Balance improvement ideas

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balance

Postby MSG-1 » Aug 17 2012, 7:58

Yeah exactly, speed is most often the key to victory :)

Maybe balancing the creatures to same speeds would be a bit bland. In some cases it might help and be the easiest solution. I dont mind being slow if the army that im rocking with is very good...
It should be that the more slower creatures are significantly better than the fast ones..

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Re: balance

Postby Arctic_Slicer » Aug 17 2012, 9:12

MSG-1 wrote:Yeah exactly, speed is most often the key to victory :)

Maybe balancing the creatures to same speeds would be a bit bland. In some cases it might help and be the easiest solution. I dont mind being slow if the army that im rocking with is very good...
It should be that the more slower creatures are significantly better than the fast ones..


In some cases slower creatures are better than the fast ones such as Nagas over genies(order's only flying creature).

I do agree that balancing move rates on creatures would be a good idea. We don't want to set them all at the same as it would be boring but closing the gap would be a good idea. Currently the slowest unit in the game is the balista with a movement of 16 and the fastest in the game are Black Dragons and Pheonixes with a movement rate of 30(might be a couple of more at 30). That's a pretty big gap with the fastest creatures moving almost twice as fast as the farthest creatures.

Heroes move rate on the other hand is based on the fastest creature in the army to a minimum of 22. If the fastest creature in the army has 30 move the hero has 30 move. If the fastest creature in the army has 25 move the hero has 25 move. If the fastest creature in the army has 19 move the hero has 22 move as that's the lowest a hero's movement can go. If a hero has no army at all he will move at a speed of 22.

If 22 is deemed as the "fair" minimum move rate for heroes it should also be the minimum move rate for creatures. So I would propose changing the move rate of all creatures that are currently less than 22 to being 22 which would make the movement gap quite a bit less dramatic while still allowing speed based tactics and strategies. Order and Haven armies are already at a disadvantage since they don't have easy access to scouting; having the slowest armies in addition to that is a double penalty that made these factions less viable in multiplayer games. Lessening the movement gap by speeding up their slowest creatures a bit would put them on a more even footing.

TheUnknown wrote:If there was only the final battle maybe it would've been ok, but in reality you need to control the map and capture your opponents towns and mines or to even attack them first on the map (combat too) and this is where movement may be a winner.


Your main army shouldn't be wasting movement flagging your opponents mines; use a secondary hero with 1 sprite(29 move) or other fast creature for a speed bonus to do that. In all games where you have access to a tavern(both single and multiplayer) you should always have a flag/pickup hero that follows your main army doing the non-combat related stuff so your main army isn't wasting valuable time that is better spent fighting battles.
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Postby TheUnknown » Aug 17 2012, 19:11

So the three of us agree that for a certain list of creatures the movement stat is imbalanced ... can anyone else write here too and say their opinion on this issue?

We do agree that movement is imbalanced but all of us said 3 different things on how to improve it :D

MSG-1 said
I dont mind being slow if the army that im rocking with is very good...
It should be that the more slower creatures are significantly better than the fast ones..
The bigger the difference, the harder it is to balance ... sometimes the slow creatures would be overpowered and sometimes useless, that's why I think closing the movement gap a bit is the way to go but that also doesn't mean that this idea cannot be done right.

Arctic_Slicer said
If 22 is deemed as the "fair" minimum move rate for heroes it should also be the minimum move rate for creatures. So I would propose changing the move rate of all creatures that are currently less than 22 to being 22 which would make the movement gap quite a bit less dramatic while still allowing speed based tactics and strategies.

I would agree with this but the problem is that battle and adventure movement work together as I remember, so if we change them all to 22 we will lose the balance for the level 1 creatures in battle, but again if we can only change adventure movement I am for this change. BTW I still agree that balista should have more movement even if only adventure movement change is not possible and even if we need to nerf it's other stats.

My idea is
"If we use half of the movement nerf that was done on the vampires and we apply it to level 4 flying creatures except the bone dragons we might get a win win situation."

P.S. MSG-1 man how do you do your magic and restart your post count??? I mean now it's 2 and you have at least 3 posts on this topic alone :D

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Postby Arctic_Slicer » Aug 18 2012, 11:45

TheUnknown wrote:I would agree with this but the problem is that battle and adventure movement work together as I remember, so if we change them all to 22 we will lose the balance for the level 1 creatures in battle, but again if we can only change adventure movement I am for this change. BTW I still agree that balista should have more movement even if only adventure movement change is not possible and even if we need to nerf it's other stats.


