Magic Resistance

Official forum of the Equilibris mod to Heroes of Might and Magic IV (Russian forum)

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Postby DaemianLucifer » Apr 27 2006, 22:53

The imp is right.Dampeners should give MR to creatures as well.

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » Apr 27 2006, 23:06

Also, what the ^ mean? Or is there supposed to be another parenthesis there?

p=1-(1-H)(0.9/n) ???
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!
I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €

Image

User avatar
BenchBreaker
Demon
Demon
Posts: 335
Joined: 28 Mar 2006

Postby BenchBreaker » Apr 27 2006, 23:10

looking at Gaidal Cain's formula and from my personal experience, i am fairly confident this is how magic resistane works:

the main rule is: all the different resistances works separately from each other, so the heroes personal MR from the magic resistance skill is separate from any artifacts that gives MR, which is separate from a magic damper, each damper is also separate from another.

e.g. a hero with basic MR (30%) wearing the cloak of warding (30%) owning 2 strongholds with dampers (10% each) have 4 distinct sources of MR

when someone tries to the curse our hero, each of the 4 different MR tries to resist the spell, it's like tossing 4 coins, except the coins are not fair and each having their own heads/tails ratio. in the example we toss two 30/70 coins and two 10/90 coins, if any one of the coins lands on heads, then the spell is resisted.

so the only way for the curse to work is if all 4 sources of MR fails to act, which has probability = the product of all the separate x values, where each x = 1 - percentage provided by a particular source of MR (% are expressed as decimals between 0 and 1)

in the example, the only way for the curse to work is if the basic MR fails to act (70% chance) and the cloak fails to act (70%*70% = 49%) and the dampers fails to act(49%*90%*90% = 39.7 = 40%), so the there is 40% chance that the spell will work, hence the hero has 60% total MR. dd spells works the same way except it's not chance based, it'll simply do (1-total MR)% damage, in this case 40%

in summary a single source of big MR is much better than many different small MR's. 10 dampers will only gave you 65% MR instead of 100%
I used to be indecisive, now I am not so sure...
:oex: winner of the the worst riddle ever :tonguehands:

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » Apr 27 2006, 23:45

Oh, ^ means to the power.
So it's basicaly 1-0.9^n for the Dampeners. 1-[(1-HeroMR)*0,9^n] if you have the MR skill, 1-[(1-ArtMR)*0,9^n] if you have an artifact, and 1-{[(1-ArtMR)*(1-HeroMR)*0.9^n]} if you have the skill and an artifact.

So without the MR skill (rounded down):
2 Dampeners: 19%
3 Dampeners: 27%
4 Dampeners: 34%
5 Dampeners: 40%
6 Dampeners: 53%
.....
10 Dampeners: 65%
....
20 Dampeners: 87%
.....
30 Dampeners: 95%
.....
40 Dampeners: 98%
.....
50+ Dampeners: 99%

So, anyone care to make a map full of Strongholds and see if having over 50 makes you magic immune?
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!

I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €


Image

User avatar
DaemianLucifer
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 11282
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: City 17

Postby DaemianLucifer » Apr 27 2006, 23:50

ThunderTitan wrote: So, anyone care to make a map full of Strongholds and see if having over 50 makes you magic immune?


Im on it!Just give me a sec to end world hunger and reverse global warming.

User avatar
BenchBreaker
Demon
Demon
Posts: 335
Joined: 28 Mar 2006

Postby BenchBreaker » Apr 27 2006, 23:51

ThunderTitan wrote:Oh, ^ means to the power.
So it's basicaly 1-0.9^n for the Dampeners. 1-[(1-HeroMR)*0,9^n] if you have the MR skill, 1-[(1-ArtMR)*0,9^n] if you have an artifact, and 1-{[(1-ArtMR)*(1-HeroMR)*0.9^n]} if you have the skill and an artifact.

So without the MR skill (rounded down):
2 Dampeners: 19%
3 Dampeners: 27%
4 Dampeners: 34%
5 Dampeners: 40%
6 Dampeners: 53%
.....
10 Dampeners: 65%
....
20 Dampeners: 87%
.....
30 Dampeners: 95%
.....
40 Dampeners: 98%
.....
50+ Dampeners: 99%

So, anyone care to make a map full of Strongholds and see if having over 50 makes you magic immune?


you got the formula spot on! it is indeed 1-{[(1-ArtMR)*(1-HeroMR)*0.9^n]} :tsup:

although you don't need the other formulae for cases without skill MR or artifact MR, in those cases, the correponding terms will simply equal to 1. and since 1*x=x, you can just leave them there, so 1-{[(1-ArtMR)*(1-HeroMR)*0.9^n]} is the only formula you need, good work :tsup:
I used to be indecisive, now I am not so sure...

