Spell discusions

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Metathron
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Postby Metathron » May 5 2007, 10:14

Would you want to do that? Perhaps you're thinking of a situation when a stack of yours is far away in the enemy's midst? I guess it could come in handy then, and very chaotic indeed!
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Postby okrane » May 5 2007, 17:42

I'm thinking about putting hydras in the middle of the enemy army, with teleport maybe, cast berserk, and then level up your heroes, cause it's pretty much over...

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Postby pacobac » May 6 2007, 1:25

I agree. Berserk fits better to chaos, and confusion fits better to order


pretty thing, and what about equilibration ?!!
confusion is level 2, berserk is levl 4

the better way of changes is adding new equilibred spell for each castle and some scroll in barbarians market......

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » May 6 2007, 1:37

Meandor wrote:Chaos is more about direct damage while order is about manipulation so imho berserk is fine where it is.


Exactly. Chaos does not need manipulation spells, they have devasting damage spells. Order does not have devastating damage spells, they have their manipulation spells. Please don't mess with the uniqeness of the faction spell system.

Faction magic is one of the things that HOMM4 does well and that HOMM5 should have adopted.

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Postby Akul » May 9 2007, 7:45

Is it possible to add some overpowered spells that can only be acquired in special maps where mapmaker wants it?
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Postby pacobac » May 9 2007, 19:50

yes it's easy....

first way is: receiving scroll of "confusion........" in quest

second way is: learning second magic skill, so a sorcerer learning order, become magician to having order spells.....

many other ways....

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Postby Galactygon » May 10 2007, 1:18

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:Exactly. Chaos does not need manipulation spells, they have devasting damage spells. Order does not have devastating damage spells, they have their manipulation spells. Please don't mess with the uniqeness of the faction spell system.


The term, "manipulation" is too general to be applied only to one side. Opposites usually have many things in common, diverging at some point to take up opposite sides.

For example, both have damage spells, but diverge at physical/ice (order), and fire/raw magic/electricity (chaos).

Both have manipulative spells, with Order manipulating the conscious, and Chaos the subconscious. Berserk, Confusion, Bloodlust) have more to do with manipulating the subconscious mind (the raw emotions themselves), while Hypnotize, Blind, and Forgetfullness (although the latter is debatable) are more into manipulating the conscious mind (active thinking).

My final conclusion is, since Chaos deals with instinct rather than thought, Berserk does indeed fit Chaos more than Order.

-Galactygon

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Postby Akul » May 10 2007, 6:29

pacobac wrote:yes it's easy....

first way is: receiving scroll of "confusion........" in quest

second way is: learning second magic skill, so a sorcerer learning order, become magician to having order spells.....

many other ways....


You didn't get it, did you?

I am talking about Equi-team making overpowered spells (level 6) that are too strong to be in multiplayer maps.

For example: a spell that kills the hero, drains all of his mana and reviews all your units on the battlefield.
Or a spell that ressurects angels from the fallen troops.

Few spells that mapmakers can use in their maps, but are un-equirable in multiplayer and other singleplayer maps.
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Postby pacobac » May 10 2007, 8:21

equi team ever add some new spell as "poison attack, hydra health....."

level 5 magic is very strong, we don't need level 6 spell......

maybe this "amazing spell 6" stay on scroll, mapmaker could choice use it or not......

as relics, only mapmaker choice use it, i thinck "Fizbin of Misfortune and Ring of Permanency" need become relics

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » May 10 2007, 9:08

Galactygon wrote:For example, both have damage spells, but diverge at physical/ice (order), and fire/raw magic/electricity (chaos).

Both have manipulative spells, with Order manipulating the conscious, and Chaos the subconscious. Berserk, Confusion, Bloodlust) have more to do with manipulating the subconscious mind (the raw emotions themselves), while Hypnotize, Blind, and Forgetfullness (although the latter is debatable) are more into manipulating the conscious mind (active thinking).

My final conclusion is, since Chaos deals with instinct rather than thought, Berserk does indeed fit Chaos more than Order.

-Galactygon


You mentioned that order has damaging spells. They are the level 1 and 2 spells fist and ice. They are in no way conpetitive with the massive damage of chaos's damaging spells.

We can do word plays to get this or that spell in whatever school we want to put them in. I don't see how beserk is about instinct. It is about messing with the conscious mind so that it is unable to tell friend from foe. I could do similar word play to get some of the nice chaos buffing spells over to order but I won't.

