Let's change the advanced classes!

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Galactygon
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Postby Galactygon » May 1 2007, 1:12

I have a few more interesting ideas in mind:

- Enchanters (order+nature) recieve duration bonuses to Hypnotize and Blindness. Also, a bonus to the Charm skill would make sense.

- Beast Lords (nobility+nature) recieve a boost to Summon (Satyr, Griffin, Unicorn, Faerie Dragon, Mantis) spells in addition to Summon (Tiger, Wolf). Aren't all the above creatures also beasts?

- Elementalists (combat+nature) instead of Beastmasters. Having Beastmasters and Beastlords are repetitive. Perhaps Elementalists summon
more elementals in combat and from the summoning skill?

- Shadow Mages (order+dark) may freely teleport on the battlefield, in the manner Evil Sorceress do.

- Crusaders (life+tactics) are also make an extra melee attack against all units. They should either be immune to fear, or prevent their morale from ever going below zero.

- Paladins (life+combat) are also immune to all diseases and poisons.

- Seers (order+scouting) leave no fog of war when moving.

- Non-hero spellcasters under the Wizard King's (order+nobility) command cast their spells at half the cost, while enemy spellcasters (excluding heroes) are forced to spend twice as much mana. This remains in effect while the Wizard King is alive. Multiple Wizard Kings on the same side are not cumulative, but two opposing Wizard Kings cancel each other out.

- Illusionists (order+tactics) may cast invisibility, a level 3 spell that works exactly like Sanctuary, but affects only 1 creature per casting.

- Liches (death+chaos) should also recieve the death cloud ability that real liches have.

- Warlocks (nature+chaos) should learn a spell identical to Banish.

- Summoners (nature+life) should also recieve a boost to Guardian Angel, since that spell summons creatures of some sort.

- Monks (order+chaos) may not be confused, blinded, or berserked.

- Warlords (combat+tactics) would boost creature growth even further in his/her own town.

- Bards (nature+scouting) may cast a spell identical to song of peace for free.

- Pyromancers (chaos+tactics) would be more adept towards the prevention of friendly fire (literally) - area effect spells that involve fire cast by the hero do not affect allied units.

- Fireguards (chaos+combat) permanently have aura of fire in addition to fire shield and fire resistance.

- Witch Kings (chaos+nobility) may also fly in combat, as if affected by the level 2 order spell.

- Dark Lords (death+nobility) have their diplomacy increased by a tremendous amount, when negotiating with death-aligned creatures.

- Ninjas (death+scouting) may turn invisible on the battlefield (as if they had Sanctuary in effect) once every 6 rounds for 3 rounds.

-Galactygon

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Postby Siegfried » May 2 2007, 6:27

Mostly excellent ideas. Maybe should be levelled out to some degree, but mostly excellent.

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Postby okrane » May 2 2007, 11:28

I would love it if the devs would say if this looks good or not, just to know if we should bother thinking about it...

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Postby Chorus » May 6 2007, 11:05

I'm not sure if beefing up the advanced class bonuses is either a good idea or one consistent with Equilibris-ing things. I always saw the advanced class bonuses as the cherry on the pie; the real meat is testing strategies with skill combinations.

That said, many of these ideas seem to be focused on the class abilities themselves. I think more care is needed to factor in (a) how skills compliment each other, and (b) whether they are passive or active (in combat).

As to (a), sure, the +1 morale that comes with the General sucks hosewater, but then again, combat and tactics is an incredibly powerful combination. They mesh perfectly. In another example, the Beast Lord class is horrific. What good are more resources and creatures for a hero who can summon armies in combat? The bonus doesn't make up for this much either.

With (b), some heroes should get help if they have two passive skills, eg. the Guildmaster - scouting and nobility. It's like, why give them experience, they'll just die. These kinds of classes require bonuses that make them at least somewhat useful in combat without the combat skill.

The advanced class bonuses shouldn't be equal; rather, the advanced classes should be equal.

