Let's change the advanced classes!

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Black Ghost
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Postby Black Ghost » Jun 7 2007, 9:49

* Assassin: seems a bit too much.

hmm, only Haste+Slayer than?
* Battle Mage:Frost attack is what I suggested a few weeks back
* Guildmaster: That's what I'm talking about... he should be good outside combat...

Sorry, I haven't noticed that was already suggested
* Heretic: Magic Mirror sucks period. Maybe a magic resistance reduction, or I don't know...

Wizard King would have it...
* Shadow Mage: for this guy I would prefer teleportation on the whole battle field like devils and sorceresses.

Great idea. B-) It requires fast animation and making hero's battlefield movment =50
* Wizard King: again kind of too strong.

33% is not that bad, as Guildmaster had 66%. Making Golem's MR 50% to blind isn't overpowered. You can always lower that ability to 25%.
Ignoring affects only: Dwarves, Golems, Earth Elementals, Goblin Knights and heroes. Plus that class won't have awesome dd spells (is Ice Bolt that good?)
* Witch King: too strong

Right. How about Mana Drain ability like Imps or artifact - Witch Ring?
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pacobac
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Postby pacobac » Jun 7 2007, 12:47

or artifact's - Fisbine of Misfortune


dam !! dont use it, this artifact is buged as minor negation,
fisbine need become relick
minor negation need become major
other way is changing their ability

on multiplayer map, we disable ring of permannacy, minor negation ring and fisbin about their powerful

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Postby Black Ghost » Aug 7 2008, 10:18

New Equilibris is going to be released soon, but it doesn't seem to be final and as many wrote there will be probably 3.7

Playing all this time with diffrent guys I've figured out how adv classes should actually work in the game. Bonuses shouldn't be complicated. It looks like they should neither be dominating, as skills are fair good.

Moreover, important is type ofcombination like magic-magic, might-magic and might-might, as in H4 access to spells is crucial. So skills are to be cathegorized from hero perspective into: magic, might (Combat group) and support (Tactics, Scouting and Nobility groups)

It's silly to count Knight, Lord or Thief as fighters, therefore bonuses engaging weak hero in combat melee are useless.

I'll post only those classes where a change is suggested as many of existing are fine (don't get angry for doubling your suggestions without permission :) )

LIFE + ORDER
current: Monk; Chaos Ward
change: Cleric; -
Why?: Monk is a creature with Death Ward so Cleric, a magic hero from H3, suits better

LIFE + NATURE
current: Summoner; +10XP to Summoning skill
change1: -; +25% to Summon spells
change2: -; Summon spells cost 50% less
Why?: current ability suits better Beast Lord. Also, Illusionist creates illusions in combat, why shouldn’t Summoner do the same?

LIFE + TACTICS
current: Crusader; hero’s granted the effect of spell ‘Mirth’ (maximum morale)
change: Acolyte; hero’s granted the effect of spell ‘Heavenly Shield’ (like artifact Angelfeather Cloak)
Why?: Crusader is a creature with double strike; ‘Heavenly Shield’ is more like priest-fighter hero especially as Knight’s basic skill is Defense. Also, current skill suits better Prophet

LIFE + SCOUTING
current: Prophet; hero’s granted the effect of spell ‘Spiritual Armour’
change: -; hero’s granted the effect of spell ‘Mirth’ (maximum morale)
Why?: Nature+Scouting (Bard) gives maximum luck, Life+Scouting could give max morale. Also, ‘Spiritual Armour’ is rather weak bonus

ORDER + DEATH
current: Shadow Mage; hero’s granted the effect of spell ‘Blur’
change: -; hero’s granted the effect of spell ‘Magic Mirror’
Why?: Blur isn’t totally useless, however, typical Order-Death-magic-combination is Evil Sorceress with Magic Mirror ability, therefore it would suit Shadow Mage better

ORDER + NATURE
current: Enchanter; +20% to Summon & Illusion spells
change: -; hero can cast Mind spells on creatures normally immune to them: Elementals, Mechanicals, Undeads (like artifact Crown of Enchantment)
Why?: it’s pointless to have a hero who’s doing what do separate hero classes. This guy should mix Nature’s reality and Order’s illusion together so that even creatures immune to Mind effects wouldn’t see the difference

ORDER + TACTICS
current: Illusionist; +20% to Illusion spells
change: -; +25%
Why?: 5% is no big deal but makes rarely chosen spells more popular

ORDER + COMBAT
current: Battle Mage; +20% to ‘Magic Fist’ &’Ice bolt’
change: Iceguard; Freezing (like Ice Demon) [and Cold Resistance]
Why?: neither Mage goes for crappy Order direct damage, nor does Barb. Also Iceguard would be opposite to Fireguard (Chaos+Combat). Personally I’d give Cold Resistance which is far inferior to Fire Resistance (useful only against Ice bolt) but maybe Freezing is enough. I’d like to hear your opinion.