Combat movement and Adventure map movement are 2 different stats. For example: Unicorns have a combat movement of 10 and an adventure map movement of 25, Titans have combat movement of 7 and an adventure map movement of 25, Phoenixes have a combat movement of 13 and an adventure map movement of 30. Far as I can tell these stats are in no way related to each other and should be able to be adjusted independently.
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Postby TheUnknown » Aug 19 2012, 13:51

There should also be top floor for base movement ... so every creature can have at most 30 base map movement or maybe even less ...

I would also like to ask you guys if you ever take advanced classes that are only might ... for example tactics+combat, nobility+tactics, nobility+combat and so on. Are warlords only good for might faction because they can't learn spells ... so is with rangers?

Also how about making generals or lords give bonus to battle movement ... like basic or advanced tactics but with no speed bonus.

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Postby Arctic_Slicer » Aug 20 2012, 7:57

TheUnknown wrote:There should also be top floor for base movement ... so every creature can have at most 30 base map movement or maybe even less ...


30 is already the current highest base map movement in the game. The fastest creatures such as Black Dragons and Phoenixes have 30 map movement. If we change the slowest creatures to all be 22 movement then the fastest armies will only move about 35% than the slowest armies which is a much more reasonable and fair gap than the fastest armies moving 90% faster than the slowest armies.

Far as hero classes go I think it's probably best not to mess with them too much. What I would prefer to see is a menu that let you choose the hero class you want from those that you are qualified for; similar to how they added summoning and necromancy menus. This would allow players to still gain skills that they want without having to worry about becoming a different class that they don't want.
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balance

Postby MSG-1 » Aug 20 2012, 19:06

Not a bad idea about the picking up the classes but reality is that I think what we are able to do with the game is limited. We will stick to some new content and some balance issues that are on top of the list.
Changing stats, numbers and variables is easy and I think we should stick to that.

*hero classses unbalanced. Every class should give some kind of bonus that really helps the player

*Some creatures suck more than others ( ive written a ton about that already)

* Some artifacts are utter ****. (hideous mask should be minor, so as ring of regen, scale male armour, mirror of revenge.
Others are really good (ring of speed, mullich, demonary,cape of protection)

* Some spells are inbalanced. Pain Mirror should be max level 4. Town gate level 5.

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Postby lubo1svk » Aug 21 2012, 9:46

Hello guys,

I've been playing Equilibris for some time now and I have to thank you for all your work. Without this mod, this game sucked bigger time. You brought much balance into it, improved playability and re-playability. Excellent job done with Genie and Nagas.. it used to be a joke picking Nagas, now they're equal. Should I say now about what still should be changed, I have few adds, including two major. However, will there be another version of Equlibris? I think there has not been update for many years.

1. SECOND LEVEL CHAOS

It's clear that Chaos disposes now the strongest second level. It's far not balanced comparing to others, and you even made Minotaur so much stronger? Well I guess you wanted to commentate the superiority of Medusa, but since you made Minotaur so supreme plus increased week growth, it's damn out of equilibrium (balance). Anybody disagrees? Try fight Medusa vs white tiger or vs nomand. Guess who wins? Set Minotaur vs Elf (both 7 week growth), guess who wins? Set Minotaur vs gold golem, white tiger and so on... don't need to continue.

What to do? First, put Minotaur back to 6 week growth, decrease block chance to 30% and add an algorithms (if possible) so Minotaur can't block 3 times in a row. That should do it.
Second, balance meduzas ability. I'm not sure but so far it works on undead and mechanical/elemental? If so, it should have been removed already, how do you want to stone undead? However, definitely decrease the range of stoning. It should work just in malee (like Heroes III) and maybe short range. Yeah, that should put level 2 into balance with others.

2. THIRD LEVEL LIFE

This has been written about in here a lot, it looks like not only me is annoyed by crusader being too strong over monk now. I mean, if you increase his hit points, movement, ok, but put him back to 5 week growth please. I personally would see his hit points on 70. This way is monk QUITE useless really. Then, monk needs slight boost, when I say slight, I mean add him ability. No penalties in malee for example. OR chaos ward, as monk he can have more wards, even order ward :). But chaos is a need. This should do it, people shall be picking monks as well.

These were two major points I am disappointed about. Let's come to others.