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Postby Metathron » May 6 2007, 11:32

I always saw the advanced class bonuses as the cherry on the pie


In that case, it's a cherry the size of a pin-head, and a rotten one at that. :)

I do think your suggestions have merit, but I have difficulties agreeing with this:

These kinds of classes require bonuses that make them at least somewhat useful in combat without the combat skill.


Why give them a combat bonus if they haven't chosen the combat skill in the first place? It seems too much like a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it. Such heroes can always get a little bit of combat on the side, just to ensure their survival.
Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.

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Postby okrane » May 6 2007, 16:52

Ok.. I've made an exhaustive list with all hero types, actual ability and eventual suggestions. I will try to keep this updated.
Credits go to Metathron for his exhaustive list.
@Webmasters of this site: is it possible to make HTML editing a bit easier when posting a message like this. At least make the scroll of the message not to go to the top of the message every time when inserting a certain tag, using the buttons, like for example the bold tag...

As a general suggestion for all classes: Make All Bonuses Dependant of the Level of the Hero or Dependant on the skill Mastery in the Class' Required 2 Skills.

Might heroes

1. Tactics/Combat: GENERAL
Current Ability: All units gain +1 Morale
Suggestions:
*********** Friendly creatures get +1 speed, +1 movement

2. Tactics/Nobility: LORD COMMANDER
Current Ability: All units gain +2 Morale
Suggestions:
********** Receives a bonus to Diplomacy
********** Reduces moral penalty for mixing different alignments
********** Friendly creatures get +3 morale

3. Tactics/Scouting: FIELD MARSHAL
Current Ability: All units gain a 10% increase in Ranged and Melee Attack
Suggestions:

4. Combat/Nobility: WARLORD
Current Ability: Hero gains +10 Melee Attack
Suggestions:
********** Boosts creature growth even further in his/her own town

5. Combat/Scouting: RANGER
Current Ability: Hero gains the ability to shoot (if it didn't already) and gains +10 Ranged Attack
Suggestions:

6. Nobility/Scouting: GUILDMASTER
Current Ability: Reduces Magic Resistance of Enemies by 75%
Suggestions:
********** receives boost in diplomacy/charm
********** receives a boost in Stealth(Basic acts like Advanced and so on, at GM he should be invisible to absolutely everyone)
********** Artifact's - Purse of Penny Pitching - ability (-25% to creature cost)

Magic heroes

7. Any 3 magic schools: ARCHMAGE
Current Ability: The effectiveness of all spells increases by 20%
Suggestions:

8. Order/Life: MONK
Current Ability: Hero gains Chaos Ward: 50% resistence to Chaos spells and 50% protection (increase to Ranged and Melee Defenses) against Chaos aligned units
Suggestions:
********** May not be confused, blinded, or berserked
********** All friendly units deal extra damage to chaos units
********** Permanently under influence of Chaos Ward and Death Ward

9. Order/Nature: ENCHANTER
Current Ability: The effectiveness of all Summoning and Illusion spells is increased by 20%
Suggestions:
********** Duration bonuses to Hypnotize and Blindness.
********** Bonus to the Charm Skill

10. Order/Chaos: WIZARD
Current Ability: The cost of all spells is reduced by 2
Suggestions:
********** The cost of all spells is reduced by all friendly units and hero

11. Order/Death: SHADOW MAGE
Current Ability: Hero is constantly surrounded by a cloud which interferes with aiming, increasing Ranged Defense by 50%
Suggestions:
********** May freely teleport on the battlefield, in the manner Evil Sorceress do.
********** His attack could steal enchantments
********** Insubstantial ability like Ghosts and Air Elementlas
********** permanently under influence of Pain Mirror

12. Life/Nature: SUMMONER
Current Ability: Increases the effectiveness of the Summoning Skill: Hero can raise +10 XP more creatures per day
Suggestions:
********** Recieves a boost to Guardian Angel, since that spell summons creatures of some sort.