The fact is chaos is primarily about:
1) dealing damage and
2) secondarily about buffing their mighty creatures for more damage.

Order primarily focuses on: manipulation--illusions, mind control, and countering other spells.

The magic schools are tailored to the creatures each faction has. Shifting spells around will cause major imbalances in the factions and will destroy the uniqueness of the factions.

GOW
Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."

Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Postby Le_Faucheur » May 10 2007, 14:39

for fun, spells level 6 : :D

Death : Army of deads :
Every single dead creature on the battlefield gets resurrected (may be as a ghost).

Chaos : Meteor shower :
Casts a massive area attack (bigger than inferno) which deals insane damages, decreases the defense badly and ignores magic resistances and immunity.

Order : Disabling :
Erases all spells from the target's spellbook. May be countered by spells such as dispel.

Nature : Wrath of elements :
Summons a huge stack for each kind of elemental

Strength : Winds of war :
Every friendly unit gets a huge boost in speed and attack, is also immune against fear, and gain the counter first strike abilities. May be countered by spells such as dispel.

Life : Divine retribution :
Every friendly unit gets the magic mirror and the pain mirror (or something less powerful). May be countered by spells such as dispel.

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Postby Akul » May 10 2007, 18:07

pacobac wrote:level 5 magic is very strong, we don't need level 6 spell......

maybe this "amazing spell 6" stay on scroll, mapmaker could choice use it or not......


Yes, but as a mapmaker I sometimes get a wish to put some more powerful spells into the map and it can be great to give few of those to main enemy hero.

Of course, lv. 6 spells could only be used in SP maps so they can't affect MP maps (unless a mapmaker gets a nasty mad idea)
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Postby okrane » May 11 2007, 11:14

I am going to repost 2 spell Ideas that I thought could be really interesting in heroes 4 and I would love to have them in the game:

1) ENERGY CHANNEL

Spell School: Order
Spell Level: 3
Effect: Transfers mana between the caster and the target friendly unit
Power: 5 + (1 + 0.2 * level_of_wizardry) * level_of_caster mana transfered.
Mana cost: 5 (like any other lvl 3 spell) + the number of mana transfered.

Explanation: it is a great spell to replenish the mana of creatures that cast spells and who after using up their mana they become simply useless. The spell is not overpowered imo, because to be effective your hero must be of high level, he will use up his turn to give the mana to the casters so they can cast and after that you must have a sufficiently large caster stack in order to be effective. This can also be a use to supply a hero that finished his mana with some extra energy.

2) ENERGY DRAIN

Spell School: Death
Spell Level: 4
Effect: Drains the mana of the target enemy unit and gives it to the caster
Power: 10 + (1 + 0.2 * level_of_demonology) * level_of_caster mana transfered.
Line of Sight required.
Mana cost: 8 (like any other lvl 4 spell) - the number of mana transfered.

Explanation: Great to counter spell casting creatures by stealing their mana. This in combination with power drain will give death a marvelous counter against casting creatures and heroes. It fits really good in the death school because of the imps that drain mana, and this other spell.
Imagine nullifying the enemy fairy dragons. This I find also balanced because it's situational. The spell can be, of course, resisted.

Using the two together will result in draining mana from the enemy and then giving it to friendly spellcasting units.

I hope these two get implemented(I don't know if they can be done, but I figure it's not impossible, since the imps already have this ability which combines the two). This will make spellcasting creatures(like genies) really attractive, and with the boost that tactics got in the latest patch, I think it will not be an imbalanced addition.
Last edited by okrane on May 11 2007, 16:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » May 11 2007, 11:57

okrane wrote:I am going to repost 2 spell Ideas that I thought could be really interesting in heroes 4 and I would love to have them in the game:

1) ENERGY CHANNEL

Spell School: Order
Spell Level: 3
Effect: Transfers mana between the caster and the target friendly unit
Power: 5 + (1 + 0.2 * level_of_wizardry) * level_of_caster mana transfered.
Mana cost: 5 (like any other lvl 3 spell) + the number of mana transfered.

2) ENERGY DRAIN

Spell School: Death
Spell Level: 4
Effect: Drains the mana of the target enemy unit and gives it to the caster
Power: 10 + (1 + 0.2 * level_of_demonology) * level_of_caster mana transfered.
Mana cost: 8 (like any other lvl 4 spell) - the number of mana transfered.