* Champions vs Angels still unbalanced. I suggest increasing speed to 9 and movement to 13. It should help, Champion's got the numbers.
* Since towns earn just 1000 g, definitely don't let mines to earn as much. Let's think about why do you earn less in Heroes IV than in Heroes III or V - you are not supposed to be able to buy out all army in your towns. Strategy plays bigger role, you need to be picking what you buy and how many. Mines should earn 500 at most, maybe 400 would be fine. Also important point to me. This way is gold mine far unbalanced to others, honestly guys, I play only maps where the gold mines are guarded by 4th lvl creatures.
* Treasure buildings like dragon cave, pyramid or mausoleum should give you less gold and you should fight bigger garrisons there. Let's say decrease the gold amount by 25% and increase the numbers of guards by 25%. Also the more guards are there the more you should get.
* Potion of immortality costs 1500g, the other potions value decrease by 40%. Potion of immortality is a need, many others are useless.
* Elementals still not in balance, Air elementals deserve no-retaliation ability and attack 22, earth elementals hit points to 75.
* Lepreachaun population 28.
* Thunderbird damage lowered to 28-35 but increased lighting power by 10%. Makes behemots a bit more useful.

Also no comment to AI :). We all know what a problem that is, I've already posted I would pay some real money for solid AI.

tc

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balance

Postby MSG-1 » Aug 21 2012, 11:44

Well you can't really compare level 2 creatures the way that you put them to fight each other on the battlefield.
Nomads and white tigers are great level 2 creatures and quite often used in battles.I actually think white tigers are the best level2 creatures and by far better than minotaurs. ( I think ive never bought minotaurs in a multiplayer game) I agree that medusas are great because of their stone ability but it doesn't make them overpowered because of their slow speed.

Making thunderbirds damage lower does not give behemoth any edge at all, just makes might weaker as a castle. you should increase behemoth to make it as awesome as thunders are not make some creature weaker.

I would give champion any good spell to cast. If champions are a command unit I think a spell like prayer or mass fervor would be logical for them.

Making gold mines give less gold changes the game mechanics a bit too much. Most of the maps are made so that gold mines are not easy to get.
Keep in mind that the purpose to get a gold mine is within 1 week of play. If you sit in your castle waiting for your troops to get bigger, of course it might feel "easy" to beat level3 guards. But try to beat them within a few days of the start! That makes it a challenge...
Im broke all the time when I play the multiplayer games I definately dont want to have it decreased. Maybe you sholuld play maps where players have made more things to do with money. Such as buy artifacts improve your heroes skills etc...
Immo potions could be 1500g though since they are the most important thing in the game..
I agree with the elementals... Earth elementals are horrible and water elementals are so good...
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Postby TheUnknown » Aug 21 2012, 16:18

* Some spells are inbalanced. Pain Mirror should be max level 4. Town gate level 5.


Don't like the level 5 town gate idea but I agree that Order has too much map movement modifiers ... it can get endurance, town gate, mire for their enemies and with a bit of luck they can even get easier access to pathfinding ... Chaos has only mire and they have native access to pathfinding but still ... I hope they up the map movement of the nightmares, the hydra was upped from 22 to 28, why not the nightmare too. Lets say from 23 to 25. We were also talking about other creatures to have at least adventure move of 22 so I would like to see that done too.

* Some artifacts are utter ****. (hideous mask should be minor, so as ring of regen, scale male armour, mirror of revenge.
Others are really good (ring of speed, mullich, demonary,cape of protection)

Agreed 100%

*hero classses unbalanced. Every class should give some kind of bonus that really helps the player

*Some creatures suck more than others ( ive written a ton about that already)

I think that many classes are weak, there are no overpowered which is great, there are only some that are underpowered and should be changed.
Some creatures suck more or than others, some less ...

It's clear that Chaos disposes now the strongest second level. It's far not balanced comparing to others, and you even made Minotaur so much stronger?


Chaos doesn't have easy access to nobility so if you start with 6 minotaurs you can be scarred for life if you lose some ... Nature at least has easy access to summoning to compensate. So minotaurs are a bit overpowered but they are easily killed against neutrals because they are as much as good as they're bad because blocking sometimes doesn't trigger 3 times in a row. Maybe they should have some of their stats reduced by a minor amount but that is only maybe.

Medusas are some of the most unique creatures and they shouldn't be changed, they are perfectly balanced. They may be a bit nerfed if their map movement is changed to 22 ...

This has been written about in here a lot, it looks like not only me is annoyed by crusader being too strong over monk now. I mean, if you increase his hit points, movement, ok, but put him back to 5 week growth please.


I agree with this because Life is the faction of defense and resurrection, so even if a player loses some, they will be saved, this is the opposite of the minotaur case.

No penalties in malee for example.


Agreed about the no penalty and I also think that they are too easily killed by chaos spells and too hard to kill by physical attacks so I think that they should have a bit more hp but a bit less defense ... this will only mean that monks will be easier to be killed by most creatures and archer heroes but a bit harder to kill by nukers from chaos.