13. Life/Chaos: HERETIC
Current Ability: Hero gains the ability to ignore all effects from Wards
Suggestions:
********* Bonus to the Sorcery skill
********* Permanently under influence of Magic Mirror

14. Life/Death: DARK PRIEST
Current Ability: Hero gains Vampirism: for every 2 HP Damage to the enemy, 1 HP is recovered
Suggestions:
********** Bonus to animate dead, call of death and resurrection

15. Nature/Chaos: WARLOCK
Current Ability: The Spellpoints of the hero increase by +10 and Spellpoints regenerate +1 per day
Suggestions:
********** Learns the Banish spell
********** Adds the summoning of Chaos Creatures to the summoning skill

16. Nature/Death: DEMONOLOGIST
Current Ability: Increases the effectiveness of the Summon Imps, Summon Cerberi, Summon Venom Spawn, Summon Ice Demons, and Summon Devils spells so that they summon +50 XP more creatures
Suggestions:
********** Also adds the summoning of demons from the Summoning skil;

17. Chaos/Death: LICH
Current Ability: Hero becomes Undead
Suggestions:
********** Recieve the death cloud ability that real liches have
********** Bonus to Necromancy

Might and Magic Heroes

18. Order/Tactics: ILLUSIONIST
Current Ability: The effectiveness of Illusion spells increases by 20%
Suggestions:
********** May cast invisibility, a level 3 spell that works exactly like Sanctuary, but affects only 1 creature per casting.

19. Order/Combat: BATTLE MAGE
Current Ability: The force of the spells Magic Fist and Ice Bolt are increased by 20%. Magic Fist is automatically learned (if not already known)
Suggestions:
********** Negates magic resistance when casting Magic Fist
********** Hero permanently gains a Frost Attack(like the Ice Demons)
********** Increase Magic Fist & Ice Bolt by 33-50% and give that spells as if hero had scrolls

20. Order/Nobility: WIZARD KING
Current Ability: Melee attack reduces the Luck of the enemy to the minimum
Suggestions:
********** Non-hero spellcasters under the Wizard King's (order+nobility) command cast their spells at half the cost, while enemy spellcasters (excluding heroes) are forced to spend twice as much mana. This remains in effect while the Wizard King is alive. Multiple Wizard Kings on the same side are not cumulative, but two opposing Wizard Kings cancel each other out.
********** Also passively decreases enemy luck
********** Ranged Attack also casts the Misfortune Spell
********** Ignore MR (33-50%)

21. Order/Scouting: SEER
Current Ability: The radius of vision of the hero increases by +2
Suggestions:
********** Leave no fog of war when moving
********** Hero gains extra movement on the map
********** Sight radius increased to +3 to +5 or smth

22. Life/Tactics: CRUSADER
Current Ability: Hero always has maximum Morale
Suggestions:
********** Make an extra melee attack against all units.
********** Immune to fear, or prevent their morale from ever going below zero.
********** Increases the effect of Holy Word and Holy Shout

23. Life/Combat: PALADIN
Current Ability: Hero gains Death Ward: 50% resistence to Death spells and 50% protection (increase to Ranged and Melee Defenses) against Death aligned units
Suggestions:
********** Also immune to all diseases and poisons
********** Friendly creatures gain bonus damage vb undead
********** Permanently under influence of Regeneration (20HP +2HP/lev like Ring)

24. Life/Nobility: CARDINAL
Current Ability: Hero obtains +15% to the Resurrection skill
Suggestions:
********** One Guardian Angel at the start of every combat

25. Life/Scouting: PROPHET
Current Ability: Hero has Spiritual Armor which increases Ranged and Melee Defense by 25%
Suggestions:
********** Gains extra Hitpoins
********** Permanently under influence of Heavenly Shield

26. Nature/Tactics: WARDEN
Current Ability: All units obtain a 10% increase in Ranged and Melee Defense
Suggestions:

27. Nature/Combat:BEASTMASTER
Current Ability: The effectiveness of the spell Summon Wolf increases by 20%.
Suggestions:
********** Hero is permanently affected by giant strength

28. Nature/Nobility: BEAST LORD
Current Ability: The effectiveness of the spells Summon Wolf and Summon White Tiger increase by 20%
Suggestions:
********** New Name Elementalists, more elementals in combat and from the summoning skill
********** Recieve a 25% boost to all Summons
********** +20% to Summon Griffin, give that spell as if hero had a scroll


29. Nature/Scouting: BARD
Current Ability: Hero always has maximum Luck
Suggestions:
********** May cast a spell identical to song of peace for free.
********** Friendly units also gain Luck bonus

30. Chaos/Tactics: PYROMANCER
Current Ability: Hero constantly has a Fire Shield which inflicts damage on any who attempt a melee attack
Suggestions:
********** Hero ignores magic resistance

31. Chaos/Combat: FIREGUARD
Current Ability: The hero gains complete immunity to fire-based spells. Fire-based attacks inflict only half damage
Suggestions:
********** Permanently have aura of fire in addition to fire shield and fire resistance.

