New Faction?

[Siegfried]

Well... I think that giving them some interesting items to compensate magic would do the trick.

What about a Potion of Regeneration: regenerates x per hero level for 3 rounds?

There already are 2 artifacts doing that

Indeed they would be extremely useful for a high level barbarian.

[Metathron]

So you guys think that the Stronghold's strength in numbers (i.e. the Breeding Pits) are not enough to compensate for its complete lack of magic? I've never considered this as an issue, but I haven't played much multiplayer, so it may be a different case there.

[okrane]

it depends on many things... but imagine a hypnotise on the stack of thunderbirds and it's pretty much gg.
Not to mention the fact that mid adn late -game you can beat much larger stacks with the aid of magic that might

[Metathron]

Off the top of my head, hypnotize seems like pretty much the only spell that could break the game for Might.

About the second part of your post, I agree that spells will play a big role later on, but you still need a sizable stack of your own to fight the enemy, just spells won't do (unless it's hypnotize).

And since we're in the Equilibris forum, I think a simple tactic such as thunderbirds/behemoths with snake strike (+bloodlust) can stand side by side with most tactics that magic users can come up with.

[okrane]

ok... let me list more game-breaking spells here:

Mass Slow(makes your creatures reach twice as hard the enemy),
Blind,
Forgetfulness (on cyclops),
Steal All Enchantments(no more imortality),
Aging(on thunderbird or behemoths => pretty weak movement that + slow),
Vapiric Touch(those bone dragons die so hard now),
Hand of Death(especially on behemoths)
Summon Pheonix/Mantis - reaches your numbers
Dragon Strength - instantly doubles a stack
Mass Fortune
Disintegrate (if the hero does not have GM magic resist he's dead)
Mass Misfortune
Guardian Angel
Resurection
Divine Intervention
Mass Mirth

and I can continue all day with this. The thing is with magic a caster can empower/weaken the creatures on the battlefield to more than compesate your 50% bonus, which comes pretty late, mind you because that building is quite expesive.

And if you talk about that tactic mind that it's pretty easy do dispel those effects or detroy the thunderbirds with a powerful spell.
I'm not saying might will always lose to other factions, but I am saying that they are a little weaker than the rest.

They are good rushers. But as the armies get big, barbarians lose their power and mages become much stronger.

[Siegfried]

They are good rushers. But as the armies get big, barbarians lose their power and mages become much stronger.

That's it. To compensate for that they have better creature growth and the magic dumper (increasing magic resistance). Could be still better. The magic guilds are upgradable 4 times. Would be nice to be able to upgrade that creature growth booster, too. Another idea is to give all those barbarian creatures except highest level some magic resistance.

[Akul]

That's it. To compensate for that they have better creature growth and the magic dumper (increasing magic resistance). Could be still better. The magic guilds are upgradable 4 times. Would be nice to be able to upgrade that creature growth booster, too. Another idea is to give all those barbarian creatures except highest level some magic resistance.

Numbers don't mean nothing later mind you. In fact, what greater your numbers are, that stronger MY mage will be!

Things that Stronghold should have to be more powerful:
1. Magic Dampener now increases costs of all magic, increases MR and depletes SP of all heroes (all that while sieging town). Stronghold now means more then just a name.
2. All Might creatures should get at least 25% MR
3. Might heroes should have bigger ATT and DEF.
4. Ogre Magi should get anothre spell: stealing mana from enemy mages. While Equi alredy makes Ogre Magi a good choice, this update would make theme more important when fighting mages.
5. Ogre Magi should also get Exorcism spell (that means Mass Exorcism if numbers are great!)

[Metathron]

Interesting suggestions.

2. All Might creatures should get at least 25% MR

So that could mean making Might creatures into their own category, much like the undead, only that their ability would be a 25 per cent magic resistance.

4. Ogre Magi should get anothre spell: stealing mana from enemy mages. While Equi alredy makes Ogre Magi a good choice, this update would make theme more important when fighting mages.
5. Ogre Magi should also get Exorcism spell (that means Mass Exorcism if numbers are great!)

I'm not sure about this, it sounds like it could be overly powerful. The ogre magi are not typical spellcasters, i.e. they are not physically weak creatures with potent spells like the genie, the water elemental or even the fairy dragon; they're solid melee creatures with a few spells and very limited spell points (with good reason). So while I believe you make very good propositions, I think not all of them should be taken into account, at least not all of the changes for the ogre magi.

[Siegfried]

A simple (not mass) exorcism spell by still limited spellpoints would be nice and adequate.

Spell point draining does not fit well to might. This fits better to necropolis. But making spells cost more could fit.

The most important thing would be the general magic resistance of might creatures. But if possible this should include resistance against beneficial spells as well. A 25% chance seems appropriate.