I think the Energy Channel spell would be ok but Energy Drain is too powerful since it completely takes a spell casting creature out of the battle. Make it so that it drains a fixed small amount of mana and it would be ok.

GOW
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Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Postby Le_Faucheur » May 11 2007, 13:16

what would happen with the magic mirror of the fairy dragon?

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Postby okrane » May 11 2007, 15:55

drain back half of the mana stolen? :)

GOW wrote:I think the Energy Channel spell would be ok but Energy Drain is too powerful since it completely takes a spell casting creature out of the battle. Make it so that it drains a fixed small amount of mana and it would be ok.


ok... maybe we can add a line of sight requirement.

Either that or, if it is to make it a fixed amount, we should reduce it's cost then, since that way the caster would not gain nearly any mana
Maybe something like Mana cost: 1, mana drain 16....

I want to hear other opinions too... until then maybe I will add the Line of sight requirement.
Still you must keep in mind that even if it hurts badly a casting creature, the rest of them are unafected. So if this is to be on par with the rest of spells, say 4th level death ones, I think the drain should be strong,

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Postby eekstah » May 11 2007, 21:53

eekstah wrote:Or, the power of blesses/curses could improve with a hero's level or experience, instead of always giving +/- 25% effect. I think that would be cool.


Also, could Magic Resistance work the same way on curses as on it does blesses - for instance 20% MR could weaken the curse by 20% instead of giving 20% chance of resisting it completely?

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Postby iKossu » May 17 2007, 18:55

Okrane, I really liked your spell ideas. ;)

eekstah wrote:Also, could Magic Resistance work the same way on curses as on it does blesses - for instance 20% MR could weaken the curse by 20% instead of giving 20% chance of resisting it completely?


I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work. Lets assume that a creature does 2-3 points of damage. Therefore, the damage this creature does can only be reduced by 3-2=1 point. Now, how can you reduce less than one point of damage dealt? There's no way.

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Postby klaymen » May 19 2007, 16:21

what about adding (at least small) damage to wasp swarm?
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Postby eekstah » May 19 2007, 16:40

Uhm, KonserniJohtaja, I don't think you understand what I am talking about, because I surely don't understand what you are talking about :|

Lets assume that a creature does 2-3 points of damage. Therefore, the damage this creature does can only be reduced by 3-2=1 point. Now, how can you reduce less than one point of damage dealt? There's no way.

... I don't think a lot of people will actually throw a weakening spell on a single creature that does 2-3 points of damage. But let's multiply this creature with a hundred, and all of sudden it makes a whole lot more sense to, for instance, cast Weakness on them. This will cause those creatures of yours to deal 25% less damage, and this is allready how it works, my suggestion has nothing to with that, so your example is completely irrelevant.

I'm talking about Magic Resistance.

Let's just stick to those hundred creatures and the example with the Weakness spell. And let us then say that these creatures have 50% Magic Resistance.

With the current system this means that 50% of the times somebody tries to weaken these creatures, the creatures will withstand it completely.

My suggestion was that instead, the Magic Resistance will decrease the effectiveness of the spell, the same way it does with Direct Damage spells, so that in this example, the creatures will do 12,5% less damage (50% of 25%) after being weakened, instead of 25%, but they will have no chance of "blocking" it completely.


This suggestion was a fallow-up suggestion to an earlier suggestion of mine:

Spells like Weaken, Bloodlust, Disrupting Ray, Celestial Armor, Giant Strength, etc, all weaken or strengthen their targets with a constant percentage, mostly 25%.

I think it would be cool if the effect of the spells (the percentage) increased with the level of the hero casting them, and probably also his/hers mastery of the skills Wizardry, Demonology, Sorcery, Pyromancy and Meditation.

This way, all these simple spells will become more usefull with a more powerful hero, and I think that's fairer than the way it is now:

example - In a battle, both players have more or less equal strength in creatures, and both have level 1 Necromancer heroes which know the same spells, but only one of the players has learned Demonology.

Demonology should increase the effectiveness of Death Magic spells by 20%, but if the only spell the heroes know is Weakness, knowing Demonology will not give the hero any advantage.

This would be equally unfair if both the heroes were a little higher levels, let's say level 5, and one of the heroes only learned Death Magic skills, including Demonology, on his level-ups, while the other learned some combat skills.

Input?


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