ORDER + SCOUTING
current: Seer; +2 scouting radius
change: -; +3
Why?: increases the effectiveness of ‘Vision’ and makes scout-heroes more useful to find enemy armies

ORDER + NOBILITY
current: Wizard King; hero’s melee attack casts ‘Misfortune’
change: -; all spells for friendly creatures cost 33% less (like artifact Magic Amplifier)
Why?: Wizard reduces spell cost, Wizard King could do similar but instead of doing such for himself he/she would support friendly creatures especially Genies and Magi from his home faction

DEATH + TACTICS
current: Reaver; hero’s granted the effect of spell ‘Magic Mirror’
change: -, hero’s granted the effect of spell ‘Haste’
Why?: current ability suits better Shadow Mage. Also, ‘Haste’ like Tactics itself is about speed so it suits Reaver better than Assassin

DEATH + COMBAT
current: Assassin; hero’s granted the effect of spell ‘Haste’
change: -, Poison ability like Venom Spawn -Poison deals 25% inflicted combat dmg- [NOT ‘Poisonous Attack’], hero’s also immune to Poison like Venom Spawn
Why?: nothing suits assassinating better than deadly poisons. For a Necromancer just being Immune to Poison is not that bad bonus, but Barbs and Archers who deal fair dmg with GM Melee or Archery would become nice Spawns

DEATH + NOBILITY
current: Dark Lord; hero’s melee attack casts ‘Sorrow’
change: -, +10% to Necromancy skill (like artifact Amulet of Undertaker)
Why?: Death+Nobility is opposite to Life Nobility (Cardinal). Also, Nobility is about having more units, so it’s perfect for the king of the undead to raise more than simple Necromancer.

CHAOS + SCOUTING
current: Fire Diviner; +20% to Fire spells
change1: -, +25%
change1: Elementalist, +25% to all direct damage spells
Why?: 5% is no big deal but makes rarely chosen spells more popular. Moreover, direct damage spells are less and less effective because Magic Resistance is to easily accessible (MR depends on hero’s level, cape-artifacts and Potions of Resistance, MR-skill itself)

CHAOS + NOBILITY
current: Witch King; Fear (like bone Dragons)
change: -, Mind Leech (like Imp)
Why?: Chaos is about mana manipulation (Mana Flare, Mana Vortex). Also there’s artifact Witch Ring with same ability which proves that witching = mana theft

NATURE + TACTICS
current: Warden; friendly creatures get +10% Defense
change: -, 20%
Why?: this would make Warden class like artifact Ring of Protection

NATURE+ COMBAT
current: Beastmaster; +20% to ‘Summon wolf’
change1: Trapper; Binding (like Mantis)
change2: Forest Guardian, hero’s granted the effect of spell ‘Giant Strength’
Why?: current ability is absolutely useless. Either Trapper or Forest Guardian would be attractive class for Barb/archer and even for Druid

NATURE+ NOBILITY
current: Beast Lord; +20% to ‘Summon wolf’ & ‘summon White Tiger’
change: -; +10XP/day to Summoning skill
Why?: current ability is absolutely useless. Also, it would make Beast Lord a third lord class aside from Cardinal and Dark Lord to increase the number of creatures in the army

TACTICS+COMBAT
current: General; friendly creatures get +1 morale
change: -; friendly creatures get +1 speed and +1 movement (+5%/2 levels)
Why?: to differ General and Lord Commander class

TACTICS+SCOUTING
current: Field Marshall; friendly creatures get +10% to Attack
change: -; 20%
Why?: this would make Marshall class like artifact Warlord’s Ring

COMBAT+SCOUTING
current: Ranger; hero gets+10 Ranged Attack and has Ranged ability
change: Mercenary; No Retaliation
Why?: without Archery skill this bonus is useless, and Archery is rarely chosen skill when you build a hero. No Retaliation is better option both for Barb/Archer and Thief. And why mercenary? Well, scouting or pathfinding characterize wandering heroes, and this class is a wandering fighter to hire

COMBAT+NOBILITY
current: Warlord; hero gets+10 Melee Attack
change: -; Block (like Minotaurs)
Why?: increasing a bit attack isn’t much helpful for a hero against strong stacks of 3rd and 4th level units. Also, Archer or Lord are not to fight creatures in melee. Besides, Barb-faction is generally weaker than magic ones, so its heroes should have better class choices and a new Warlord bonus would be better protection than the current one

SCOUTING+NOBILITY
current: Guildmaster; hero ignores Magic Resistance by 66%
change: -; -25% to hire cost (like Purse of Penny Pinching artifact)
Why?: it’s pointless for non-magic hero to ignore magic resistance. Also, Thief and Lord deal with money (despite different point of view on gold, heh) . Besides, current skill suits Archmage better

Btw. is this possible to make Purse affect any cost, like hiring heroes in tavern , buying skill in university or pay less Tree of Knowledge?

