Dungeon Creatures Statistics

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Moragauth
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Dungeon Creatures Statistics

Postby Moragauth » Aug 3 2007, 10:36

The Shadow Mistress will be quite good with Righteous Might - it'll boost her attack to 29.

Inisto
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Postby Inisto » Aug 7 2007, 14:13

The Dark elves have high stats because they eat healthy nutritious meals which makes them look good but the Haven peasants spend time at McDonalds which makes them fat idiots hardly capable of withstanding a hit or two.

Not posted,Inisto =)

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Postby Wraith » Sep 2 2007, 10:49

shadow witch and shadow matriachs sucks,i never buy they dwellings is its wasting of money

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Postby Elvin » Sep 2 2007, 12:46

I cannot agree. Yes they are expensive and their upg dwelling is outrageous but I have found them very helpful with slow/righteous might early(a few split) or shooting for the endgame - especially with a bow. Their damage may not seem enough but if you add the warlock's attack stat possibly buffed with enlightenment it can be pretty good.
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Postby Wraith » Sep 3 2007, 14:35

well too bad i shuold give this waste for one more chance

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aaelgr
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Postby aaelgr » Sep 3 2007, 15:45

Shadow Witches/Matriarchs are very useful in my experience, and with Eruina are just deadly (the extra shot when you cast a spell is nice too). If there was a creature that could do with a boost it's the Minotaurs. They hardly ever get to hit anything before the other units!

@Zamolxis. Wouldn't basic defence be better? ;-)
Edited on Mon, Sep 03 2007, 11:54 by aaelgr
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Postby Wraith » Sep 3 2007, 16:11

OH'RLY? they are good against what? peasants? they are only good with unicorn horn bow,without that 40 matriach kill 1-4 blackies or 1-2 magmas useless same thing against tier 5-6 creatures and sometimes against tier 4

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Postby Wraith » Sep 3 2007, 16:15

minotaur guards are very useful to combine grim raider,and they double attack is useful without grim raider also,they have always positive morale.

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Elvin
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Postby Elvin » Sep 3 2007, 16:46

No they are useful because they usually don't die right away :D Maybe only with teleport assault.
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Postby Wraith » Sep 3 2007, 17:43

heh they are always your last card and most times you win with them

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aaelgr
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Postby aaelgr » Sep 3 2007, 18:03

Perhaps I wasn't clear. They're useful for the spells they cast more than the damage they do. The reason I mentioned Eruina is because she increases their damage. Minotaurs are useful, but I've found that it's only in the longer battle where they actually do anything. The fighting tends to be over before they get involved (though I admit that Teleport Assault remedies that).
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Moragauth
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Dungeon Creatures Statistics

Postby Moragauth » Sep 26 2007, 11:40

"OH'RLY? they are good against what? peasants? they are only good with unicorn horn bow,without that 40 matriach kill 1-4 blackies or 1-2 magmas useless same thing against tier 5-6 creatures and sometimes against tier 4"

I also disagree on this - they are useful units. The shadow mistress will be much stronger than them though (about the only Dungeon alternate that is much stronger than the original), so Nival might have to rebalance the Matriarch.

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Postby Galib » Oct 7 2007, 20:05

Why should they rebalance it? If every other alternate dungeon upgrade is worthless, why make shadow misstrisses worthless?

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Moragauth
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Postby Moragauth » Oct 8 2007, 15:06

I don't think you understood me. The Matriarch is nearly worthless compared to the Mistress - hence I meant to rebalance her, not the Mistress (who is actually worth her extreme cost.) As for the alternates, most of Dungeon's are very useful, so I am not sure what you mean.

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Postby Inisto » Nov 19 2007, 18:33

Yes but the Matriarchs don't quite fit in the Dungy.They're supportive spell:Righteous might does'nt work on the Black Dragon and their Curses are somewhat gay because the Dark elfs focus on destroying their enemy as quick as possible.

