, cos they are fixed.
What I wanted is an option for not necessarily to become Archmage with 3 skills(eg. I have full GM of Nobility and Life Magic => Cardinal. Also got along the way full GM of Order magic. Now if I'll learn just even Basic Nature magic I'll become an Archmage, but I want to remain Cardinal.)
Your post gave me the idea, that they could also put an option, where you could choose, where to put the Skill point recieved from Shrines or Libraries or Might Skillups giving buildings. Because it can be very frustrating, when it gives Basic Charm instead of GM Order magic.
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Postby Le_Faucheur » Dec 3 2007, 19:19

or a hero could benefit from several combos.

GM life + GM order + GM chaos :
- archmage
- chaos ward
- ignore wards
- spells cost -2 mana.

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Postby Muszka » Dec 3 2007, 23:41

Le_Faucheur wrote:or a hero could benefit from several combos.

GM life + GM order + GM chaos :
- archmage
- chaos ward
- ignore wards
- spells cost -2 mana.

Isn't that bad Idea. It's simple, and the result would be similar.
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Postby Black Ghost » Dec 8 2007, 14:44

Intersting. Having unique archmages would be awesome but in some cases even too powerful. Consider dark priest with combat and +20% to magic...
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Postby Swiftfingers » Dec 9 2007, 23:52

I think that you miss the point of what classes are. The skills that you have determine your class. That is the point. In the example of your cardinal, if you suddenly focus on skills that aren't related to being a cardinal and become more proficient in them, then you aren't really a cardinal, are you?
So if you become proficient enough in a variety of magic and become an archmage, that is what you are. If you want to stay a cardinal, then focus on the skills that will keep you a cardinal. Does that make sense?

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Postby Muszka » Dec 10 2007, 4:29

Swiftfingers wrote:I think that you miss the point of what classes are. The skills that you have determine your class. That is the point. In the example of your cardinal, if you suddenly focus on skills that aren't related to being a cardinal and become more proficient in them, then you aren't really a cardinal, are you?
So if you become proficient enough in a variety of magic and become an archmage, that is what you are. If you want to stay a cardinal, then focus on the skills that will keep you a cardinal. Does that make sense?

I'll explain once more. (Mainly it's an issue for XL maps and Campaigns. ) If I have GM Nobility (GM Estates, GM Mining, GM Diplomacy) + GM Life Magic (GM Spirituality, GM Healing, GM Resurrection), than I'm Cardinal, right? Than if I learn Order Magic and become GM in it(GM Enchantment, GM Sorcery, GM Charm), I'll be still a Cardinal, right? But I can't learn any new magic skills, not even on basic lvl, because if, for example I learn Basic Nature Magic I'll become an Archmage. So I'm forced to learn Scouting and Combat. Since Tactics has my other hero, and it wouldn't make much sense if both of my heroes have tactics. Now Combat is good, it helps me to survive, but if blocks me from learning Dragon Strenght, and Mass Snake Strike than it's a crap, since I can survive with Immo Potion + Sanctuary + many things. And now my magic hero has more non-magic skills, than magic skills. And my non-magic hero will have more magic skills than n-m sk, because I'll have Tactics and Combat, but no Scouting and Nobility, since I have those with my other hero. And because I'll have 3 magic skills with him, my non magic hero will be an Archmage. All that for a Cardinal. It's a very big price for it. Don't you think?
Now, how does that all make sense?
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Re: Suggestion: Advanced Class lock

Postby iKossu » Dec 12 2007, 11:32

At first I thought this idea makes no sense:

Muszka wrote:To have an option to lock and unlock the existing Advanced Class.


But then I got to thinking. Lets do a little mindgame: :creative:
It's clear that no-one can be a lumberjack, for example, without the required skills, right? Of course you can pretend to be one but you can't do the job. You have to have the skills first and then your profession can become lumberjack. Now, if you educate yourself with, say... business management, you don't have to become a marketing man for lumber company, or something like that, for you can still be a lumberjack. Of course that wouldn't make much sense in real life, but it's possible.

To implement that to Equilibris, I don't know. Could be a bit silly. :|

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Re: Suggestion: Advanced Class lock

Postby Swiftfingers » Dec 12 2007, 13:11

KonserniJohtaja wrote:At first I thought this idea makes no sense:

Muszka wrote:To have an option to lock and unlock the existing Advanced Class.


But then I got to thinking. Lets do a little mindgame: :creative:
It's clear that no-one can be a lumberjack, for example, without the required skills, right? Of course you can pretend to be one but you can't do the job. You have to have the skills first and then your profession can become lumberjack. Now, if you educate yourself with, say... business management, you don't have to become a marketing man for lumber company, or something like that, for you can still be a lumberjack. Of course that wouldn't make much sense in real life, but it's possible.

To implement that to Equilibris, I don't know. Could be a bit silly. :|


I agree that it doesn't make much sense.

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Re: Suggestion: Advanced Class lock

Postby Muszka » Dec 13 2007, 0:26

Swiftfingers wrote:
KonserniJohtaja wrote:At first I thought this idea makes no sense:

Muszka wrote:To have an option to lock and unlock the existing Advanced Class.


But then I got to thinking. Lets do a little mindgame: :creative:
It's clear that no-one can be a lumberjack, for example, without the required skills, right? Of course you can pretend to be one but you can't do the job. You have to have the skills first and then your profession can become lumberjack. Now, if you educate yourself with, say... business management, you don't have to become a marketing man for lumber company, or something like that, for you can still be a lumberjack. Of course that wouldn't make much sense in real life, but it's possible.

To implement that to Equilibris, I don't know. Could be a bit silly. :|


I agree that it doesn't make much sense.

Have you guys even read my earlier post?
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Postby Swiftfingers » Dec 13 2007, 1:13

I did read your post. It sounds to me like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Of course if we really think about it, it seems kind of silly that having achieved a certain status with corresponding bonus, that a hero would forget how to perform his previous bonus when he attains a different occupation. So perhaps heroes should just accumulate bonuses for every occupation they can attain. :devil:

But we must remember that this is a game and balancing issues must be taken into consideration.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

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Postby Muszka » Dec 13 2007, 1:35

I suggested to lock the class, an maintain one bonus, not to accumulate bonuses.
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Re: Suggestion: Advanced Class lock

Postby iKossu » Dec 14 2007, 7:42

Muszka wrote:Have you guys even read my earlier post?


Of course I read your earlier posts and I think your idea has already been commented by many ppl. I guess something could be done like Market of Time or "combo classes" as suggested earlier. Believe it or not, I'm familiar with this problem too. ;)


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