Higher ATT values seem reasonable, too. Higher DEF values not. Maybe increase Hitpoints.

BTW: Anti-Magic could be another nice spell for the Ogre Magi. Dragon strength and Mirth too. But the spell points should be limited so they can't cast all of them. Maybe just one Dragon Strength or two others.

REM: If the Ogre Mages had these spells, consider this combo/scenario: Barbarian has a Behemot stack and three Ogre Mage stacks. The Behemots first wait. The opposing Mage does some magic on the Behemots. Now the first stack casts Exorcism on the Behemots (or places itself directly in front of them if berserked), the second casts dragon strength, the third casts anti-magic. I think then the mage is toast This would be the perfect counter to a strong magic hero.

[Metathron]

The problem with that is that anti-magic will nullify any beneficial spells as well. Perhaps you were thinking of the magic resistance spell, which only offers a 50% resistance?

Otherwise, those are great ideas, but I'm still worried about making the ogre mage too powerful a creature, and too crucial for the Stronghold for anyone to be picking the cyclops, despite how great it may be.

Also, how about we add an extra ability to the behemoth? Something like the 'enraged' ability from HoMM V could perhaps make sense. E.g. for every 200 HP of slain friendly creatures, the behemoth's attack goes up by one.

[okrane]

Dragon Strength = IMBA.

and I would not cast it on the behemoths but on the hero... and it gg.

Ogre magi shoud NOT have such powerful spells. giant strength ok, maybe... but to give a 3rd level creature a 5th level spell... that's way too much.

[BrennusWhiskey]

Dragon Strength = IMBA.

and I would not cast it on the behemoths but on the hero... and it gg.

Dispell, one hit and cya;)
Welcome in real world; practic f*k all theory;)

[okrane]

oh get real... you mean to tell me that giving this spell to ogre magi would not make them way overpowered?
Who cares about dispel... you might not even get it...
Not to mention all those creature fights that become a piece of cake when you hit your level 3 dwelling...

it's more like you should be welcomed into the real world.

[BrennusWhiskey]

Did u played even one online game to tell me u are not making mistake in your pure theoretical thinking?

Cause I had few games and Im staying with my point of view...

[okrane]

I played a few... not many, and got my ass kicked... I admit

But still... no creature has a lvl 5 spell... maybe except for those Evil Sorceresses which are impossible to get...

But hell... if you think Dragon Strength is a good spell for ogres... then... why not... RIP Cyclops...

[Siegfried]

The problem with that is that anti-magic will nullify any beneficial spells as well. Perhaps you were thinking of the magic resistance spell, which only offers a 50% resistance?

Indeed? Didn't know that. I thought i had tried it once on a hero and it worked. It prevents beneficial spells as well, that's right, but any already applied spells? But i'm really not sure about that.

Well, overpowered: May be. I'm not sure. Ogre mages would be the ideal counter for magic heroes with weak armies but strong magic. But Cyclopes are the only serious ranged unit for barbarians, so...

[BrennusWhiskey]

I agree that 5lvl spells is too much for ogre.
But who takes them now?
Mainly might is a might and there no big space for magic here. Advanced barbarian with GM magic resistance is a really tough believe me...
So give them some lvl of magic immune, good growth and maybe some building with low lvl spells and thats all. You cant give them to stay more powerful than others

[Siegfried]

Dragon Strength = IMBA.

and I would not cast it on the behemoths but on the hero... and it gg.

Ogre magi shoud NOT have such powerful spells. giant strength ok, maybe... but to give a 3rd level creature a 5th level spell... that's way too much.

On strong (high level) barbarian heroes this would indeed be optimal, much better than behemots. For low level heroes i'd prefere casting it on the behemots.

Well, may be it's somewhat overdone, and giant strength would be enough. It is just an idea. It would fit well into the barbarian ambiente.

Anti-magic would be another important spell for Ogre Mages and would too fit very well to barbarians. I'm not sure if anti-magic removes already placed spells, but if or if not, anti-magic would be a great spell for the Ogre Mages to counter high-level magic Heroes.

BTW: Anti-Magic would prevent any disspelling, too

[Siegfried]

So give them some lvl of magic immune, good growth and maybe some building with low lvl spells and thats all.

Mostly agreed, except the spell building. Instead of the magic guild they have that magic damper. And that's o.k. Exactly because of that it would be a good idea to give a carefully chosen number of spells to the Ogre Mages. But indeed that should not be overdone.

And yes, a high level Barbarian with GM Combat, GM Melee and GM Magic Resistance, especially backed up with Giant strength and (shudder) Regeneration is a kick-ass. Without Regeneration he would need some healing potions and it would take somewhat longer, but still...

[Le_Faucheur]

they could have some kind of runic magic like the dwarf in H5?