:oex: winner of the the worst riddle ever :tonguehands:

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » Apr 28 2006, 1:23

I was working my way up so I could understand it better.
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!

I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €


Image

User avatar
Dalai
Equilibris Team
Equilibris Team
Posts: 1073
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Contact:

Postby Dalai » Apr 28 2006, 8:19

What I really enjoy is the fact that people continue discovering the game. It's been a lot of time since the game was released! :creative: :-D

I want to update the formula, to make it even more universal (for the case when you need the MR in battle):

1-{[(1-ArtMR)*(1-SpellMR)*(1-HeroMR)*0.9^n]}

One should also remember about possible artifacts Ring of Greater Negation (all MR=0) and Ring of Lesser Negation. The RLN negates wards for Direct Damage spells and all MR for curse spells (this is the bug that multiplayer gamers asked us not to fix :)).
"Not a shred of evidence exists in favour of the idea that life is serious." Brendan Gill

User avatar
Banedon
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Postby Banedon » Apr 28 2006, 10:27

Black Ghost wrote:non-might heroes have longer way to get GM MR than barbs.
Do you suppose 100% MR broken? I don't.


I do.

100% Magic Resistance turns Chaos Magic almost worthless. Yes, a Chaos Sorcerer can still cast Cat Reflexes and Cat Reflexes is an awesome blessing, but so what? More than half his mage guild is gone, completely worthless when dealing with enemy heroes. And what about Death Magic? All of Death Magic's curses would be invalidated against the Magic Resistance, and a Death Mage too would find himself impotent.

This 100% Magic Resistance benefits Order, Nature and Life. Aren't those three magics powerful enough already? By allowing 100% Magic Resistance, Chaos suffers the worst, and a big part of its strategy (casting DD on enemy heroes) is gone. I think Chaos Mages at the very least should get some form of magic penetration.

iKossu
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 33
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Location: Finland

Postby iKossu » Apr 28 2006, 12:24

Banedon wrote:100% Magic Resistance turns Chaos Magic almost worthless.

I think Chaos Mages at the very least should get some form of magic penetration.


Indeed:

KonserniJohtaja wrote:
Black Ghost wrote:IMO it could be additional ability of Sorcery that could reduce MR (not antimagic, m.immune ability, wards):
B: reduces MR -5% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
A: reduces MR -10% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
E: reduces MR -15% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
M: reduces MR -20% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
GM: reduces MR -25% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)


In addition to this... If a creature's or hero's MR is 0%, the spell would do extra damage the same amount of % it would reduce the MR.


So basically, instead of increasing the damage of these DD spells (100% would still block them), "we" should bolt some MR decreasing abilities to either Sorcery or to Chaos hero class abilities. Chaos magic is indeed kinda useless if targets have 100% MR.

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » Apr 28 2006, 13:04

Dalai wrote:1-{[(1-ArtMR)*(1-SpellMR)*(1-HeroMR)*0.9^n]}

One should also remember about possible artifacts Ring of Greater Negation (all MR=0) and Ring of Lesser Negation. The RLN negates wards for Direct Damage spells and all MR for curse spells (this is the bug that multiplayer gamers asked us not to fix :)).


But not everyone can get those rings.

And I still think that if only Barbarians/Stronghold could get to 100% MR the game would be more interesting.

And Chaos could use Penetration anyway, even with only 90% MR. It's basicaly useless in late game when you have 50+ lvl4's. But it should be only for DD spells, not curses/blesses.
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!

I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €


Image

User avatar
Black Ghost
Conscript
Conscript
Posts: 219
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Postby Black Ghost » Apr 29 2006, 9:56

Well agree that Sorcery penetration should affect only DD-spells, but also those non_chaos (like icebolt, holy shout :) ?)
And I still think that if only Barbarians/Stronghold could get to 100% MR the game would be more interesting.

Agree that Might should get better MR but when it comes to creatures, barbarians have though starting MR skill. And as I wrote about departments:
max 50% for stronghold (5x10%of each department)
max 30% for other units (mabye only living ones)

Chaos suffers the worst, and a big part of its strategy (casting DD on enemy heroes) is gone.

