Revolutionary Idea: Remove PoI's from H4

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Yurian Stonebow
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Revolutionary Idea: Remove PoI's from H4

Unread postby Yurian Stonebow » 04 Jun 2007, 20:14

I am writing this as a hardcore Heroes III fan who occasionally plays HoMM IV with Equilibris. (so please excuse my unintentional speaking-without-knowing-the-hard-H4-facts)

I am well aware of the fact that the (adventure) AI in H4 is flawed, laughable at best and not worthy of being taken seriously. So... what I suggest is that Equilibris should remove all Potions of Immortality from Heroes IV, excluding the Potions that the computer heroes should carry with them. It is my idea that if the Player gets no such powerful potions, the gaming experience would become much more enjoyable because of the increased level of toughness. In addition, the computer controlled heroes would offer more challenge when armed with PoI's.

It is my vision that H4 would get better if this was implemented in the game. What do you think? Too revolutionary to actually work?



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Unread postby Omega_Destroyer » 04 Jun 2007, 20:21

So the cpu should be allowed to resurrect their heroes but the player shouldn't? That's not more challanging, that's just cheap.
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Unread postby Pol » 04 Jun 2007, 20:34

This is not good idea, homm4 game strategy and mechanic is too different from the previous version to make this actually helpful. If you will look one thread back in Equi forum you will see discussion which will shed some more light on it.

For h4 PoI are desperately needed, you will see later yourself.
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Re: Revolutionary Idea: Remove PoI's from H4

Unread postby HodgePodge » 04 Jun 2007, 21:55

Yurian Stonebow wrote: So... what I suggest is that Equilibris should remove all Potions of Immortality from Heroes IV, excluding the Potions that the computer heroes should carry with them. It is my idea that if the Player gets no such powerful potions, the gaming experience would become much more enjoyable because of the increased level of toughness.

Yurian
Ummm, no! If you would like your Heroes to not use Potions of Immortality, just DON'T buy them! Please don't try to force your vision of the gaming experience on the rest of us who like using these potions, especially at the beginning when wandering monsters are quite tough for rookie heroes.
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Unread postby Yurian Stonebow » 05 Jun 2007, 02:46

In Heroes IV we have an extra unit on the battlefield, The Hero. These Hero-Units are quite capable of destroying entire armies all by themselves, often with such a power that having regular units in your army is not needed anymore. My question is, what is all this? Gods of Might and Magic?

The idea of a single hero soundly defeating Dozens of Dragons is absurd. Really. In my opinon, having the hero directly taking part in combat was one of the most unbalancing decisions ever made by the late 3DO. This is what ruined the entire balance of HoMM IV. There is no effective counterforce to the Hero-God tactics*.

This is where my suggestion comes in. It is not a directive on my part like some of you have said but a mere suggestion. I do not hold that much power on the current or future evolution of Heroes IV. What I say are personal opinions, thoughts and subjective observations.

Anyways, if the PoI's are removed from the game, building Hero-God becomes much harder. I recognize the fact that the early game would indeed turn into a careful plan&attack session concerning the novice heroes. But we are after all talking about a strategy game here, aren't we? It is always good strategy to plan your moves step by step several moves into the future. With a good planning, your novice hero will stay alive even without that elixir of life. What about those computer controlled armies then? They would surprisingly offer much stiffer resistance. And from what I can gather, that's a good thing.

As for the "unfairness" of AI heroes being the only ones having access to Potions of Immortality, that's not much of an issue concerning the high possibility of it ignoring the use of them anyway. (Ironically, I forget to buy&use the PoI's quite often, but as I said I am a Novice H4 player)
My suggestion plays with the thought of making sure the AI really uses the PoI's and its extra stock would then carry over to the player who defeats them. But then again this may require scripting and some painful extra research into the H4 code.

As a side note, playing against the AI with a little extra boost in the form of PoI's is much better than playing against the AI with its current state where it manages to get its heroes killed in relatively easy fights. If that is cheap then I guess one of H4's corner stones is cheap. Without changes, single player missions and campaigns will be left unchallenging and dull.

Just my two €uro Cents.