* Champions vs Angels still unbalanced. I suggest increasing speed to 9 and movement to 13. It should help, Champion's got the numbers.
* Since towns earn just 1000 g, definitely don't let mines to earn as much. Let's think about why do you earn less in Heroes IV than in Heroes III or V - you are not supposed to be able to buy out all army in your towns. Strategy plays bigger role, you need to be picking what you buy and how many. Mines should earn 500 at most, maybe 400 would be fine. Also important point to me. This way is gold mine far unbalanced to others, honestly guys, I play only maps where the gold mines are guarded by 4th lvl creatures.
* Treasure buildings like dragon cave, pyramid or mausoleum should give you less gold and you should fight bigger garrisons there. Let's say decrease the gold amount by 25% and increase the numbers of guards by 25%. Also the more guards are there the more you should get.
* Potion of immortality costs 1500g, the other potions value decrease by 40%. Potion of immortality is a need, many others are useless.
* Elementals still not in balance, Air elementals deserve no-retaliation ability and attack 22, earth elementals hit points to 75.
* Lepreachaun population 28.
* Thunderbird damage lowered to 28-35 but increased lighting power by 10%. Makes behemots a bit more useful.


-Not sure about speed but + 0.5 or 1 movement for champions would be nice
-tows may be made to give 1100 or something because you spend 5 crystals and gems on them besides the wood and ore, but I don't want to see the mines change the gold income, they are good as they are
-potion of immortality has good price ... if you are a combat hero that dies rarely of course it would be cheap but if you are thief or a lord a 1000 per death is a heavy price to pay.
-With elementals I think that they all should have a map movement of 22 and water elementals should also be nerfed in either hp or defense ... I am amazed at how hard it is to kill them, not to mention they are immune to many spells.
-thunderbirds are ok, behemoths may have a bit more move like + 0.5 or + 1, but what they really need is more adventure movement +2 or 3

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Postby TheUnknown » Aug 21 2012, 20:37

Here's one question I want you guys to seriously consider.

100% magic resistance is sometimes too powerful and sometimes even useless so it should be removed because heroes do gain natural magic resistance with each level and there are wards and other spells, potions or abilities that give magic resistance.

Magic resistance makes a lot of enemy spells useless ... specially the mass versions or should I say that only cancellation, dispel and stealing enchantments work on heroes with GM resistance and only if those heroes have some positive spells on them.

Changing magic resistance to a skill that gives +5 morale and luck or + speed and movement might be better for game balance.

Simply to say that because as you gain combat skill you are more and more resistant to summoned phoenixes and mantises ... you should be able to be more resistant to damaging spells with more and more resistance.
The way things are now, you are completely resistant to damaging spells and curses while you are only a bit more resistant to enemy summoning spells and blessings. My idea simply tries to make combat to be effective against damaging, cursing, blessing and summoning spells depending on what skill you take, but not overpowered against one type and useless against others.
I do think that combat heroes should have more resistance so combat skill can give defense and 5% or 10% magic resistance per skill level while the current magic resistance skill would be changed to + morale and luck or +speed and movement for the hero.
This way we can also put the dampener to 15% or 20% and have almost spell proof barbarians and more resistant might creatures.

Why is this good?
-Combat skill tree will be nerfed in some aspects but buffed in others ... will be nerfed towards heroes with offensive spells (like fire diviners and ninjas) but will be buffed against heroes with blessings and summonings (like demonologists).
-Heroes with full GM combat against a huge number of spellcasting creatures will be more durable compared to heroes with other skills, but not like now when they are 100% resistant to ... lets say 100 genies. Or in other words Faerie Dragons, Genies, and Magi will be a bit more useful now ... just enough to have perfectly balanced rivalry with the same level creatures from their towns.
-using potion of resistance will make sense even for a hero with full GM combat tree (a minor sense but still a sense)
-ogre mages can use their resistance spell on full GM combat tree heroes too.
-Unicorns, Nightmares, Bone Dragons, Ghosts, Imps, Medusas, Waspworts and maybe others will have a chance to trigger their ability on heroes (now their ability is useless against heroes so if they cannot attack the enemy creature but only heroes with GM resistance, their ability is useless)
-spells like wards will be even more useful as spell blockers for heroes even if they have full combat tree

Why is this bad?
-Water elementals will be a bit more useful as hero killers so they should be nerfed (they need to be anyway :))
-I leave the rest of the bad reasons for you to write if you think there are some

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Postby MSG-1 » Aug 22 2012, 8:12

TheUnknown wrote:Here's one question I want you guys to seriously consider.