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Moragauth
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Postby Moragauth » Dec 22 2007, 0:13

Yeah, they need to be reworked, no objection to that. ;)

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Tyber Zann
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Postby Tyber Zann » Sep 18 2013, 0:42

Inisto, I didn't know they where lesbians. Their outfits are distracting enough, now I'm gonna be thinking about that. Thanks! Anyway, about the new units...

1) Scout: The dungeon takes an odd turn here. The new stalkers seem more like traditional assassins, with their ability to cloak and strike from the shadows. It's an impressive ability, but unfortunately they are still outdone by the original assassin upgrade. Basically because Assassins have "no melee penalty", they are almost as effective in close quarters as stalkers (stalkers do a little extra damage, but that doesn't make up for losing their ranged attack). The main function of these units is poisoning your enemies anyway, and assassins can do that faster. Stalkers must use a turn to cloak, then use turns running toward the enemy, and still risk being interrupted in the process. These turns are turns that an assassin would spend inflicting poison. By the time a stalker made its first hit, an assassin would have poisoned half the enemy units. Since poison damage is based on number of units inflicting poison, this makes assassins the clear better choice. The only situation I can imagine where stalkers are better is for creeping, since neutral stacks would be less likely to interrupt the stalkers (no hero casting spells and often less stacks). So, if u go creeping with a few stacks of stalkers, u could potentially suffer less casualties than with assassins. It's a thin line though, and I still prefer the reliability of assassins.

Assassin wins.

2) Blood Maiden: This ones a pretty close call. The two upgrades are similar, but I think the witch wins this one. Basically, they both behave the same way. Really fast, strike and return with no enemy retaliation. The difference? Witches have quite a bit more HP and are also immune to weakness. The old school Maidens are faster (16 initiative rather than 14), making them the fastest unit in the game, and they have more reliable damage (5-7, rather than 3-8). So, Maidens are a little deadlier, while witches are much sturdier. The thing is, they're both fast enough to run circles around other units, and their damage is close enough that number of units is the desciding factor. Since witches have more HP, they survive longer, maintain higher numbers, and therefore do more damage overall. I find the main problem with maidens is that they die too easily, and the witch upgrade is the perfect cure for this.

Blood witch wins.

3) Minotaur: This ones easy. Guard all the way. The new taskmaster has more HP, and more damage, but loses the awesome "double attack" ability. This is what separates minotaurs from your average mid tier melee unit. Without it, they're nothing special. The only case where the taskmaster might be better is if your using them as early tanks, before you have access to hydras. But, once hydras are in your army (I'd say the 2nd strongest tank in the game, next to the tree ent) you will have no need for a second tank unit. Turn those taskmasters into guards and watch em double slice ur enemies to ribbons.

Minotaur Guard wins.

4) Lizards: This ones pretty close. Both upgrades are great units, but it looks like the new black rider is just a little more useful. Their stats are almost identical. Grim has 2 extra max damage, black has 1 extra initiative (which does make a difference). It's the abilities that make the difference. The old school grims get the rider charge, doing extra damage with each tile crossed, sort of like cavaliers, but by negating defense rather than increasing damage (which makes Cavaliers ability superior). Anyway, that's great, but its hard to pull off after the first hit, making them less useful as the battle unfolds. They then become an auxiliary hitter, getting free shots at adjacent enemies that are attacked by other units. Black riders can do this as well, and what's more, they've traded the rider charge for a more useful ability that is more suited to a unit that specializes in getting free hits. The black rider inflicts physical damage on every enemy unit it touches while moving, and receives no retaliation for these free hits. On top of its "lizard bite" free hits, this unit can slay enemy stacks without ever even "attacking them". As such, its just a little more useful.

Black riders win.