More than half his mage guild is gone, completely worthless when dealing with enemy heroes.
\
But there's always possibility to kill the hero in melee. why do you always rely on spells to remove quickly foe heroes from battle?

User avatar
ThunderTitan
Perpetual Poster
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 23266
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Location: Now/here
Contact:

Postby ThunderTitan » Apr 29 2006, 11:47

Black Ghost wrote:But there's always possibility to kill the hero in melee. why do you always rely on spells to remove quickly foe heroes from battle?


Why should I want a useless magic school instead of just getting Combat skills then? 90% MR is enough to make sure the hero doesn't get taken out easy by DD spells.
Disclaimer: May contain sarcasm!

I have never faked a sarcasm in my entire life. - ???
"With ABC deleting dynamite gags from cartoons, do you find that your children are using explosives less frequently?" — Mark LoPresti

Alt-0128: €


Image

User avatar
Banedon
Round Table Knight
Round Table Knight
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Postby Banedon » Apr 30 2006, 1:07

I agree with ThunderTitan. Besides, later in the game the Chaos Sorcerer won't have any worthwhile foes to target (so what if you have a 2000-damage Disintegrate? Aim it at 50 Hydras and the remaining 40 is still a big, big threat, unlike casting Confusion). They'll have to target heroes.

User avatar
BenchBreaker
Demon
Demon
Posts: 335
Joined: 28 Mar 2006

Postby BenchBreaker » Apr 30 2006, 15:28

2000 dmg disintergrate would do 200 dmg with 90% MR, which would be perfect, since you need LoS to cast it
I used to be indecisive, now I am not so sure...

:oex: winner of the the worst riddle ever :tonguehands:

Galactygon
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 30
Joined: 15 May 2006

Postby Galactygon » May 15 2006, 20:10

I always thought spell damage/healing/resurrection should be calculated on a logarithmic scale rather than a linear scale, in regards to hero level.

Isn't this already implemented with damage/mass spells cast by creatures in Equilibris?

As for my suggestions about improving Chaos Magic:
1.) The damage for sparks, fireball, fire ring, inferno, and armageddon should be increased.
2.) Secondary effects to damage spells could be added (as in HoMM V). Fire spells might lower defense by 5% for 3 rounds, lightning spells have a chance of stunning (as a squire) for 1 round, and implosion might slow(?) the target for 1 round. These effects have a higher chance of happening with higher level heroes.

-Galactygon

User avatar
Gaidal Cain
Round Table Hero
Round Table Hero
Posts: 6972
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Solna

Postby Gaidal Cain » May 15 2006, 20:17

Galactygon wrote:I always thought spell damage/healing/resurrection should be calculated on a logarithmic scale rather than a linear scale, in regards to hero level.


Since hero levels already are logarithmic when calculated from experience, I don't. High-level heroes are hard enough to create, they don't need to be penalized further.
You don't want to make enemies in Nuclear Engineering. -- T. Pratchett

User avatar
theGryphon
Spectre
Spectre
Posts: 716
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Postby theGryphon » May 15 2006, 21:11

Maybe he meant the inflicted damage should increase exponentially by hero level? ;|
I believe in science and that science can explain everything.
Because God has made it all work in such a beautiful way...

Galactygon
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 30
Joined: 15 May 2006

Postby Galactygon » May 15 2006, 21:19

It's more the latter.

The reasoning behind this is already in the game, there is less difference between a level 31 and level 32 hero than a level 1 and level 2 hero in terms of power, despite that it is harder to go up from level 31 to level 32 than it is from level 1 to level 2. What I propose balances this out. And based on gaming experience, I find it quite true that when I reach those values in sheer level ups, most armies have grown to large proportions that render damage spells slightly less than useless.

-Galactygon

User avatar
theGryphon
Spectre
Spectre
Posts: 716
Joined: 06 Jan 2006

Postby theGryphon » May 15 2006, 22:00

I'd also like to see more powerful DD spells especially in the late game. Could this be a solution? I don't know but it's a good idea. What about making the inflicted damage a function of total experience points rather than hero level? This could be a solution, but it should be checked for balance issues...
I believe in science and that science can explain everything.

Because God has made it all work in such a beautiful way...


Return to “Equilibris”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests