Spell discusions

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okrane
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Postby okrane » Feb 24 2007, 23:00

Galactygon wrote:I developed a nice formula for exponential spells. Using a modifier of (Base + (Spell Effect) * (Level^1.Level)) would be better than simply squaring the level (that would be ridiculus).

For example, at level 9, assuming you have GM pyromancy, GM sorcery, disintegrate would cause 692 damage (330+33*(9^1.09)) rather than 627 damage (330+33*9). At level 40, disintegrate would cause 6103 damage (330+33*(40^1.40)) rather than 1650 (330+33*40) damage.

The same should be applied for healing, summoning, and other non-damaging spells that increase with power (such as hand of death).

At the beginning of the game, the difference is barely noticable, but by higher levels (especially 30+), spells that are based on levels don't fall behind other spells not based on level modifiers. So hypnotize might not be much stronger than disintegrate or armageddon... the way it should be.

By the way, the damage multiplier of armageddon should be upped by 1 or 2, since it causes the same amount of damage as Fireball and Inferno.

I am hoping these changes are implementable.

-Galactygon


could you do that?... pls?

and maybe think about adding an eficiency formula for all the spells... just as I asked a few posts back? (if you can mod it, at least include an option that would allow all spells to have eficiency formulas, that you could enable before a game)

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Postby Galactygon » Mar 12 2007, 16:03

I am still wonering what Dalai and the rest of the Equilibris team thinks about the exponential formula when calculating the power of spells cast by heroes (creatures would still use the linear formula).

By the way, I was wondering whether or not some of the graphics for HoMM5 spells could be transferred to HoMM4. Implosion and Armageddon look much better in HoMM5.

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Postby Dalai » Mar 12 2007, 18:41

Galactygon wrote:I am still wonering what Dalai and the rest of the Equilibris team thinks about the exponential formula when calculating the power of spells cast by heroes (creatures would still use the linear formula).

Heroes gain levels as they gain experience. The formula for this is sort of exponential. And there is a good reason for that ;)
What you actually offer is making spell power depend on experience rather than level. It is interesting, but against that reason. I think it's still worth testing.

By the way, I was wondering whether or not some of the graphics for HoMM5 spells could be transferred to HoMM4. Implosion and Armageddon look much better in HoMM5.

No, sorry.
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Postby Galactygon » Mar 12 2007, 21:12

[quote="Dalai]
What you actually offer is making spell power depend on experience rather than level. It is interesting, but against that reason. I think it's still worth testing.[/quote]

Pretty much yes. Since spell power would still be dependant on level rather than experience, there would still be some curve to it. But not as steep of a curve.

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Postby timagalant » Apr 14 2007, 15:50

Dalai wrote:Heroes gain levels as they gain experience. The formula for this is sort of exponential. And there is a good reason for that ;)
What you actually offer is making spell power depend on experience rather than level. It is interesting, but against that reason. I think it's still worth testing.


Actually, I think he's right about that.
As you just learn disintigrate (or any DD spells) it is very powerful (in comparison to the number of creatures in armies), but as the game goes on, the heroes gain levels very slowly while creatures cotinue to grow in the same rate, making DD spells much less powerful.

I mean, let's say a level 20 hero would do 1000 damage with disintigrate. You would need like.. (at least) 5 times more experience to get to level 40, but the spell would do double that damage (2000) at the most.

Maybe you could do something that doesn't increase damage, but decreases MR for creatures targeted by those spells, so that it damages heroes just the same (because health doesn't grow THAT much)

But yeah, DD spells on high levels should be stronger.

Man, I type a lot.

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Postby eekstah » Apr 16 2007, 1:53

timagalant wrote:As you just learn disintigrate (or any DD spells) it is very powerful (in comparison to the number of creatures in armies), but as the game goes on, the heroes gain levels very slowly while creatures cotinue to grow in the same rate, making DD spells much less powerful.

I mean, let's say a level 20 hero would do 1000 damage with disintigrate. You would need like.. (at least) 5 times more experience to get to level 40, but the spell would do double that damage (2000) at the most.

Good point, but I don't quite agree to this:
timagalant wrote:Maybe you could do something that doesn't increase damage, but decreases MR for creatures targeted by those spells, so that it damages heroes just the same (because health doesn't grow THAT much)

because few creatures have any magic resistanse at all, so this won't have that much effect.

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Postby timagalant » Apr 16 2007, 10:48

I was thinking of something "diablo style", where you can have -resistance. So it would actually have an effect.

But now that I think about it, it might not be possible/easy to do.

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Postby eekstah » Apr 16 2007, 14:47

In HoMM2 (and possibly 3, I don't remember), both curses and blesses lasted only for a limited number of turns. Maybe it could be concidered going back to this system, so that high level heroes have an advantage over lower heroes when casting these spells, because their effect is constant.

Or, the power of blesses/curses could improve with a hero's level or experience, instead of always giving +/- 25% effect. I think that would be cool.

For DD spells, maybe other things than just actual damage could improve, as for instance duration, range, radius and precision, as the hero's level/exprerience grows.

Fireballs could for instance cover larger areas.
Chain lightning could have increasingly larger chance of "dodging" friendly targets, and possibly last longer.
etc.


Semi-diversion: Crusaders should be extra volrunable to lighting. I mean, have you seen how they hold their swords up in the air? They're asking for it! And, they're completely covered by metal.
Last edited by eekstah on Apr 17 2007, 2:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby timagalant » Apr 16 2007, 18:07

eekstah wrote:In HoMM2 (and possibly 3, I don't remember), both curses and blesses lasted only for a limited number of turns. Maybe it could be concidered going back to this system, so that high level heroes have an advantage over lower heroes when casting these spells, because their effect is constant.

The thought it right, but I don't think that's the way to do it. I like it being constant.

eekstah wrote:Or, the power of blesses/curses could improve with a hero's level or experience, instead of always giving +/- 25% effect. I think that would be cool.

Yeah, I like that. I have always thought it would be good. But there are some stuff that it can't be done to. Bless would possible boost the creature's max damage, and vice versa for curse. But let's say.. Blind, or..exorcism, can't really be enhanced.
Good idea.

eekstah wrote:For DD spells, maybe other things than just actual damage could improve, as for instance duration, range, radius and precision, as the hero's level/exprerience grows.

Fireballs could for instance cover larger areas.
Chain lightning could have increasingly larger chance of "dogding" friendly targets, and possibly last longer.
etc.

Yeah, that's pretty cool. The fractions for chain lightning can also get larger as the hero gains level.. like instead of doing 1/2 to the 2nd target, 1/4 to the third, and so on, it could be 0.6,0.7,0.75 to the second (dependant on level), and the same to the third and forth.

But some DD spells would have to be increased only in damage.. like fire bolt, or magic arrow.

eekstah wrote:Semi-diversion: Crusaders should be extra volrunable to lighting. I mean, have you seen how they hold their swords up in the air? They're asking for it! And, they're completely covered by metal.

LOL! Hold that thought! Ice vulnerability to fire elementals, phoenixes and efreeti. Fire vulnerability to water elementals, ice demons, genies, and such.
If teleporting units attack from behind, it inflicts critical damage, etc, etc.
Oh, and gold golems would be vulnerable to lightning too. Gold is quite the good conductor.
If we tried to make everything too realistic it would hurt though. Firing arrows on gold armor doesn't seem like such a good idea, yet it does full damage. And stuff.

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Postby Galactygon » May 1 2007, 1:14

To the Equilibris team: It would be a sensible idea to change the spell school of Berserk from Order to Chaos, for obvious reasons.

-Galactygon

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Postby Meandor » May 1 2007, 16:37

Chaos is more about direct damage while order is about manipulation so imho berserk is fine where it is.
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Postby Galactygon » May 2 2007, 0:15

Chaos is more about direct damage while order is about manipulation so imho berserk is fine where it is.


Doesn't Confusion involve the manipulation of minds?

Berserk and Bloodlust have more in common than Berserk and Blind.

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Postby Siegfried » May 2 2007, 6:33

I agree. Berserk fits better to chaos, and confusion fits better to order. Although these spell alignments are not absolutely clear. Berserk and confusion are both mind affecting spells. But most schools have one or two spells which resemble the base ideas of another school. The ice bolt is such an example.

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Postby timagalant » May 2 2007, 8:57

Siegfried wrote:I agree. Berserk fits better to chaos, and confusion fits better to order. Although these spell alignments are not absolutely clear. Berserk and confusion are both mind affecting spells. But most schools have one or two spells which resemble the base ideas of another school. The ice bolt is such an example.


Chaos and Order are compelte opposites , yet are so much alike.
This is because order is about controlling things, including the other team, therefore making chaos is their team. Hypnotize can be an good example.

Confusion is not about controlling. It's about confusing the enemy so he can't act, and that belongs to chaos imo.
The situation with berserk is hard to determine, and there will always be people who think it's better the other way.
It makes chaotic bahavior, but in a way that the caster can presume the way the monster is gonna act, getting it closer to Order.

I can't decide where it should belong, and I don't really mind.

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Postby Akul » May 2 2007, 12:46

Question to Equi team:

Is it possible to, for example, if you have Gm Life Magic and GM Death Magic to get a new spell that is connected with thiese two aligments (like Death+Demonology = Summon Demon spells)?

In this example, the spell would cast Mass Bless and Mass Curse at the same time.
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Postby Galactygon » May 3 2007, 0:46

timagalant wrote:Confusion is not about controlling. It's about confusing the enemy so he can't act, and that belongs to chaos imo.
The situation with berserk is hard to determine, and there will always be people who think it's better the other way.
It makes chaotic bahavior, but in a way that the caster can presume the way the monster is gonna act, getting it closer to Order.


The two schools have many things in common, but Chaos is a much weaker spell school than Order. So I will say Berserk for Chaos!

I would even go as far as mentioning that Forgetfullness fits Chaos more than Order, and that Teleporting spells (Teleport, Town Gate) should become available to all schools.

Only in these cases could the other 4 schools compete with order (although the presence of Hypnotize would still make order more powerful than the other 4 schools).

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Postby Akul » May 3 2007, 12:36

IMO, confussion would better fit in Order school. Confusion can only be done through illusions or mind control, and both of theise two are Order aligned effects.
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Postby okrane » May 3 2007, 13:13

are we trying to overpower order here or what? you have blind in order, much better than confusion... if we're talking about the cloud, I think order already has enogh good spells to keep up with this one...

Personally I agree that berserk would look good in chaos, but it also looks good in order, so I can't really decide. It would be cool if it would increase damage as in heroes 5...

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Postby Metathron » May 5 2007, 9:13

I agree with everyone that Berserk seems to fit well in both magic schools, and I couldn't really decide which way to go here, but Galactygon provided a simple but convincing argument: Chaos is weaker than Order, so Berserk should go to Chaos!

I'd also like to add another bonus to Berserk, perhaps 50% to attack?
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Postby okrane » May 5 2007, 9:17

sounds good to me... let's see what the devs have to say.

Can you cast it on your creatures also?


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