Magic Resistance

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Banedon
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Magic Resistance

Postby Banedon » Apr 1 2006, 2:51

This is something I just found out from my battles with csarmi.

A hero's Magic Resistance rises by 3% for each level gain. I find this a terrible change. It makes Chaos Magic absurdly useless.

Chaos Magic already lives on a timed life. In any normal game, a Chaos Sorcerer will find himself completely helpless against anyone with GM Magic Resistance (pre-Equilibris). Even without GM Magic Resistance, it is an absurd pain to cast against Master Magic Resistance, and Expert too is difficult (70% reduction is damage is a lot indeed).

But now add this 3% per level and it becomes completely impossible. Shortens the lifespan of Chaos Magic even more. Now the Chaos player cannot reasonably hope to make use of his / her DD spells to kill the opponent's heroes.

...

Chaos Magic was made to deal Direct Damage, but it isn't only against creatures. It can be used to kill heroes. Sure, heroes should be rather resistant to it, but pre-Equilibris they already gained huge amounts of Magic Resistance (and they gained it swiftly). Late in the game, with stacks of 200 Hydras, a Life Priest or Nature Druid would still find himself essential to the army, but the Sorcerer will be reduced to casting Cat Reflexes and Mass Misfortune, all his DD spells rendered almost worthless. Why make Direct Damage so weak when it shouldn't be? Why shorten the time when Direct Damage is worthwhile? Why bias the game towards Life, Nature and Death? Why make curses so ineffective, and blessings so strong? Can anyone give me an explanation?

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Derek
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Re: Magic Resistance

Postby Derek » Apr 1 2006, 6:15

200 Hydras?
Hell has frozen over...

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Postby Blueman » Apr 4 2006, 21:42

I have won battles against stronghold with Chaos Magic....and due to magic.
Yes, the main hero has most of the time GM Resistance (heroes are usually around lvl 20); but the other one(s) is weaker. Even with Advanced Resistance and level 15, the hero resistance is around 60 (I am too lazy to calculate exactly) - and such a hero is usually focused on magic (multiple, basic levels), lacking the same level of resistance. Such a hero [with Immo] was Disintegrated from turn one... and it proved vital, as he knew spells like "Steal Enchantment" and "Bind wound".
Chaos alignment won 90% (if not all) of the multiplayer games I have played. (random alignment start)
I believe the 3% is fine, as it allows alignment other than might to survive battles with casters (geenies, water elems, beholders, etc.)
And anyway, as soon as a hero learns Resistance, the resistance due to the current level is not added using a formula; just as it works for Cloak of Resistance.

As a request to the Equilibris team, could you please show the creature resistance affected by the Cape of Protection (if present)?

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Let me quote you: "200 Hydras?"

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Postby csarmi » Apr 7 2006, 10:42

That's only 3% per every two levels. In a normal endfight, you will have heroes around level 14. Maybe level 20 on long closed maps (gates will open on day 50 and such).

In the first scenario, your hero gets 21% natural resistance. It will up your resist from 50 to 60% (expert resist) or from 70 to 76%... I do not think it's such a big deal.

In the second scenario, you'll have 30% natural resistance. That gives a nice starter, if you had no resist... but otherwise, it will turn 30% -> 51%, 50% -> 65%, 70% -> 79%, 90% -> 93%...

Not a big deal, really. At that time, you'll have magical artifacts with better effects.

And chaos is not useless late game, their DD spells can decimate creatures and they have nice blesses.

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Postby theGryphon » Apr 8 2006, 0:36

In my humble experience I think Chaos DD spells become "almost" useless in the late game. Consider when you're fighting 50+ Angels. Even a simple weakness is better than a disintegration. Now compare it to other high level spells from other schools. I'm not even talking about Hypno. The point is curses/blesses dominate in the late game, if especially used wisely. As I have pointed out before many times, this is why I think Chaos guild becomes weaker and weaker "relative to other schools".
Almost useless because they come very handy at certain instances, when you can clear the battle field fast. So, DD spells are very good at finishing things off. DD spells are best against non-MR heroes, but what are the odds that your rival has low MR in the late game?

Connecting to MR, I think 3% per two hero levels works fine, and it wouldn't change things much if it were 1% per level.

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Banedon
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Postby Banedon » Apr 8 2006, 1:06

Derek - see Gryphonheart's post.

Blueman - The GM Magic Resistant main hero annihilates every Chaos Sorcerer you might have. Casting DD on the others is OK if you can do it, but a good player exposes only the highly resistant or dispensable stacks at the front line. You won't be able to cast Disintegrate, because the target is out of sight. Not having this extra Magic Resistance is a boost to Might, and a fair one, since they are the only race without Magic.

csarmi - 50% to 60% is essentially equal to a 10% reduction in damage. That can be quite some reduction - 50 damage maybe from a 500-damage Disintegrate; that's perhaps 25% of your hero's HP. Tell me that is miniscule. In fact, I think Chaos magic needs a boost. Late-game their spells can decimate creatures if the opponent lets them (which they won't, just as what you're planning against me in our ongoing battle), and their blessings aren't too good. I'd far rather have GM Life Magic or GM Nature than GM Chaos if it comes to blessings.

All things considered, I think Chaos Magic needs a boost. Perhaps, configure Sorcery such that it grants Magic Penetration instead of boosts to damage - penetration that allows a Chaos Mage to cast even against GM Magic Resistant heroes.