100% magic resistance is sometimes too powerful and sometimes even useless so it should be removed because heroes do gain natural magic resistance with each level and there are wards and other spells, potions or abilities that give magic resistance.

Magic resistance makes a lot of enemy spells useless ... specially the mass versions or should I say that only cancellation, dispel and stealing enchantments work on heroes with GM resistance and only if those heroes have some positive spells on them.

Changing magic resistance to a skill that gives +5 morale and luck or + speed and movement might be better for game balance.

Simply to say that because as you gain combat skill you are more and more resistant to summoned phoenixes and mantises ... you should be able to be more resistant to damaging spells with more and more resistance.
The way things are now, you are completely resistant to damaging spells and curses while you are only a bit more resistant to enemy summoning spells and blessings. My idea simply tries to make combat to be effective against damaging, cursing, blessing and summoning spells depending on what skill you take, but not overpowered against one type and useless against others.
I do think that combat heroes should have more resistance so combat skill can give defense and 5% or 10% magic resistance per skill level while the current magic resistance skill would be changed to + morale and luck or +speed and movement for the hero.
This way we can also put the dampener to 15% or 20% and have almost spell proof barbarians and more resistant might creatures.

Why is this good?
-Combat skill tree will be nerfed in some aspects but buffed in others ... will be nerfed towards heroes with offensive spells (like fire diviners and ninjas) but will be buffed against heroes with blessings and summonings (like demonologists).
-Heroes with full GM combat against a huge number of spellcasting creatures will be more durable compared to heroes with other skills, but not like now when they are 100% resistant to ... lets say 100 genies. Or in other words Faerie Dragons, Genies, and Magi will be a bit more useful now ... just enough to have perfectly balanced rivalry with the same level creatures from their towns.
-using potion of resistance will make sense even for a hero with full GM combat tree (a minor sense but still a sense)
-ogre mages can use their resistance spell on full GM combat tree heroes too.
-Unicorns, Nightmares, Bone Dragons, Ghosts, Imps, Medusas, Waspworts and maybe others will have a chance to trigger their ability on heroes (now their ability is useless against heroes so if they cannot attack the enemy creature but only heroes with GM resistance, their ability is useless)
-spells like wards will be even more useful as spell blockers for heroes even if they have full combat tree

Why is this bad?
-Water elementals will be a bit more useful as hero killers so they should be nerfed (they need to be anyway :))
-I leave the rest of the bad reasons for you to write if you think there are some



While I admire your enthusiasm about talking and generating discussions, It seems sometimes that you are totally clueless about the game mechanics and you throw ideas out without really thinking what they mean or how the game really works.

We've been talking about how the barb hero is weak in equilibris and how the skills are chosen in each game. . If you take barbs magic resistance away youre making him even weaker. After you first level your barbarian that is already weak and then he gets grilled like a chicken with a opponent chaos hero, what can a barb hero do anymore?
What we should do is not nerf the barb hero but make it stronger. On top of that your idea of giving speed or morale or luck is totally useless since the tactician is always going to be in the army and give the bonuses. They dont stack so it's a useless skill for the barb. When you get gm magic resistance your hero has to do some work to get it, and if he gets it, his 100% mr is well deserved.

Something like this would be more better for barb: combine magic resistance to give creatures starting from expert : +10% mr. master: +20% mr gm + 30% magic resistance. That stacked with magic damper would boost the might castle up and give it that edge its lacking.

I would also change the barb to get more combat and melee and range damage depending on map size. Small = let it be as it is m = 40% increase.

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Here I go again on my ... I mean "Here I reply again on

Postby TheUnknown » Aug 22 2012, 12:59

On top of that your idea of giving speed or morale or luck is totally useless since the tactician is always going to be in the army and give the bonuses. They dont stack so it's a useless skill for the barb.

I wasn't thinking about creature bonuses man ... I was saying that the hero himself should get more speed and movement or morale and luck ... not the creatures. This way barbarians (and other heroes that develop the combat tree) will be made faster and will move further or they will have more morale and luck. (of course if the team is able to make this ...)

What we should do is not nerf the barb hero but make it stronger. When you get gm magic resistance your hero has to do some work to get it, and if he gets it, his 100% mr is well deserved.

And doesn't a chaos hero deserve to be at least 1% effective against a hero with magic resistance? The way things are now he is useless unless he has the good buffs like cat reflexes, slayer and bloodlust ... and that is of course combined with good creatures that can have buffs cast on them unlike the black dragons. I am not saying he should kill every hero with one disintegrate but disintegrate should be able to do at least 5% or 10% damage to a hero with full resistance tree.

