Spell discusions

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Dalai
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Unread postby Dalai » 20 Mar 2006, 20:43

I want to clarify a bit on mass spells idea.

The initial problem is - spells in HoMM-IV are NOT number based. Except DD spells, of course. When your genie stack grows, you find it less useful to cast slow and more and more useful to cast Ice bolt. The opposite situation brings us to single caster exploit.

We could somehow try to fix the system as it is or rework the whole magic system from scratch. Obviously, we chose the first way.

There are absolutely no problems with DD spells and stack size - damage is proportional to number of creatures. So we had to boost only non-number based spells. That is why Fairy dragons do have Cloud of Confusion, but do not have Chain Lightning. Lightning is enough - it's power grows as the stack grows. Power of Cofusion spell doesn't.

Monks will not be changed either. There are no problems to fix with monks.
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Unread postby theGryphon » 21 Mar 2006, 01:57


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Unread postby Black Ghost » 21 Mar 2006, 20:56

As for Fd's i dont't mind leaving them with lightning.
Only lowering their number to 10 to cast Cloud would be nice :)
It wont' be too much.

What do you think Dalai of giving Ogres Antimagic instead M.R ?
This spell is artificially lowerd Antimagic, and IMO unnecesarry.
One A. on slow behemoths or T-birds wont be g-breaker...
It's just like Gnashers immunition. Other units will use M.R Structure in Stronghold or cloak...

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Unread postby theGryphon » 21 Mar 2006, 21:28

I too think AM would be better. But that may render Ogre's much better than Cyclops.

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Dalai
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Unread postby Dalai » 21 Mar 2006, 21:34

gryphonheart wrote:I'm thinking about the following spells/changes, please comment:

Order
- Bind All Flyers: level 4 (too powerful maybe?)
- Mass Flight: level 4 (think about it,
You rarely have several equally dangerous opponent flyer stacks to bind or own stacks that need to flight. Sometimes you do, but in most cases you will prefer other lvl 4 spell. Introducing spells like these would cause a lot of disappointment about poor mage guilds.
- Frost: level 3 (target creature/hero gets the icedemon's
We tried. But if spell effect is based on potion, then it can be cast efore the battle, and that is too powerful. If we fix it - spell will appear.
- Move Mass Dispel to level 4 (I think that's where it belongs as it's very powerful
I'd like to hear more opinions on that.
Nature
- Magic Resistance: level 4 (it's mentioned in Equi changelog, if it's not in already it should, 100% magic resistance
What is mentioned?
- Mass Giant Strength: level 4 (
Same as Bind All and Mass Flight - you rarely need several stacks to get boost like Giant Strength. In most cases - one. I'd prefer Summon Griffin instead.
- Mass Terrain Walk: level 3 (I didn't like the name though)
May work. Worse than Summon some elemental, but still can be a part of an interesting tactics. Though, single version of Terrain Walk would be enough too.

Death
- Life Rip or Life Vortex: level 4 (steals life from all living (non- undead, mechanical, elemental) foes and gives to
This is how Life Drain is expected to work in 3.6.
- Raise Bone Dragons: level 4 (raises boneys only from dead (non-bone) dragons, rest of definition similar to other
Too niche spell.
- Move
Good old dispute :) Too powerful on lvl 3.
- Move Animate
Never. Raise (illusion and summon) spells IMO should start higher than they are now.

Chaos
- Fire Shield: level 2 (damage from fire-based-attacks is reduced
Add defensive spell to chaos?
- Torched Attack: level 3 (makes the target foe's attack a fire-based-
Weird with Water elementals or Ice Demons :)
- Thunder Strike: level 4 (gives a friendly target the ability to strike a lightning after its attack, based on creature/hero level, number
Same weird, it's not a poison, where you can just poison a weapon.
- Change Magic Mirror such that it denies the spell totally with some probability[/b

Anything with probability leads to save-load cycles.

Life
- Increase effect of Endurance

It's not bad right now.
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Unread postby Black Ghost » 21 Mar 2006, 21:58

@Gryphonheart
I too think AM would be better. But that may render Ogre's much better than Cyclops.
I suppose not. You don't cast it always, there are 5 other good spells.
and when you use MR, would be AM so powerful that ogre would be definetly better than cyclops?
They are diffrent troops. Spellcaster(limited)-Fighter and Ranger. You cannot compare/contrast them in the way of being better or worse...

Finally, you can dispell MR, which makes it rather average protection against magic. AM is permanent :D
Might is Magic Resistance. Might doesn't use it, M. limit it.

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 21 Mar 2006, 22:25

I do not think Mass Dispel should be moved to level 4.

GOW

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Unread postby theGryphon » 21 Mar 2006, 22:38

@Black Ghost
You may be right. But AM has a disadvantage that you cannot buff the AM'ed creatures. A Blust'ed MR'ed Behemoth may be more useful than a AM'ed Behemoth. So we should be careful in deciding which is best. I doubt the Team will agree the change due to such reasons.

@Dalai
Thanks a lot for your comments. On second thought I agree with you in most.

Terror: Do you really think it's too powerful for lvl3, Order has Blind in lvl3? Then again, maybe you're right.

MR: The changelog says: "Added pictures for new Nature spells (Magic Resistance, Endurance)."

M.TerrainWalk
: I don't think it's worse than summon elementals, especially if the hero is not of very high level.

M.Dispel: I really think it belongs to lvl 4.

Thunder Strike
: It's not a poison, it's magic! :|

Frost: I hope you manage it :beg:

Life Drain (3.6): Perfect!

Fire Shield: Defensive Chaos magic: is it that weird? :lol:

Torched Attack: I thought about it in combination with Fire Shield. You can make certain creatures (ID's, WE's, Frost'ed targets, etc.) immune to it, I guess. All in all, you may find it too good (non-chaotic) a combo.

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Unread postby V3N0M » 23 Mar 2006, 20:35

Someone posted before about summon angel for life magic.
I agree that it would unbalance the game if it was in mage guild.
:creative: My sugestion is if you have gm life and nature magic you get summon angel. :D
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Unread postby theGryphon » 24 Mar 2006, 00:41

hmm... :yummy:

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Unread postby Dalai » 24 Mar 2006, 20:08

gryphonheart wrote:Terror: Do you really think it's too powerful for lvl3, Order has Blind in lvl3? Then again, maybe you're right.
It's the feedback we got after we introduced Terror on 3-rd level. :)
MR: The changelog says: "Added pictures for new Nature spells (Magic Resistance, Endurance)."
Those spell existed only as potions, so they did not require pictures for spellbook. As they were added to spellbook (Magic Resistance - to Ogre spellbook only) they needed pictures.
M.TerrainWalk: I don't think it's worse than summon elementals, especially if the hero is not of very high level.
Probably, you're right. Let's hear more opinions.
M.Dispel: I really think it belongs to lvl 4.
May be, you can make a lot better use of this spell than average player :)
Thunder Strike[/b]: It's not a poison, it's it's magic!
I mean, if it were poison, it wouldn't be very weird, cause in most cases you have some weapon to poison, be it sword or claws. But with Thunder Strike - it's about a lot of electicity. Doesn't seem natural to me, even in the magic universe :)
Frost: I hope you manage it :beg:
I hope too :)
Life Drain (3.6): Perfect!
Too early to judge ;)
Fire Shield: Defensive Chaos magic: is it that weird? :lol:
I think it's not what Chaos faction is about.
Torched Attack: I thought about it in combination with Fire Shield. You can make certain creatures (ID's, WE's, Frost'ed targets, etc.) immune to it, I guess. All in all, you may find it too good (non-chaotic) a combo.
Let's hear more opinions on this too.
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Unread postby theGryphon » 24 Mar 2006, 22:25

You're probably right about Fire Shield is that it is too non-chaotic. I was thinking about it along with using the Armageddon spell, or the Torched Attack. But it probably doesn't fit the faction.

Torched Attack by itself is also a defensive spell. It would be useful to protect the Fireguard or the Efreets. Then again, although I like the idea you may find it not-a-fit.