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GM resistance

Postby TheUnknown » Apr 8 2006, 10:25

Why not then make sorcery negate some magic resistance ???? It would help balance the chaos heroes later and it
would make sorcery a more often choice. Combined with the class that made 1/3 resistanse (think it was guildmaster)
it would be even more powerful ;) .

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Postby Black Ghost » Apr 8 2006, 15:00

IMO 3% per 2nd level is balanced MR boost.
Mabye better point would be to balance it's cumulation with cloaks and MR-skill so:
total MR of single hero is equal to max. MR boost from the best source
(if hero is lev.20 =30%MR, has Cowl of Resistance=50%MR, and has E.MR skill=70%, his/hers total MR is 70% - Cowl becomes useless)

What's more don't agree that Chaos magic becomes useless in late game.
But I like Banedon's idea of 'Invocation':
Perhaps, configure Sorcery such that it grants Magic Penetration instead of boosts to damage - penetration that allows a Chaos Mage to cast even against GM Magic Resistant heroes.

IMO it could be additional ability of Sorcery that could reduce MR (not antimagic, m.immune ability, wards):
B: reduces MR -5% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
A: reduces MR -10% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
E: reduces MR -15% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
M: reduces MR -20% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
GM: reduces MR -25% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)

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Postby Black Ghost » Apr 8 2006, 15:10

Oh, and mabye MR skill should be changed (diffrence between E nad M is only 10% ;| ):
My suggestion:
B: 30%MR
A: 45%MR
E: 65%MR
M: 80%MR
GM: 100%MR

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Postby Blueman » Apr 8 2006, 16:24

Banedon wrote:
Blueman - The GM Magic Resistant main hero annihilates every Chaos Sorcerer you might have. Casting DD on the others is OK if you can do it, but a good player exposes only the highly resistant or dispensable stacks at the front line. You won't be able to cast Disintegrate, because the target is out of sight. Not having this extra Magic Resistance is a boost to Might, and a fair one, since they are the only race without Magic.


Maybe we are wrong to discuss only about spells...yes, a one-on-one battle between a GM Chaos Magic hero and a GM Resistance hero is most likely won by the second one. But it is not certain. Because we are assuming that the second one has GM Melee or/and GM Archery. In a battle is more about compensating the points where the main alignment is lacking. A "simple" cancellation makes sure a GM Res hero has only one life; while the rest of his army is taken down by DD spells. Yes, the heroes are most of the times hidden/immune, but most of the time a chaos warrior is accompanied by BDs; also, the effreet stack is a great threat to an all combat hero.
On a battlefield you will always find a stack to receive the devastating blow of a DD spell - and a chaos spell will make sure that it hurts.

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Postby Banedon » Apr 9 2006, 5:48

IMO it could be additional ability of Sorcery that could reduce MR (not antimagic, m.immune ability, wards):


A high-level Chaos Sorcerer would be extremely deadly then. I'd say 20% Magic Penetration is the absolute maximum to go to; beyond and every hero would be dying to Disintegrate.

Blueman - The army can't be seen, unfortunately. The GM Barbarian is shielding it while the Cyclops demolish your heroes.

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Apr 10 2006, 0:41

How about simply limmiting the MR heroes get without the skill?Lets say it has a limmit of 20%

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Postby Metathron » Apr 12 2006, 11:37

Black Ghost wrote:Oh, and mabye MR skill should be changed (diffrence between E nad M is only 10% ;| ):
My suggestion:
B: 30%MR
A: 45%MR
E: 65%MR
M: 80%MR
GM: 100%MR


I've always wondered why the values weren't 10, 25, 50, 75, and 100%, respectively.

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Black Ghost
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Postby Black Ghost » Apr 12 2006, 19:54

@Metathron
I've always wondered why the values weren't 10, 25, 50, 75, and 100%, respectively.

Because low skilled barb would be too fragile to any spells and wihout chance of eliminating the magic stack (like genies/magi) quick.
Barb can rely only on his att &def stats and MR. That's why on A.MR he has~50%MR -> quite good protection.

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Postby iKossu » Apr 27 2006, 7:20

Black Ghost wrote:IMO it could be additional ability of Sorcery that could reduce MR (not antimagic, m.immune ability, wards):
B: reduces MR -5% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
A: reduces MR -10% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
E: reduces MR -15% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
M: reduces MR -20% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)
GM: reduces MR -25% (and 1% per 2nd level of the hero with sorcery)


In addition to this... If a creature's or hero's MR is 0%, the spell would do extra damage the same amount of % it would reduce the MR.

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Postby BenchBreaker » Apr 27 2006, 12:14

DaemianLucifer wrote:How about simply limmiting the MR heroes get without the skill?Lets say it has a limmit of 20%


yeah the's a good figure, also the increase should be reduced to 2% per level, to prevent the 20% from being reached too easily.
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Postby klaymen » Apr 27 2006, 12:56

KonserniJohtaja: and it will make chaos magic more powerful, because later (when fighting larger armies) are the blesses/curses more effective than DD spells
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Postby ThunderTitan » Apr 27 2006, 13:25

How about also having the MR skill max out at 90%, so only by having a Stronghold with a Magic Dampener you can have 100%.

Something like 30%, 45%, 60%, 75% and 90%. Makes more sense than it rising by 15, then 20, and then 15 and 20 again.
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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Apr 27 2006, 13:32

Maybe 30%,50%,65%,80%,90% would be better.

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Postby BDragon » Apr 27 2006, 13:42

:no: :no: :no: ...
why you are always start 30%? :|
Maybe 20%, 40%, 55%, 75%, 90%. its be good i think becuse what so good to start in 30%? if you start in 20% its be more fun and more hard, :no:?
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