Spell discusions

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Galactygon
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Postby Galactygon » Jun 8 2007, 4:19

Yes, Berserk should be moved to Chaos.

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pacobac
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Postby pacobac » Jun 8 2007, 10:08

Of course, the strategy is "alternative", and Pain Mirror probably will not remain level 5 spell.


Dakte a snicky warior
( http://www.archangelcastle.com/h4/ligue ... ueur=Dakte ), put on his 200 dwarf "pain miror", when they attack my angel boosted, they cause few damage but the angels ripost cause them big damage (2 angel dead, dam !!!)

but you'are right Dalai, "pain miror" could become level 4 spell, and maybe TP become level 5

or creat new level 5 spell as "frost storm" similar as "chain lightening" less damage but chance tu frost some enemy

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Jun 8 2007, 10:15

if TP becomes a lvl 5 spell I suppose you should reinstall the ability to cast it also in battle...

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Dalai
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Postby Dalai » Jun 8 2007, 11:13

pacobac wrote:Dakte a snicky warior
( http://www.archangelcastle.com/h4/ligue ... ueur=Dakte ), put on his 200 dwarf "pain miror", when they attack my angel boosted, they cause few damage but the angels ripost cause them big damage (2 angel dead, dam !!!)

I knew it!! I knew it was not a pure theory and could be implemented in multiplayer! You made my day :D
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Meandor
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Postby Meandor » Jun 8 2007, 12:44

and chaos needs some 5th level non-damaging spells.


Why? 8|

Or you might look at it as a good counter for strategies like that....


Order already can rock with their magic, imho Lords should be improved, not their magic.

Yes, Berserk should be moved to Chaos.


No, it shouldn`t. Order- mind magic. Chaos- direct damage magic. Confusion is lower level spell so it fits in Chaos(like ice bolt for Order, or should it be moved to Chaos?).
...

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Jun 8 2007, 13:09

Why?


more reasons:

* in SP games when big armies are formed destructive are useless, so why learn GM Chaos then
* in MP games if all enemy heroes have GM MR, or they get the Chaos Ward artifact, these spells lose greatly their effect.

I would suggest some blessing of some kind like the Frenzy spell in H3

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Meandor
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Postby Meandor » Jun 8 2007, 15:28

Good point. And what Frenzy did in H3? Can`t remember for some reason.
...

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Jun 8 2007, 15:58

Took defense to 0 and added a huge boost to attack.

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Jun 8 2007, 16:17

Here are a few spell suggestions for chaos:

Level 5 :Frenzy

Description:Greatly increases the friendly target's attack skill, movement and speed, but severely decreases the defense skill.

Duration: 1 round.

Effect: The attack skill is multiplied by 4. The speed is increased by 5, the movement is increased by 5, The defense skill is divided by 4.

Explanation and Tactics: The main use of this spell is to do an amazingly powerful attack with one of your stacks.
Hero: 4xdamage with one of your heroes is amazingly powerful. Especially with a initial stolen retaliation. Ranged damage is even better
Hydras: these are the main reason I placed the + movement and +speed.
Imagine a devastating first attack which attacks multiple targets and cannot be retaliated.
Efreet: As their defense goes down, a retaliating hero would do so much more damage, and kill himself.
Medusas: Ranged creatures are safe from the extra damage taken.
Minotaurs: Their block ability shields them from the extra damage.

Level 5 Fury

Description: Increases the target friendly unit's damage(Note: I am talking about the damage and not the attack skill) by 1 - X where x depends on the level of the hero and masteries.

Minimum damage is increased by 1.
Maximum damage is increased by X = (1 + 0.2 * level_mastery_of_pyromancy) * Level_of_Hero.

E.g. At level 20 with GM Pyromancy this will increase the damage done by 1-40.

Duration: Until Dispelled.

Explanation and Tactics: well, the damage boost is for low level creatures. it's best used with the bless spell that does not come easy.

Level 4-5 Greater Magic Mirror

Description: All curses from all friendly targets are randomly distributed to the enemy targets.

Explanation and Tactics: This is a reversed Steal All Enchantments.