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*High-Level heroes tend to be pretty skilled in magic resistance
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Unread postby HodgePodge » 05 Jun 2007, 03:24

Yurian Stonebow wrote:In Heroes IV we have an extra unit on the battlefield, The Hero. These Hero-Units are quite capable of destroying entire armies all by themselves, often with such a power that having regular units in your army is not needed anymore. My question is, what is all this? Gods of Might and Magic?
While this is true, the fact that Heroes can fight on the battlefield and/or be alone in an army without any creatures has made for some excellent storylines created by mapmakers.
Yurian Stonebow wrote:The idea of a single hero soundly defeating Dozens of Dragons is absurd. Really. In my opinon, having the hero directly taking part in combat was one of the most unbalancing decisions ever made by the late 3DO. This is what ruined the entire balance of HoMM IV. There is no effective counterforce to the Hero-God tactics*.
Except another "God-Hero" I have created/scripted some enemy Heroes so powerful that I couldn't defeat them. ;|
Yurian Stonebow wrote:This is where my suggestion comes in. It is not a directive on my part like some of you have said but a mere suggestion. I do not hold that much power on the current or future evolution of Heroes IV. What I say are personal opinions, thoughts and subjective observations.
Okay, that's cool. :) You are entitled to your thoughts and entitled to play your game the way you like … but removing PoI's from the game would restrict others from playing the way they like.
Yurian Stonebow wrote:Anyways, if the PoI's are removed from the game, building Hero-God becomes much harder. I recognize the fact that the early game would indeed turn into a careful plan&attack session concerning the novice heroes. But we are after all talking about a strategy game here, aren't we? It is always good strategy to plan your moves step by step several moves into the future. With a good planning, your novice hero will stay alive even without that elixir of life. What about those computer controlled armies then? They would surprisingly offer much stiffer resistance. And from what I can gather, that's a good thing.
Again, you are expecting everyone to play the game the same way you do. While you may be a master strategist, many of us aren't … we just wanna have FUN … and it's no fun having your Hero get clobbered early-on by a stack of Zombies guarding a Sawmill. Thus PoI's are very useful to those of us who want to use them; and PoI's do not have to be used by those who want a more difficult game.
Yurian Stonebow wrote:My suggestion plays with the thought of making sure the AI really uses the PoI's and its extra stock would then carry over to the player who defeats them. But then again this may require scripting and some painful extra research into the H4 code.
You may not know but the Equilibris Team does NOT have the Source Code for the game. Therefore, they cannot change many hard-wired aspects of the game … they are merely adding features and elements to balance the game & make it more fun, as much as in their power. Removing PoI's doesn't seem to be something that would make the game more fun.
Yurian Stonebow wrote:As a side note, playing against the AI with a little extra boost in the form of PoI's is much better than playing against the AI with its current state where it manages to get its heroes killed in relatively easy fights. If that is cheap then I guess one of H4's corner stones is cheap. Without changes, single player missions and campaigns will be left unchallenging and dull.
It's your choice whether or not you find the game fun. You may want to research some of the fan-made maps and campaigns … some of which are quite challenging. I would like to suggest a few fan-made maps & campaigns right off the top of my head, and do use the Equilibirs Mod when playing them:

A Wind of Thorns - by Wimfrits
The Saga of Depierrelles, part one - by Ururam Tururam
Dragon's Fate - by Jeff
Champions, The Balance of Good & Evil - by Crusard
Draconic - by Veldrynus
On a Necromancer's Trail - by Mace the Councillor
Lost Crusade - by Charles Watkins (aka Caradoc)
The Gambler - by Rakne Fne
Tales of Destiny - by a55a55in

There are many others too. You can also visit Psychobabble's Picks for Heroes IV or Heroes IV Fan-Made Campaigns to get some more titles.

Personally, I love Heroes IV, especially with Equilibris! Just my Image.

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Unread postby Akul » 05 Jun 2007, 06:35

I still don't understand why people find the POI so important. To me, they are useless. I once found about 5 of theme on a map and I used 0 of theme.
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Unread postby BrennusWhiskey » 05 Jun 2007, 08:52

Personally I play ONLY on multiplayer mode and I think POI is VERY important thing...
Maybe good idea will be to limit use only one-two POI per heroes on the battlefield. (Next using should just no work) There was a nice idea on AC but it seems now is cancelled. (ON margin: Its hard to know result is from POI or spell "Angel's Guard").

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Unread postby pacobac » 05 Jun 2007, 09:23

The idea of a single hero soundly defeating Dozens of Dragons is absurd.

Use one tactik heroes to lead theese dragons, the poor big heroe just will died......

h4 editor is the best editor of might and magic, if you want play hard, just use it, try theese maps: (multi player map, hard on solo game too...)

http://www.archangelcastle.com/h4/ligue ... ue2006.zip

http://www.archangelcastle.com/h4/ligue/maps/MEGA.rar

if you want play very hard, try online h4:

here without a cople of potion you can't survive......

http://www.archangelcastle.com/h4/ligue ... angers.php
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Unread postby gravyluvr » 05 Jun 2007, 16:24

Sauron wrote:I still don't understand why people find the POI so important. To me, they are useless. I once found about 5 of theme on a map and I used 0 of theme.
B-) Well whoptee-friggen-doo!

I don't used them either, I drag six tombstones around with Sauron and nuetrals just fall dead in front as I adventure around the map!

And Yurian Stonebow... Once you get a few levels you really don't need them as much. But you may need them at the start of the game - when 1000 gp is a lot to pay.