If you understood what I am saying you would realize that a barbarian hero in my case would have more native magic resistance than heroes from other alignments because of the dampener and if others focus on magic skills he will have time to focus on getting extra morale and luck or speed and movement FOR HIMSELF and that would make him even more powerful against creatures because he is already too powerful against spells... in fact this change takes a bit from the magic resistance but gives a lot in combat capabilities for the barbarian if you develop it. And btw if you have 20 fairie dragons against one barbarian with GM resistance they are useless unless they attack him in melee, in my case they will at least do 5% or 10% damage so they will be a more viable option unlike the phoenix that can almost always attack and kill two or more heroes.

Something like this would be more better for barb: combine magic resistance to give creatures starting from expert : +10% mr. master: +20% mr gm + 30% magic resistance. That stacked with magic damper would boost the might castle up and give it that edge its lacking.


This is great for barbarians but what about archers? What about every other faction? All will have access to resistance ... you will make everyone powerful against casters, not just barbarians ... and resistance doesn't help might against enemy buffs and summons, it just helps against curses and damaging spells. If you want more resistance for barbarians and their creatures I think the better way is the magic dampener change not the skill change because it gives resistance only to might.

I would also change the barb to get more combat and melee and range damage depending on map size. Small = let it be as it is m = 40% increase.

I agree here and would like to note that people also do hit and run tactics so melee shouldn't be given too much bonus.

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Re: Here I go again on my ... I mean "Here I reply agai

Postby MSG-1 » Aug 23 2012, 10:06

I wasn't thinking about creature bonuses man ... I was saying that the hero himself should get more speed and movement or morale and luck ... not the creatures. This way barbarians (and other heroes that develop the combat tree) will be made faster and will move further or they will have more morale and luck. (of course if the team is able to make this ...

Whats the point in giving a hero movement if the pathfinding hero will be the one who gives the movement modifier bonus. + the hero will never move with more speed that the creature so its useless. Speed is not the issue, you get speed with levels when you grow your hero you dont need a skill for that. Morale and luck are determined by your tactician, it wont stack with the barbs skills anyways so its useless aswell.


And doesn't a chaos hero deserve to be at least 1% effective against a hero with magic resistance? The way things are now he is useless unless he has the good buffs like cat reflexes, slayer and bloodlust ... and that is of course combined with good creatures that can have buffs cast on them unlike the black dragons. I am not saying he should kill every hero with one disintegrate but disintegrate should be able to do at least 5% or 10% damage to a hero with full resistance tree.

If you have a few barbs that have wasted their skills on getting just gm magic resistance and other barb skills youre going to get massacred by the chaos hero. Chaos has many other useful spells that it can cast other than damage spells. If your barbs are just barbs without magic they will get detroyed by spells like cloud of confusion (creatures wont move) cat reflexes and mass first etc.. On top of that a chaos city is never without either death or nature which will give them so much control on the battlefield that might will never win. + If youre taking just chaos heroes against might just tells you that youre not that good of a player.

If you understood what I am saying you would realize that a barbarian hero in my case would have more native magic resistance than heroes from other alignments because of the dampener and if others focus on magic skills he will have time to focus on getting extra morale and luck or speed and movement FOR HIMSELF and that would make him even more powerful against creatures because he is already too powerful against spells... in fact this change takes a bit from the magic resistance but gives a lot in combat capabilities for the barbarian if you develop it. And btw if you have 20 fairie dragons against one barbarian with GM resistance they are useless unless they attack him in melee, in my case they will at least do 5% or 10% damage so they will be a more viable option unlike the phoenix that can almost always attack and kill two or more heroes.

fyi: barb is weak and has no chance against any level4 creatures a opponent has if theres more than lets say 5-6 of them. Only thing that saves a barb is smaller maps or if he gets lucky with artifacts opals.
So please belive when I tell you that barb is not powerful at all.


This is great for barbarians but what about archers? What about every other faction? All will have access to resistance ... you will make everyone powerful against casters, not just barbarians ... and resistance doesn't help might against enemy buffs and summons, it just helps against curses and damaging spells. If you want more resistance for barbarians and their creatures I think the better way is the magic dampener change not the skill change because it gives resistance only to might.
You might be right that the best way to get magic res is to make the dampers stronger. It mixes the game too much.



I agree here and would like to note that people also do hit and run tactics so melee shouldn't be given too much bonus.
[/quote]
Rarely see hit and runs in multiplayer..

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Postby TheUnknown » Aug 24 2012, 3:07

Whats the point in giving a hero movement if the pathfinding hero will be the one who gives the movement modifier bonus. + the hero will never move with more speed that the creature so its useless. Speed is not the issue, you get speed with levels when you grow your hero you dont need a skill for that. Morale and luck are determined by your tactician, it wont stack with the barbs skills anyways so its useless aswell.