Level 5 Thunderstorm

Description: Blesses the friendly target units with lightning powers. The unit gains the Thunderbird's ability to cast lightning after every attack.

Lightning damage: same as the caster's lightning damage.
Duration: Until Dispelled

Explanation and Tactics: well, this is a damaging spell, but I really liked the idea, as I have proposed it for H5 also, but I suppose there are more chances to be implemented by our favorite modders (the Equi team) than by Nival...

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TheUnknown
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Postby TheUnknown » Jun 8 2007, 19:07

-Thunderstorm is a great idea (stronger version of fire aura is welcomed for me).
-In my opinion would be better to have a bless spell such as fire aura but to do damage when an enemy hits you, it should be a low dmg and high level spell but such a spell would triger often if you use hero armies.
-Other spell similar to fire aura would be to do damage to the attacker whenever he attacks something etc a curse.
-These would be a terrible combo but some of them might just be what chaos needs.
-Mass magic mirror is not bad idea but I'm not sure how it will fit any balance theme (if we look from the chaos point of view), it will only increase the power of chaos where it is already stronger and decrease it where it is weaker.
-Pain mirror is a great spell, it can be used in diferent situations as vampiric touch cos it is definatly strong as VampTouch, steal all enchantments is better if your enemy has a vamp touch, such situations make Pain Mirror not such a choise but it is a strong lvl 5 spell. Maybe transfer it to other school but I think it best fits Order.
-Frenzy increase movement speed not initiative and increase attack by base defense*1 and decrease defense by base defense*1 , my point of view.
I mostly agree on the other spells that already exist, the balance is great.

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Black Ghost
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Postby Black Ghost » Jun 9 2007, 11:25

Level 5 :Frenzy
Description:Greatly increases the friendly target's attack skill, movement and speed, but severely decreases the defense skill.
Duration: 1 round.
Effect: The attack skill is multiplied by 4. The speed is increased by 5, the movement is increased by 5, The defense skill is divided by 4.

Very nice finish-strike-spell, but maybe easier to make and balance would be similar effect:
Insanity (Name frenzy is used in Bloodfrenzy spell)
Friendly target divides enemy creature’s Melee Defense by 4 but cannot exceed MD 10 (like GM Melee), gains maximum bad luck (like Misfortune) and ability Berserk (like Gnasher)–“This creature must attack or move to attack every turn. It cannot wait. It’s also immune to all forms of fear.”
-enchanted unit will still deal up to 4x normal DMG but won’t be hero-killer
-enchanted unit has –50% defense (Misfortune) and –100% against dd spells
-duration would be until dispel, but with berserk ability it’s balanced
-no speed bonus, since it’s cumulative with Haste, F.Strike and Cat Reflexes>=]
Level 5 Fury
Description: Increases the target friendly unit's damage(Note: I am talking about the damage and not the attack skill) by 1 - X where x depends on the level of the hero and masteries.
Minimum damage is increased by 1.
Maximum damage is increased by X = (1 + 0.2 * level_mastery_of_pyromancy) * Level_of_Hero.
Duration: Until Dispelled.

DMG modifiers are typical to Nature and Life. Chaos should only change Melee Attack (Bloodlust/Bloodfrenzy/Slayer/M.Slayer)
IMO Frenzy/Insanity would be enough, but idea wasn’t that bad.
Level 4-5 Greater Magic Mirror
Description: All curses from all friendly targets are randomly distributed to the enemy targets.
Explanation and Tactics: This is a reversed Steal All Enchantments.

Appreciate your trying to find SAE’s counterpart but this one would be ineffective. Actually there’s more than twice much bless spells than curse ones, let alone the number of curse-factions (2) compared with bless-factions (5). Moreover, Chaos shouldn’t dispel. And against Hypnosis/Berserk it would be still too slow.
IMO Mass Magic Mirror would be better. It would retransfer any curse but not dispel it, plus could be effective against dd spells. Finally, it’d reflect Hypnosis simultaneously.

EDITED:
Level 5 Thunderstorm
Description: Blesses the friendly target units with lightning powers. The unit gains the Thunderbird's ability to cast lightning after every attack.
Lightning damage: same as the caster's lightning damage.

