Death & Chaos Magic: Underpowered?

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Metathron
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Death & Chaos Magic: Underpowered?

Postby Metathron » Jun 16 2007, 11:10

Ever since the game was released, I've been hearing complaints about Death Magic, namely that it is less potent than the other magic schools. Coincidentally, this magic type has always been my least favourite, perhaps because I prefer to boost my own troops rather than curse the enemy's, or perhaps because subconsciously I also viewed Death Magic as inferior.

What do you think? Is it really inferior, or just different/unique in its own way and must be viewed relative to the strength of Necropolis' troops?

What about Chaos magic? The main complaint about it is that direct damage spells are rendered very much useless in later stages of the game, when large armies take the stage. One good solution I saw was to make those spells' damage output increase exponentially, or relative to the hero's level. What do you think?
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Postby Le_Faucheur » Jun 16 2007, 15:44

I find the chaos magic pretty good. I usually take it when I'm playing with necropolis (and demons) especially for confusion / cloud of confusion and 1st strike/ mass 1st strike. also DD spells are a nice help at the beginning of the game.
death magic may be my least favorite too, because it has some spells which are pretty bad, or hard to use (like life drain or unholy song)
but it has some extremly powerful spells too like terror, vampiric touch, or raise ghosts (since ghosts cast ages, and both those spells are level 3!!)

let's see, death magic :
level 1 : most spells are ok. poison is weak, but economical for its duration, cancellation is near useless against the AI

level 2 : unholy song and life drain are hard to use, mire is near useless against the AI, animate dead is really good.

level 3 : raise ghosts is really good, fear is cool too, plague is weak.

level 4 : most spells are good (terror, raise vampires, call of death...)
sacrifice is uselless against the AI

level 5 : vampiric touch is overpowered against the AI, mass cancellation is near useless against the AI

chaos magic :

level 1 : fire aura may be a bit weak. sparks is really good in some situation (for a level 1 spell)

level 2 : except spell shackles, all the spells are really good

level 3 : all the spells are ok, frenesy or mass slayer may be the bests

level 4 : inferno is a little bit weak, the other spells (except implosion) are very good.

level 5 : armaggeddon is a bit weak, chain lighting is decent to kill several heroes at the same time, disintegrate is also decent to destroy one super strong hero.

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Re: Death & Chaos Magic: Underpowered?

Postby csarmi » Jun 16 2007, 20:09

Actually, before Equi, death magic was massively overpowered because of the lvl3 mass cancellation (not to mention the assasin speed bonus).

It's still very strong. +3 speed (assasin) and good spells (mass cancel, raise dead, poison). It's a different kind of game as with life for example, however.

Chaos is very strong too, disintegrate can be game-breaking, and they have nice tactival spells not to mention powerups (cat reflexes) and the fireguard class.

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Postby Omega_Destroyer » Jun 16 2007, 20:23

I was always partial to Hand of Death. It was nice to just kill a set number of level 4 units.
And the chickens. Those damn chickens.

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Re: Death & Chaos Magic: Underpowered?

Postby Metathron » Jun 16 2007, 20:35

csarmi wrote:Actually, before Equi, death magic was massively overpowered because of the lvl3 mass cancellation (not to mention the assasin speed bonus).

Chaos is very strong too, disintegrate can be game-breaking, and they have nice tactival spells not to mention powerups (cat reflexes) and the fireguard class.


Of course, you should note that your comments, most of your comments about HoMM IV, in fact, pertain to multiplayer games, i.e. playing against other players, not against the AI. Am I correct?

In SP games, mass cancellation stinks, especially as a level 5 spell when you could get Hand of Death and especially Vampiric Touch.
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Postby pacobac » Jun 16 2007, 21:40

against IA, be sure life magic is the most powerful, very long game, many creatures, big spell, sanctu, résu........no loose

on MP, fast is good, mass cancel is nice to dispel Imo enemy heroes, and kill them easely with devil stack......

the same with desintegrate, good to kill heroe in one shot !!!

if game become long life magic is the best, but each magic is good and interesting, the beter way is having 2, 3 maybe 4 different magic....