Why do you mention pathfinding :S when I say movement and speed I think it's obvious that I am thinking about BATTLE movement, not map. Map movement is ok except for behemoths, they can get a bit of a bonus there.
And I was thinking about speed and battle movement that only apply to the hero that will have the skill ... it's totally different from tactics skill because it gives speed and battle movement only for one hero (the one that has the skill). Even if speed will not enable you to act faster than creatures it will make your barbarian act before enemy heroes.
Same is with morale and luck, leadership doesn't give morale and luck to heroes, so my idea about morale and luck was that heroes with combat (barbarians) can get them from a skill and be better in combat situations (act sooner, take less damage and do more damage).

I know that barbarians are hard to play and have very little choices to play their game ... and even if you don't agree about magic resistance, it's ok ... 100% magic resistance isn't all that bad because yes, heroes do spend time to develop it ... but I hope that even you can agree that extra BATTLE MOVEMENT for heroes and creatures for might will be a great stuff.

In case you or someone else agrees with bonus battle movement and don't want to push away magic resistance skill then we can either make the magic resistance give also small battle movement bonus to heroes per level of skill OR we can make the dampener give +1 or +2 battle movement to all units under your control (heroes and creatures) ... maybe this can be only for heroes but I think that if it's for creatures too it will make ogres and behemoths a lot more viable and competitive option against thunderbirds and cyclops. We can even make it only for creatures like the winged sandals give but the point is to make the heroes from might to be better too.

P.S. Imagine a tactician general in might army running like a coward from white tigers. :D That would set and example for the rest of the army and increase their morale by 1 for sure ...

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Postby Arctic_Slicer » Aug 1 2013, 12:34

TheUnknown:

And doesn't a chaos hero deserve to be at least 1% effective against a hero with magic resistance? The way things are now he is useless unless he has the good buffs like cat reflexes, slayer and bloodlust ... and that is of course combined with good creatures that can have buffs cast on them unlike the black dragons. I am not saying he should kill every hero with one disintegrate but disintegrate should be able to do at least 5% or 10% damage to a hero with full resistance tree.


While I think magic resistance could be nerfed a little it shouldn't be made unless as it's one of the key skills of the barbarian hero and changing it too much could weaken might too much. For magic resistance I would like to see it changed to 15% per rank bonus for a total of 75% for grand mastery. Due to magic resistance bonus from level ups high level heroes could still reach 100% immunity but it requires a bit more investment in that character to get it that high making it a bit more balanced. Might heroes with GM magic resistance and magic dampener should still be able to reach 100% magic resistance relatively easy making the impact of such a change on them minimal.
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Postby TheUnknown » Aug 3 2013, 18:54

Arctic_Slicer wrote:TheUnknown:

And doesn't a chaos hero deserve to be at least 1% effective against a hero with magic resistance? The way things are now he is useless unless he has the good buffs like cat reflexes, slayer and bloodlust ... and that is of course combined with good creatures that can have buffs cast on them unlike the black dragons. I am not saying he should kill every hero with one disintegrate but disintegrate should be able to do at least 5% or 10% damage to a hero with full resistance tree.


While I think magic resistance could be nerfed a little it shouldn't be made unless as it's one of the key skills of the barbarian hero and changing it too much could weaken might too much. For magic resistance I would like to see it changed to 15% per rank bonus for a total of 75% for grand mastery. Due to magic resistance bonus from level ups high level heroes could still reach 100% immunity but it requires a bit more investment in that character to get it that high making it a bit more balanced. Might heroes with GM magic resistance and magic dampener should still be able to reach 100% magic resistance relatively easy making the impact of such a change on them minimal.


I think that we all would like to have different skill trees for might and nature heroes ... only the might heroes deserve the magical resistance while magical town heroes should get another kind of skill instead of magic resistance.

Why is this good? It will make the battles less random and spells, potions and class bonuses like wards and resistances a lot more important. Many factions already have great access to wards, magic mirrors, cancelations, exorcisms and so on ... I think that the magic resistance per level up should be removed because it makes the game too much random.

What did the magic resistance per level change accomplish?

Just imagine a situation where you get level 1, 2 spells on your barbarian hero and they get resisted by a hero that doesn't have dampener or any magic resistance skill, not even wards or resistance potions, and if he's smart to overbuff himself or oversummon the battlefield you can't do anything to stop them unless use brute force. Now that and similar situations can be unfair towards the players that invest into magic resistance.