32. Chaos/Nobility: WITCH KING
Current Ability: Melee attack induces Fear: the enemy does not retaliate and flees several spaces
Suggestions:
********** May also fly in combat, as if affected by the level 2 order spell
********** Artifact's - Fisbine of Misfortune - ability (Misfortune on all enemy targets)

33. Chaos/Scouting: FIRE DIVINER
Current Ability: The effectiveness of all fire-based spells increases by 20%
Suggestions:

34. Death/Tactics: REAVER
Current Ability: Hero is affected by the Magic Mirror Spell
Suggestions:


35. Death/Combat: ASSASSIN
Current Ability: The Speed and Movement of the hero are increased by +3
Suggestions:
*********** Permanently under influence of Haste, Bloodlust and Slayer

36. Death/Nobility: DARK LORD
Current Ability: Melee attack reduces the Morale of the enemy to the minimum
Suggestions:
********** Have their diplomacy increased by a tremendous amount, when negotiating with death-aligned creatures
********** Give spell Terror as if hero had a scroll

37. Death/Scouting: NINJA
Current Ability: The hero's attack also casts a random curse on the target
Suggestions:
********** May turn invisible on the battlefield (as if they had Sanctuary in effect) once every 6 rounds for 3 rounds.
Last edited by okrane on Jun 7 2007, 9:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Chorus » May 7 2007, 7:46

Metathron wrote:
I always saw the advanced class bonuses as the cherry on the pie

In that case, it's a cherry the size of a pin-head, and a rotten one at that. :)


So what? Is it Equilibris' purpose to make the advanced class bonuses earth shattering? Hardly. That would require even more balancing and H4 gives EQ enough unbalanced gameplay components as it is.

Metathron wrote:
I do think your suggestions have merit, but I have difficulties agreeing with this:

These kinds of classes require bonuses that make them at least somewhat useful in Combat without the combat skill.

Why give them a combat bonus if they haven't chosen the combat skill in the first place? It seems too much like a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it. Such heroes can always get a little bit of combat on the side, just to ensure their survival.

Hold on, why should these heroes have to develop Combat? Doesn't that mean some skills help heroes survive and gain more experience better than others? Until heroes stop improving based largely on their combat performance, passive skills will always be less useful than active ones. At some point in their development, I think heroes should be equal (in utility). As it stands, a level 20 General is a whole lot more useful than a level 20 Guildmaster. That means balance skills, their combinations, and then the advanced classes.

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Postby pacobac » May 7 2007, 12:43

WIZARD KING
Current Ability: Melee attack reduces the Luck of the enemy to the minimum
: ranged attack too !! as ninja and WITCH KING, try it and use bow......


i think many of current advanced classes are good and equilibred, the weakest are:

guild master (good classe but difficult to use it), maybe he could learn basic spell attack as (poison, magic arrow and magic fist) if he know the basic magic

SUMMONER: + 20% to summon all elementalls

beast master: +20% to sumon wolf, tiger and griffin

DARK PRIEST: no retaliation

SHADOW MAGE: learn magic fist and poison

wardlock: regenerate +3 per day

BEAST LORD : + 20% to summon: sprite, leprechaun, satyre and Waspwort

SEER : + 4 of radius.....

no big changes........stay equilibris......

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Postby okrane » May 7 2007, 13:46

Actually for Shadowmage I loved the idea about teleporting everywhere on the battlefield, like the evil sorceresses... it would be really cool...

and for the seer, some movement bonus on the map would also be cool.

and a frost attack for the battlemage... although too strong imo

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Postby ramparter » May 7 2007, 23:04

What do you think of "insubstantial" (like the ghosts - double defense) for the shadowmage? I think it would suit them right.