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Postby Meandor » Jun 16 2007, 21:58

You can win against AI with sticks and rocks so it`s more important how certain things work in multiplayer.
...

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Postby Metathron » Jun 16 2007, 22:41

Meandor wrote:You can win against AI with sticks and rocks so it`s more important how certain things work in multiplayer.


Sure you can, but considering that a lot of people play SP, both aspects need to be taken into consideration. Of course, having a separate version of the game for SP and MP might be just a bit too awkward.
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Postby Black Ghost » Jun 19 2007, 10:52

No magic school is inferior to other ones, but each one is different, what has been already mentioned.

Even on pure RPG-maps with single hero Death is powerful if you play well death-style (different from life- or nature-style). However, it took me some time to get used to that style since I'm more aggressive than control player-type.

I recommend both normal/RPG scenarios and AI/human opponents, as those only focused on either SP or MP won't discover full potential, synergy and most important fun of certain m.school.
Note - I'm playing only with my friends [2], so it's not the same as multiplayer society with skilled guys, but still challenging and very enjoyable.

In conclusion, each school is unique. Death for instance doesnt' mean only cursing, but also blessing and rising. The same for Chaos - dd, control and blessing.
It's natural that some spells become less effective at some stage or against certain opponents, but it's not only Death's or Chaos' problem. In different situation these spells can rock.
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Postby sirxenofex » Jul 25 2007, 17:29

See, most of us don't think the two schools are underpowered. IMO Death school is pretty good from any perspectives. Even against stupid AI, plague and wait for victory is cheap during some siege battles. Cancellation/Mass Cancellation is deadly under certain circumstances which can pierce GM magic resistance. Vampiric aura and Aura of Fear can make vampires and bone dragons have the other's advantage. Besides, Mire is excellent for pursuing/escaping. Others are not bad, too.

Chaos is also good when used in right ways. Mass Misfortune is best IMO, which can go with nearly any situation. Disintegrate and Armageddon are good while Chain Lightning's performance is the worst ever.

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Postby okrane » Jul 26 2007, 7:20

I agree Chain Lightning is pretty weak. I would suggest if possible decrease the penalty when jumping from a target to another.

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Postby sirxenofex » Jul 26 2007, 12:31

Jumping penalty is one side. The other side is that neutral creatures are always less than 5 stacks so Chain Lightning is inconvenience under these conditions. While fighting with the army with heroes of your foes, the damage is not sufficient, and still, hurt your creatures or heroes often.

Maybe it should only jump 3 times but have less penalty, ie. 60% damage on the second target and 36%(60%*60%) on the third. This makes the total damage nearly the same as origin.

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Postby okrane » Jul 26 2007, 15:16

it would be interesting... that if possible to code

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Postby Galactygon » Jul 27 2007, 11:26

If there is one useless lvl 5 chaos spell, then that's Armaggeddon. The damage is so miniscule, it is useless, along with fire-ball/ring, and inferno.

I rarely use these spells, and so does the AI, when calculating how to best cause damage.

-Galactygon

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Postby sirxenofex » Jul 28 2007, 4:41

These direct damage spells have there full power only when the skill sorcery is maxed. Usually, we tend to get the high level spells as soon as possible. That is to pop Chaos Magic, Conjuration and Pyromancy first, then Sorcery. Speaking of total damage, obviously Armageddon/Inferno/Fireball/etc. are better than those single target ones when hitting at least 2 targets.

One advantage of Armageddon is that few can resist it. It is not fire, not lightning, just chaos damage. Armageddon in Heroes 3 is powerful but can be resisted by many. One more thing, Mass Misfortune can be a very good partner of Armageddon.

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Postby timagalant » Jul 29 2007, 11:45

Galactygon wrote:If there is one useless lvl 5 chaos spell, then that's Armaggeddon. The damage is so miniscule, it is useless, along with fire-ball/ring, and inferno.

I rarely use these spells, and so does the AI, when calculating how to best cause damage.

-Galactygon


Actually.. When I play an army of 6 magic-immune heroes, armageddon can be pretty damn useful, in sieges. Sure, it's not a spell for huge battles, but if you siege a castle, and you can't get through the wall easily, it usually kills them all.
It's not very good, but useful sometimes.


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