Hmm, very strong Fire aura. After testing Lightning power on diffrent levels and skills, I find your DMG formula perfect. T-Bird's formula would be too powerful and would instantly kill any 4th stack with only 100 bandits. "Thunderstorm" is OK :tsup:

Nevertheless, these are good ideas and continue keeping the topic live.
Last edited by Black Ghost on Jun 10 2007, 14:50, edited 1 time in total.
"Set your enemies on fire, light a campfire, or roast a duck. It's an all purpose spell!"
- Firebolt (Chaos spell, level 2)

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Black Ghost
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Postby Black Ghost » Jun 9 2007, 11:39

Nature has Dragon Strength. What about Chaos lev5 "Dragon Flame":
Target unit gains ability Arch Breath like Mega Dragon (it's also Fire Attack like Fire.E) . Unlike hydra's Multiple Attack it could be a double edged sword.
"Set your enemies on fire, light a campfire, or roast a duck. It's an all purpose spell!"

- Firebolt (Chaos spell, level 2)

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Jun 10 2007, 11:57

well, I just hope some new spells get implemented, and that I'm not wasting my breath here...

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jeff
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Postby jeff » Jun 10 2007, 15:19

I believe there will be spells modified and others added in the next version, but is the next version going to be released before all Windows XP machines are gathering dust. ;|
Mala Ipsa Nova :bugsquash:

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Postby Le_Faucheur » Jun 11 2007, 19:30

chaos, level 4 : meteor shower. hits the same area than a fireball. deals 60 damages + 6 per hero level (fireball does 40 +4 per hero level, and lightning bolt does 70 + 7 per hero level)

I think I found an awesome combo with pain mirror.

if I remember well :
-cast pain mirror on a friendly unit.
-hypnotize the big enemy stack.
-use martyr to protect your stack with pain mirror with the hypnotized enemy stack.

each times the hypnotized stack attack your stack, you will receive no damages and it will receive 150% of the damages it inflicted (183% with efreets)

if other enemy stacks attack your stack, they will be hurt by the pain mirror, deal damages to the hypnotized stack, but do no damages to yours.

btw, if mass cancelation becomes a level 4 spell, you could put plague at level 5, with 30 damages + 3 per hero level (currently 10 + 1 per hero level)

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Postby Le_Faucheur » Jun 17 2007, 12:38

also, isn't martyre too powerful for a level 2 spell?

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Postby pacobac » Jun 17 2007, 22:09

and dispel or cancel not too big ?!!
all spell are big on battle, just use it at the good moment, if u play "martyre" too early, enemy dispel it, if you play slow on the angel, it's could be better than other master spell.......

mass cancel on level 4, dam ,!!! it's little stupid, this spell could be the best on finale battle

had you try: assassin (17 speed): play mass cancel, first devil stak kill enemy tactik, second kill priest......angel could resurected tactik but venom kill him again.....haven is dead....

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Jun 18 2007, 1:35

@ Dalai

Please look into my nicely formated spell suggestions! I put a lot of thinking into them and I hope you will consider them.

Waiting for an opinion at least.

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Dalai
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Postby Dalai » Jun 18 2007, 8:42

okrane wrote:@ Dalai

Please look into my nicely formated spell suggestions! I put a lot of thinking into them and I hope you will consider them.

Waiting for an opinion at least.

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll comment on them later.

What is more important, the probability of new spells apeering is very low. At least on our current level.

If you want opinions, I would recommend paying more attention to opinins of multiplayer experts. For example, Pacobac or csarmi play online more often than me, and their opinions are based on actual experience in mercyless multiplayer environment.
"Not a shred of evidence exists in favour of the idea that life is serious." Brendan Gill

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Postby Le_Faucheur » Jun 18 2007, 10:07

I was speaking about the single player game pacobac.
and mass cancellation is one of the biggest problem. extremly powerful in multiplayer, but crappy against the AI.
like someone said, maybe there could be 2 versions of equilibris, one for multiplayer, one for single player.


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