ARCHMAGE*
current: +20% to all spell effects
change: hero ignores Magic Resistance by 66% [or 50%]
why: Archmage is a master in casting spells. In TGS Archmage’s artifacts give ability to fully ignore magic resistance

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY:
-Factions wouldn’t lose access to bonuses like maximum morale, Magic Mirror or ‘Haste’, some of them would be just given to other combination but within the faction

-Totally useless bonuses like +20% to ‘Summon Wolf’ would be completely changed, so would classes with same or similar bonus (Enchanter & Illusionist in Order)

-Barbarian which is weaker than magic factions due to no spells would have better classes with spell-like-effect bonuses (Freezing, Binding, Poison like Venom Spawn)

-Combat skill would generally improve protection (Immune to Poison, Cold Resistance, Block) like it currently does with Death Ward and Fire Resistance

-Weak Nobility classes would go for supporting in general (Mind leech, -33% to spell cost for friendly creatures, increase number of creatures in Necromancy and Summoning) rather than force fragile heroes to fight in melee

-Some of changes are just cosmetic like name or 5% difference of effectiveness of spell group

Sorry for quite a long article-post. Waiting for constructive criticism.
Hope it's not a sin to play with dead (topic, of course)
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Postby pacobac » Aug 7 2008, 21:33

some are good ideas, i cant be more constructive (poor english...), but i know very well H4, and i think your purpose are good equilibration, you are right about some useless advanced classes......

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Postby TheUnknown » Aug 11 2008, 15:46

Changes I don't think are good:
Enchanter-having the effect of crown of enchantment is a too much. machine, elemental and undead have penalties, not only positive stuffs for not being living creatures. Different bonus like increasing the effect of Charm would be pretty nice for me (Order is the only magic school that cannot get improved fourth skill through classes if we consider the new dark lord)
BattleMage or Iceguard - the freeze ability (weren't cold potions removed from Order blacksmith?) is too strong and can become imbalance tool in the hands of heroes and specially the combat ones. Cold resistance is nice, other ability that could be put here is being able to move in battle like Earth Elemental (etc hero cannot be slowed)
Assassin - the problem here is, if you do it by damage done from hero it favors combat heroes if you do it like poison attack then you favor the death magic heroes. I would suggest no poison immune but having poison attack + bloodlust so that combat and death magic heroes be satisfied.
Witch King - Mana Drain fits them greatly even better then Fear but the problem lies in "not being able to transfer the mana to the target of your choice". Fear isn't bad but rarely useful, needs change I believe.
Warden and Field Marshall - If you consider other classes, these ones are fairly chosen and have their uses co responding to a certain tactic. Field Marshall is a bit weaker as he can only throw/drink potions in battle so he deserves a little boost there like Blur.
General - Going for +speed +movement for creatures on hero classes destroys balance between factions. I would give him a +2 (or 1) luck for all creatures.
Beast master - you can trap someone by summoning or buying mantis, that ability is too strong, Giant Strength also is strong, I would give him a constant hydra health spell in his status.
Ranger and Warlord - they're good as they are now, the number may be tweaked so that we could get 9 or 12 bonus to attack.
ArchMage - is good as it is too, every other class bonus to spells should be at least 25% so that every class would keep its originality rather then going for archmage as soon as possible.

Changes I like:
Cleric - minor but great change, Summoner - I find the first change great, Acolyte - great name and spell choice, Prophet - may swap spells with Acolyte but it also is great this way, Shadow Mage - great, Illussionist - good, Seer - can be better if we change the type of the bonus but it is good this way too, Wizard King - will it work together with magic amplifier or not ??? in any case it is very good, Reaver - great change (magic mirror was great too), Dark Lord - The Best Change (I expect to see this change as I believe it will destroy the gap between undead and demons, vampires are a bit weaker than venom spawns for now), Fire Diviner - The first change is great although the second one isn't bad either, Beast Lord - good job, Guildmaster - your change would make him better (more useful)

My idea about Pyromancer - He should have ability that reduces magic resistance for 1/3 unlike guildmaster that has 2/3. This change would help in having DD spells that are useful even for the most resistant enemy units but will not syenergize good if there are multiple heroes with such class as multiple heroes with tactics don't work together well.

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Postby Black Ghost » Aug 11 2008, 19:07

Thanks for your replies.

I'm glad you find some of ideas acceptable. I'd like to have better options to test them practically in order to strike the right balance, but I lack programming skills, so I wish we could polish those overpowered together.

But to some point we could agree, that non-magic combinations, especially for barb, could become better. In early game Might is good, but later no spells do suck

Assassin - the problem here is, if you do it by damage done from hero it favors combat heroes if you do it like poison attack then you favor the death magic heroes. I would suggest no poison immune but having poison attack + bloodlust so that combat and death magic heroes be satisfied.

Despite "Poisonous Attack" being ranged-able, Ninja (Death+Scouting) in standard needed change, therefore Venom's ability got my interest

Witch King - Mana Drain fits them greatly even better then Fear but the problem lies in "not being able to transfer the mana to the target of your choice". Fear isn't bad but rarely useful, needs change I believe.

I've noticed mana theft supplies units with most used spell points (more magic heroes than non-magic), but maybe it's random anyway.

Waiting for comments

[edit]
Wizard King - will it work together with magic amplifier or not ??? in any case it is very good

Nope, at least shouldn't since 2 magic amplifiers aren't cumulative.
"Set your enemies on fire, light a campfire, or roast a duck. It's an all purpose spell!"

- Firebolt (Chaos spell, level 2)


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