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Postby okrane » May 8 2007, 8:24

it's a bit too much I think. Get GM combat with it and you will have something like 120 defense which makes you really hard to take out...

what do you say Dalai... will there be any changes in the classes? At least make them level dependant?

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Postby Siegfried » May 11 2007, 8:49

Chorus wrote:At some point in their development, I think heroes should be equal (in utility). As it stands, a level 20 General is a whole lot more useful than a level 20 Guildmaster. That means balance skills, their combinations, and then the advanced classes.


Hmmm, what about not balancing them, but simply make them more useful in different scenarios? F.ex. some classes might develop useful features faster, while others develop slower but in the end get more?

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Postby okrane » May 11 2007, 10:51

well with the guildmaster that is the case... cause with the appropriate chaos magic he can easily kill heroes... but you would have to develop it... although I would prefer it if he had some discount on buying creatures and buidings... something like -25% on all creatures recruited by him, -25% on all creatures in the town he is governor and -25% cost of buildings in his town..

and what about giving the negate magic resistance stuff to the heretic... it's a hard to get class... but it should be more like -25% MR...

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Postby Chorus » May 21 2007, 7:34

Siegfried wrote:
Chorus wrote:At some point in their development, I think heroes should be equal (in utility). As it stands, a level 20 General is a whole lot more useful than a level 20 Guildmaster. That means balance skills, their combinations, and then the advanced classes.


Hmmm, what about not balancing them, but simply make them more useful in different scenarios? F.ex. some classes might develop useful features faster, while others develop slower but in the end get more?


Siegfried, if heroes were equally useful under different circumstances, then as far as I'm concerned, they'd have equal utility. I give level 20 as an example because that's about the point when they typically start to become powerful, so if you would have a level 20 Guildmaster be equally useful to a level 30 General, but allow the Guildmaster to develop more quickly, I'd be fine with that. It's not my ideal, though. I still believe that skills should be balanced first. Ideally, if my hero (thief let's say) is offered nobility or combat, the choice would be equal but promote different strategies. As it stands, Combat is so vital that I'd choose Nobility just to spite Combat.

Incidentally, I have no idea why EQ changed the Guildmaster's (Nobility + Scouting) bonus from a Combat one to a DD (Chaos) one.

Okrane wrote:well with the guildmaster that is the case... cause with the appropriate chaos magic he can easily kill heroes... but you would have to develop it...


Long Response: Which is my point. The EQ Guildmaster's bonus has no relevance to Nobility or Scouting. Forcing a hero to develop a magic school that s/he'd be weak in essentially makes the Guildmaster a three-skill hero with the magic skill coming last. The bonus wouldn't be useful until the hero reached level 30 if not later.

Short Response: EQ team, could you please make the Guildmaster's bonus relate to Scouting or Nobility?

Okrane wrote:[A]lthough I would prefer it if he had some discount on buying creatures and buidings... something like -25% on all creatures recruited by him, -25% on all creatures in the town he is governor and -25% cost of buildings in his town..

and what about giving the negate magic resistance stuff to the heretic... it's a hard to get class... but it should be more like -25% MR...


These ideas I like...after combat passive heroes can gain experience outside combat.

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Postby Siegfried » May 21 2007, 7:50

Well, at least i'd agree to try to make the extended class bonus somewhat related to one or better both of the two basic skills.

The point in different development speeds is (shortened for simplicity): A level 20 General is lot more useful than a level 20 Guildmaster. A level 30 General is sort of equal useful as a level 30 Guildmaster, and a level 40 Guildmaster is lot more useful than a level 40 General. Or in other words: Some classes should develop real usefulness faster, while others should develop slower, but go further.