For the Mass Terrain Walk: Apparently it has a limited use, but it may be a really good use. However, as you said, repeated Terrain Walks should do the (almost) same trick. I don't know...

As for Thunder Strike: Yeah, it's a lot of electricity, and that's why it's a level 4 spell :) Only a powerful magic(ian) can conjure a lightning each time after his troops/fellows attack. Well, that's the story behind :) It needs to be number based with a different base damage for each troop level and per hero level (too complicated?)

Are you thinking about adding the Magic Resistance to the Mage Guild?

Is the new Life Drain going to be elevated to a higher level?

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 25 Mar 2006, 00:07

M.TerrainWalk: Not useful on all maps. Not that useful early in the game when the player really needs a level 3 spell that will help him. The elementals can greatly help nature early on if he concentrates on geting a druid to expert nature magic quickly. How about giving it as a bonus to either the beast master or beast lord class since their specials are not so nice now. Else give it to the faery dragons as a specialty spell, like magic resistance is for ogre mages.

Torched Attack: I am not entirely sure I understood what you had intended this spell to do. If it is to be act like fire shield it may be too similar to Order's Pain Mirror spell I think. IMHO chaos should stick to the direct damage spells rather than defensive damage spells.

GOW

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Unread postby theGryphon » 25 Mar 2006, 05:32

@GOW
Thanks for your comments.
Torched Attack is to be cast on the enemy, so that their attack becomes a fire-based attack. So, for example the efreet will receive half the damage from these foes, so will a Fireguard, and so will a Fire Shield'ed friend. So, it's kind of a tactical defensive spell.

Btw, Fire Shield is not in the game (yet :devious:). Maybe you meant "Fire Aura", which is very much different.

Fire Shield is supposed to give the Fireguard's specialty to the target. In short, I thought the wielders of fire (Chaos faction) should be able to protect from it. Makes more sense now? ;)

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 25 Mar 2006, 06:51

gryphonheart wrote:@GOW
Thanks for your comments.
Torched Attack is to be cast on the enemy, so that their attack becomes a fire-based attack. So, for example the efreet will receive half the damage from these foes, so will a Fireguard, and so will a Fire Shield'ed friend. So, it's kind of a tactical defensive spell.
I see what you mean now, I think. IMHO, torched attack would be too powerful even for a level 5 spell if it converts all of an enemy army's physical attack into a fire based attack. Black dragons would be imortal. Chaos could torch titans for instance and then then attack them with black dragons and not only fear no retaliation but the titan stack would be unable to harm the dragons when its turn to attack rolls around. Chaos already has terror, which is a very powerful disabling spell.
gryphonheart wrote:@GOW
Btw, Fire Shield is not in the game (yet :devious:). Maybe you meant "Fire Aura", which is very much different.

Fire Shield is supposed to give the Fireguard's specialty to the target. In short, I thought the wielders of fire (Chaos faction) should be able to protect from it. Makes more sense now? ;)
I was indeed refering to fire shield, which efreeti have naturally, and which was beefed up by equilibris to help the efreeti. Fire Shield added to the game as a castable spell I think would be too much like order's pain mirror. I had thought the touched attack you were refering to was a castable fire shield. IMHO chaos should continue to be very offensively orriented with reguard to magic.

Remember that Pain Mirror is one of the only spells order has that can cause damage (magic fist and ice bolt are fairly weak cast by a mage.) Chaos has powerful offensive magic and does not need equally powerful defensive magic.

GOW

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Unread postby Black Ghost » 25 Mar 2006, 13:59

Agree with GOW & Dalai. Chaos doesn't need defensive spells.

Question to Dalai and Eq. Team:

Could you tell us how strong will be (new) fire-based Armageddon compared to C.Lightning or Desintegrate ?
Power equal to Implosion (on current level) casted on all legal targets?