And a level one hero is lucky to beat a sprite stack.

Removing POI would just invite people to use more multi-hero armies.
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Unread postby HodgePodge » 05 Jun 2007, 17:52

pacobac wrote:Use one tactik heroes to lead theese dragons, the poor big heroe just will died......

h4 editor is the best editor of might and magic, if you want play hard, just use it, try theese maps: (multi player map, hard on solo game too...)
I was wondering if these maps came in an English translation?
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Unread postby Akul » 07 Jun 2007, 08:11

I don't used them either, I drag six tombstones around with Sauron and nuetrals just fall dead in front as I adventure around the map!
And I don't remember when last time I carried a tombstone :P
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Unread postby Black Ghost » 07 Jun 2007, 09:22

Completely removing PoIs would be bad, as in many scenarios/campaigns they're essential. What's more, equilibration giving AI potions at high difficult lev. is for good, and I don't find it being a cheat.

Interesting would be removing PoIs from Alchemist Shop/Armory/Ranger's Guild, etc. You could still buy them in Blacksmith on the adv. map or find them like any other artifact.

Personally I used them rarely.
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Unread postby okrane » 07 Jun 2007, 09:28

I say they must stay in the game as they are right now. They are good and they do not influence the balance of the game.

I don't know why the fuss about them.

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Unread postby Yurian Stonebow » 08 Jun 2007, 22:39

Heroes IV was a shift from the classical (turn based) strategy game into a more RPG styled area of the genre. One could even argue that H4 is a hybrid between Might and Magic series and the more tactical Succession Wars and Restoration of Erathia. That is the main reason why map makers have been able to create good RPG styled maps for Heroes IV. The powerful map editor gives the means for this purpose, that is quite true. In addition the vastly increased Hero development points to a RPG and not to a strategy game.

With this said, it is really ironic that the most functional part of the Heroes IV AI, operating in tactical battles (unfortunately excluding Castle fights), is but a side show overall in H4. I could go as far as calling Heroes IV a RPG with a tactical battle dimension. But I don't.

The fourth part of the Heroic fantasy battles saga was pushed into the markets unfinished and therefore ridden with numerous game killing bugs. Memory leaks was perhaps the most annoying of them. But that is what was to be expected from a game that was in its beta state at the time it came out. This has been verified many times by some quite respected members of the Heroes IV development personnel - there's no doubt.* The game simply needed more time for "polishing". (as was with Heroes V but that's another issue)

Anyways, the folks at NWC/3DO made the decision to bring the Hero to the battlefield as a another (although highly unusual and customizable) unit. In their own early testing they found out that the Hero-unit was something that was quite difficult to balance entirely. As we can see the issue was not addressed properly.

Potions of Immortality was a hot topic already at the early development states and remained there for almost until the publishing date.

"Would the Hero be too powerful when using these Potions? What should be the prize of a single PoI? Where to buy them?" We, the fans of the game, are still asking these questions long after the demise of the 3DO company. I feel quite justified when I say that the issue is still a hot topic.

Playing without the PoI's, I emphasize this, offers a harder game against the dumb AI and the player doesn't have to choose the next, harder setting for his/hers game just to get more resistance from neutral monsters or enemy Heroes. And besides, the Potions wouldn't be totally removed from the game - my suggestion was to limit the players access to them. The AI would still use them and be equipped with them all the time as per my idea.

It is not the price of the PoI that matters (if the price remains the current 1000 gp) but the availability and the frequency one encounters such a Potion in the game. So, I suggest removing the PoI from city's inventory and keeping it available only at Blacksmiths. Moreover, in my opinion, in a game that calls itself strategy game, the AI should be able to give at least a decent challenge. Without a decent AI any strategy game or indeed any game at all will lose something essential. Arming the AI with Potions of Immortality enhances the AI. This only one trick to improve the AI. And a not-a-hard-to-do-scripting-trick too. :)

What's the fun of battling mindless AI? If somebody's idea of a fun in a Heroes IV session is to watch the AI commit suicide then I guess there's much fun around in the game. Building a God-Hero with mystical powers and an unusual class may be enough to get some satisfaction in single player game. Perhaps, but this is doubtful. But people have different ideas of a fun Heroes game session. Saying this doesn't necessarily mean I'm trying to force others to play the same way as I do. I don't do that. I also don't believe that my limited say in H4 mod (Equilibris) matters will get my ideas very far. Far from even being discussed.

As for being a master strategist, I can remind people that I called myself a Novice concerning Heroes IV. I quite often get my Heroes killed early on when battling neutral monster stacks. Those Zombies and Pixies have indeed killed my heroes forcing me to either resurrect them in a nearby town or sanctuary or using the mother of all cheater's Load Button.** As you can see, heroes can be resurrected by other means too than by PoI's.
Fortunately, indeed, the Hero's need for PoI's grows less with each gained level.