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Postby Siegfried » May 21 2007, 8:15

These ideas came from the spell discussions thread (http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... php?t=1117), tha newest part about magic resistance. I think, dwarfen style MR (chance of totally resisting) is somewhat chaotic, while golem style MR (always resist x%) is more order-like. So what about these extended classes:
Combat +
Order: Add golem style MR
Chaos: Add dwarfen style MR

And btw, Combat +
Life: Add death ward
Nature: Increase hitpoints (like from fountain)
Death: Decrease opposites morale ("fear")
Tactics: Add damage (like from that fountain)
Scouting: Apply "Precision", add speed
Nobility: Add morale

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Postby Le_Faucheur » May 21 2007, 23:49

of course you are talking about dwarfs and golems from homm3

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Postby Siegfried » May 22 2007, 5:31

My fault, yes. Although it would be nice to have...

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Postby Black Ghost » Jun 7 2007, 8:48

I'd change some classes that way:

Assassin (Combat+Death)
Permanently under influence of Haste, Bloodlust and Slayer
-> for Necromancer Haste is good enough, but Barbarian needs to kill dragons :D
Battle Mage (Combat+Order)
Either increase Magic Fist & Ice Bolt by 33-50% and give that spells as if hero had scrolls or permanently under influence of Potion of Cold (Freezing ability)
-> Barbarians could enjoy that class better
Beast Lord (Nobility+Nature)
+20% to Summon Griffin, give that spell as if hero had a scroll
->with a mana limit Lord could summon 1 griffin at the beginning, so it wouldn't be overpowered, the same for Druid
Beastmaster (Combat+Nature)
+20% to Summon Wolf and Summon Tiger, give that spells as if hero had scrolls
->Combat is better than Nobility, so the summons would be weaker than griffins
Cardinal (Nobility+Life)
One Guardian Angel at the start of every combat
Dark Lord (Nobility+Death)
Give spell Terror as if hero had a scroll
->with a mana limit Lord could use it only once at the beginning, so it wouldn't be overpowered, the same for Necromacer
General (Combat+Tactics)
Friendly creatures get +1 speed, +1 movement
Guildmaster (Nobility+Scouting)
Artifact's - Purse of Penny Pitching - ability (-25% to creature cost)
Heretic (Chaos+Life)
Permanently under influence of Magic Mirror
Lord Commander (Nobility+Tactics)
Friendly creatures get +3 morale
Monk (Life+Order)
Permanently under influence of Chaos Ward and Death Ward
Paladin (Combat+Life)
Permanently under influence of either Spiritual Armour or Regeneration (20HP +2HP/lev like Ring)
-> paladins should have big thoughness, so extra defense or regenerating would be perfect
Prophet (Scouting+Life)
Permanently under influence of Heavenly Shield
Reaver (Tactics+Death)
Either give spell Aging as if hero had a scroll or artifact's - Fisbine of Misfortune - ability, however with Sorrow (Sorrow on all enemy targets)
Seer (Scouting+Order)
+2-3 radius, give spell Visions as if hero had a scroll, artifact's - Cloak of Distracion - ability (ignore the threat area of enemy troops)
Shadow Mage (Death+Order)
Either Insubstantial ability like Ghosts and Air Elementlas or permanently under influence of Pain Mirror
Witch King (Nobility+Chaos)
Artifact's - Fisbine of Misfortune - ability (Misfortune on all enemy targets)
Wizard King (Nobility+Order)
Ignore MR (33-50%)
"Set your enemies on fire, light a campfire, or roast a duck. It's an all purpose spell!"
- Firebolt (Chaos spell, level 2)

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Postby okrane » Jun 7 2007, 9:26

* added your suggestions to the main alternatives list*

I just hope I am not doing it for nothing.

To comment a bit on them:

* Assassin: seems a bit too much.
* Battle Mage:Frost attack is what I suggested a few weeks back
* Cardinal: I think this class is good as it is right now.
* Guildmaster: That's what I'm talking about... he should be good outside combat...
* Heretic: Magic Mirror sucks period. Maybe a magic resistance reduction, or I don't know...
* Paladin: Regen sounds great.... although kinda imba
* Prophet: nice one.
* Shadow Mage: for this guy I would prefer teleportation on the whole battle field like devils and sorceresses.
* Witch King: too strong
* Wizard King: again kind of too strong.


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