There were some posts about splitting the combat skill tree for might and nature. It is a very great idea where basically Nature combat skill would get archery and three new skills to use in battles. And on the other hand the barbarians get combat, melee, magic resistance and one more battle oriented skill.
For example:
Archer: Weaponry, Archery, Counter Magic, Battle Hardened
Weaponry-gives precision, negate first strike and similar skills and spells, and maybe a bit bonus in speed.
Counter Magic - doesn't give resistance but gives spells like imp's mana leech, steal enchantment per hit and similar skills and spells.
Battle Hardened - gives defensive spells and abilities like Ice immunity, stoneskin, unlimited retaliations and similar.
Barbarian: Combat, Melee, Magic Resistance, Fury
Fury-gives skills like charge, fire immunity, fire aura, a bit movement bonus and other similar fun spells, abilities or stats.

Of course in all this or if we talk about the current situation the magic resistance can stay 100%, I think that in reality only chaos school should get negation of magic resistance (to be precise the sorcery skill should have like 20% at level 5 and the damage bonus can go down from 100% to 80%).

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Postby Arctic_Slicer » Aug 13 2013, 6:22

My understanding is that it's not possible to add new skills to the game so the only thing that could be done is changing the existing skills. Short of removing combat from the nature hero entirely there isn't much that can be done short of tweaking the existing skills that are already in the game.

Level based magic resistance adds a bit more randomness to the game, yes, but it's a huge improvement and keeps magic heroes from being too overpowering. Before this change it was far too easy for whomever heroes got to go first the opportunity to invalidate the opponents heroes with spells like hypnotize, blind etc. making much more random because instead of battles being decided by tactics; battles were being won by whomever won the die roll to have their heroes act first. Level based magic resistance is arguably one of the best changes of the Equilibris mod and I suspect you are in a small minority arguing against it.
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Postby TheUnknown » Aug 13 2013, 7:42

Arctic_Slicer wrote:Level based magic resistance adds a bit more randomness to the game, yes, but it's a huge improvement and keeps magic heroes from being too overpowering. Before this change it was far too easy for whomever heroes got to go first the opportunity to invalidate the opponents heroes with spells like hypnotize, blind etc. making much more random because instead of battles being decided by tactics; battles were being won by whomever won the die roll to have their heroes act first. Level based magic resistance is arguably one of the best changes of the Equilibris mod and I suspect you are in a small minority arguing against it.


I might be the only one :)

Aren't maybe those spells being overpowered? Shouldn't nerf be applied to those spells instead of increasing the magic resistance?
I think that casting a confusion shouldn't have a native chance of being resisted ... it's wasting one turn of the caster and should be able to waste one turn of the target (of course this is in case the target doesn't have any resistance) ...

Hypnotize, blind, terror and similar are too powerful disables ... There was an idea from a time ago that the hero that casts hypnotize would be disabled until hypnotize is removed ... but the change wasn't really able to be implemented because of the lack of source codes ...

What I would propose about these spells would be:
Hypnotize: Put blind (or terror) spell effect on the caster of hypnotize (even if the hypnotize spell gets resisted)
-maybe able to implement in game because the effect is from existing spell
-description would be something like because you overuse your brain powers to overtake an enemy you enter into a temporary blind (or terror) state

Blind: add a terror spell effect on the caster (even if blind gets resisted, of course the caster can resist the terror if he has magic resistance or anti magic)
-of course the after effect should not work on unicorns

Terror: add a confusion spell effect on the caster (not the nightmare, only on heroes) ...

Why I think this way is better?
-resistances would be important for casters too because they will have an after effect (only for certain overpowered spells of course like these)
-having resistance on caster enemies and not on casters may result in only the casters being disabled because they took a gamble by trying to disable that fat barbarian ...
-battles between casters would get much more interesting with a lot more battle power focus instead of disable focus ...
-barbarians that get low level spells will get a minor advantage because low level disables won't have after effects unlike the high level ones

Wouldn't this way of making changes be better instead of the magic resistance? Isn't it better to focus on making more valid moves in the game instead of having a chance of making a move invalid?

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Postby Taro » Dec 30 2014, 20:55

Well, maybe somone from eq team will read this ;)

Is there any chance you could stop damage increasing with gaining levels by heroes? My point is:

1) Combat heroes are overpowered.

2) Maybe not in single scenarios, but in campaigns they are.

3) General combat ability should depend on combat skills, not on experience level. You want be good in combat? Choose proper skills.

With this player will be forced to come up with something else than brute strength.

The second thing - is there possibility to remove multiplying neutral stacks with difficulty. And to give computer players something that will make game harder? (I'm not talking about better AI)


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