My battle plan is to always carry two Heroes in an army no matter what. Combat Hero serves as the Magic Hero's bodyguard. (I have beaten H4 Standard and the gathering Storm with this tactic) This way I can keep the army stuffed with extra magical and physical power. It's quite simple, really. But I do listen seasoned H4 players and accept their advice with humble gratitude. Only a fool thinks he's a Master in his own right.

Reading the boards here at the Round Table quite clearly gives me the impression that the majority of those who play H4 use the Multiplayer mode via the Internet. One of the defining moments in H4 "web games" or Hotseat is to wait and see which player locates, defeats and then rules over the AI controlled cities. Having that advantage the particular player usually wins. Is this surprising? I think not.

Fan made maps, such as those found on this very site are quite fun, challenging and creative and often the best of them really push the H4 editor to its limits. I can honestly say that I enjoyed for example the Robin Hood campaign very much and wish to use this oppurtunity to thank the author for the masterpiece. It's a shame really that the company that made the game wasn't able to achieve this level in the art of mapmaking.

Yet I still have to and regret to say that the fatally dumb Heroes IV AI stubbornly has the chance to spoil even the best maps with its erratic behaviour. Alas, that something so essential in a game has to be guided via complex scripts to get something out of it. That is the mark of a sloppy coding and not the map maker's fault.


As always, my two €uro cents.





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*You don't have to take my word for it, search the web and see for yourself. The former H4 team has given some info about this in various interviews.

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Unread postby jeff » 09 Jun 2007, 00:51

While you make good points, the AI was flawed so POI's were created to help fix the problem quickly. However I have to go along with HodgePodge. No one forces anyone to use POI. I just do not understand the mentality that because someone doesn't like something then everyone should comply with their desire. I don't want to use it, therefore no one should. Sorry, but that is wrong. If they were to remove it, I would probably switch back to the WoW version of H-IV, see that’s choice. I would not insist that the Equilibris team withdraw their product so no one else could use it.
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Unread postby csarmi » 09 Jun 2007, 08:08

To me, heroes IV is about multiplayer. And you will learn very fast there, thyt the things you're talking about are no concerns. I realy don't get it.

Noobs come here and try and tell everybody that PoI is too good and should be removed.

Which is okay, everyone is entitled to his opinion, but when someone has no idea about the game mechanics, maybe he shouldn't be so sure...

Just a few facts:

God-hero strategy loses 99% of the time unless you can rush your opponent VERY fast.

Only 1 or 2 heroes in the endfight = you are dead vs almost anyone.

The removal of PoI completely unbalances the game, because most heroes can be killed in endfight with a single blow from the monster stack. Now it's the question of cancelling PoI AND killing the hero, or killing him twice (he can be resurrected tho).

Just to give you a view on how typical high end armies look like:

Level 15 crusader (GM life, combat, tactics)
Level 15 general (GM tactics, combat, dispel and/or cancel)
Level 15 beastmaster (GM nature, combat, some extra)
Level 15 paladin (GM life, combat)
Level 15 prophet (GM pathfinding, combat, dispel and/or cancel, some extras)
7 phoenixes
4 mantises

This is week 3, 130%.

I dont claim this is actually a good army... but this is what you should be expecting or trying to imagine. Removing of PoI limits the game strategy and it would all come down to who moves 1st and such... entirely paper-scissorc game.

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Unread postby Akul » 09 Jun 2007, 11:44

csarmi:

1. I had no idea that people who play in SP are n00bs, oh my godly MP player!

2. There can be 2 different H4 files: one for SP and one for MP (like TE now). One has POI and the another not. And mapmakers can still put POI in their maps.
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Unread postby pacobac » 09 Jun 2007, 12:17

dont remove definitivley nothing it's a rubish !!

maybe improve this ability on editor,
play this map without POI:
http://www.archangelcastle.com/h4/ligue ... p_kick.zip

POI is disabled with editor and no market in the towns
2. There can be 2 different H4 files: one for SP and one for MP (like TE now). One has POI and the another not
i agree...

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Unread postby jeff » 09 Jun 2007, 13:24

pacobac wrote:dont remove definitivley nothing it's a rubish !!

maybe improve this ability on editor,
play this map without POI:

POI is disabled with editor and no market in the towns
Exactly, as opposed to removing POI change the editor so it can be excluded from maps the author creates. It is close to having that ability now, what we should ask for is editable blacksmiths. That way if you want to exclude POI’s (I think that is the mapmaker’s right), you should be able to exclude it not only by editing the map properties, but also preventing it being offered in the blacksmiths without blocking the blacksmith from being built. This would be a logical and I believe a beneficial modification.
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