I'm looking forward to any reply :oex:

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magical comments

Unread postby TheUnknown » 26 Mar 2006, 02:23

Order: bind all fliers - would make a good lvl4 spell but nothing changes mass slow
mass flight - some of the coolest idea, should be lvl3 IMHO
berserk - it's best on lvl4 and no line of sight required
hypnotize - yes powerfull but depends how its played there are many counters like anti magic
frost - if theres torch there should be frost lvl3 ;|
m.dispel - lvl3 cos it's not always benefical altough can help sometimes quite a lot
I think bindallfliers and m.flight would cancel each other so thats interesting, m.dispel would be harder to get cos there
are lot lvl3 spells, blind should be lifted to lvl4 or stay lvl3, not bring down the terror to lvl3
Nature: rebirth - will not be that useful on nature (revive 1/5 stack on death) IMHO very good idea. Maybe should be
lower then lvl5 probably lvl4 cos sacrifice is lvl4 and revives double then your sacrificed units
m.terrain walk - mass version is unneeded IMO :disagree:
m.giant str - agreed lvl4 or even 5
anti magic on ogre magi "no" , cos some factions have curse spells some bles this leads to unbalance
Death: m.life ward - can be lvl 4 or 3 :D
could the equilibris team make animate dead and raise dead spells not to be abe to use twice on one creature and the
creature shouldn't have full mana unless it died like that???
terror - should stay lvl4 cos it's strooong, has a nice potencial with fear spell, archers and spellcasters.
Chaos: fire shield(curse) - agreed, lvl2 perhaps mass version on lvl4 or 5
magic mirror - very great spell but it should work on the last killing spell as well
torch - agreed too, lvl3
thunder atack - maybe but HERO based(similar to fire aura but stronger)
armagedon - should be made not to hit the ones with fire shield
fire shield(bles) - great retaliation to vampiric touch (percentage maybe lowered if it became spell) it's not afecting
the ones with fire shield(curse) lvl5 why not :devious:
So it is very important when to cast fire shield(curse) and on who (as for any other spell)
Life: endurance is well balanced (if balistae had bigger movemet they'll shoot everithing on sight :S)

the balance is important, this doesn't mean ruining factions
any coments welcome :)

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Unread postby theGryphon » 26 Mar 2006, 04:54

Valuable comments, thanks!
I too think that Mass Flight would be cool to have, Dalai didn't like it :hoo: Well, adding it should have a real value so that Order Guild is not weakened by useless but cool spells :)
I liked the Mass Life Ward idea, why didn't I think about it first :-D
Apparently, Torch and Fire Shield are (reasonably) not popular at all :( Btw, what do you mean by (bles) and (curse)? Anyway...
If reborn troops are permanent, than Rebirth should be lvl 5 for sure...
Being unable to use animate dead or raise spells on a dead stack? Practically, this renders them useless, IMO.

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again

Unread postby TheUnknown » 26 Mar 2006, 12:39

I didn't think much about animate dead so you are probably right, it wa weird cos animated units that died didn't leave
a corpse. Only to remind that I meant not to be able to cast it twice on the same unit.
Fire shield(bles) is the ability that reflects percentage of melee damage to atacker (efreet)
Fire shield(curse) was the ability that reduses fire based atacks by 50% and gives imunity to fire spells, it's called fire
resistance(saw it now :D ) and can be a good curse and/or bless spell.

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Unread postby Black Ghost » 26 Mar 2006, 13:18

Torch (fire attack ability) and F.Resistance (f.resistance ability like e.Elementals) are useless for Chaos.
If you were to choose between Fireball/lighnting/torch which of them would you cast in most battles? 99% Fireball and lighnting...

Lev.4/5 Fire shield (Efreet ability would be nice as in some way it's offensive spell) would be absolutely better. However as GOW posted it's too simmilar to Pain Mirror.
frost - if there's torch there should be frost lvl3
Not exactly. There's a huge diffrence between Frost(i.demon Freeze) and Cold attack (like Water Elemental's ability). It's counterpart spell to BreathAttack not Torch.
Btw. Order has only one ice-based spell, chaos has ~5 fire-based spells...
Order needs Frost more than Chaos Torch...


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