5) Hydra: The Dungeons primary tank unit. Both upgrades help in this case. Let's analyse. The old school deep hydra does full spread damage (melee attack damages all adjacent enemies in one attack), has "no enemy retaliation" (great for dishing out damage while maintaining its "tank" role), and has "enraged", which increases its damage as allied stacks die. As a final bonus, it also has "regeneration", which restores HP every turn and can even resurrect fallen Deep Hydra (up to and including the quantity that entered the battle). That's an impressive package for 1 unit, especially considering its high HP value and descent damage. It's only drawback is that it is slow. Pfffft. It's a tank, it doesn't have to be fast (though fast tanks like the gargoyle can quickly change position if needed). So how does the new acidic hydra compare? (These names r a little off so I'm just using the names from the list above for now). Well, its almost the same. Little more HP, little less damage. Same set of abilities, except, it trades "regeneration" for "acid blood", like a xenomorph alien I suppose. Kinda looks like one as well. Acid blood is a lot like fire shield. It returns a portion of damage to enemy melee attackers. Acid blood is physical damage, however, and is calculated as such (fire shield being fire elemental), it also effects a 2x2 area behind the target. So how does this relate to performance? Who's a better tank. That's tough. The acid hydra has more HP, but no regeneration. So, really, the deep hydra can take more abuse before dieing. However, the acid hydra discourages attackers by providing return damage. Hmmm. Well, the acid hydra can fend off attackers more effectively, but, since its ability discourages attackers, that actually makes it a less effective tank. Tanks want to be attacked. That's their purpose. To take damage in place of other units. The acid hydra is better as a generic attacking unit, but since its slow and the only effective tank unit in the dungeon arsenal, it must fill the role of a tank. Therefore, the classic deep hydra is simply a better choice. Even when using the "strictly hydra" tactic of only using hydras as a HP pool while using your warlock to cast spells, the deep hydra will last longer and therefore performs the job better.

Deep hydra wins.

6) Shadow witch: Arguably one of the best units in the game. Powerful shooter & caster, and capable of taking significant abuse, Shadow witches are a force to be feared. So which upgrade is better? I hate to say it but once again, the old school upgrade wins. I actually like the idea of "cloaking" introduced in the new dungeon lineup, but, just like with the stalker, the shadow mistress sacrifices its ranged attack for the "cloak" ability, and that is simply unacceptable. Unlike with the assassin, who's ranged attack is incredibly weak and serves only to deliver poison, the shadow matriarch has a powerful ranged attack, made even more effective by its high combat stats (being a tier 6 shooter, outclassed only by the Titan/Storm Titan). By relinquishing this ranged attack, the new shadow mistress has given up its most useful attribute, and replaced it with something much less useful. Cloaking is great, but the time it takes for the mistress to cloak, then sneak in is too long (not to mention the risk involved), and even if she does make an awesome sneak attack, she is now deep in enemy territory and likely to suffer heavy casualties. Not good for an expensive, low growth unit. The Shadow Matriarch fills the much needed role of shooter in the warlocks army, who otherwise would have only assassins (assuming they didn't go with stalkers in stead). The ability to shoot people is infinitely more useful than the off chance of being able to whip someone when they're not looking.

Shadow Matriarch wins.

7) Shadow Dragon: Finally, a tough call. We've got 2 upgrade options, either of which will have your enemies soiling themselves. So which one is "better". Uuuuuuhhhhhh.
Stats are close. The old school black dragon has a little more HP and a bit more max damage, but the new Red dragon has 1 more initiative than the black dragon. Abilities? Both can fly, both have fire breath (attack damages units one tile.behind the tile that is attacked (if any)). Here's where they differ. The black dragon is immune to magic, the red dragon has an ability called "incinerate", which is a special attack (activated ability) that damages one unit without triggering retaliation. This attack also inflicts %50 more damage than a normal attack. This is very useful, and can only be outdone if the normal fire breath attack kills the initial target, which would prevent retaliation as well, and possibly inflict greater overall damage that incinerating a single target. So, who's better? I say it depends on your enemies. Might oriented? Red dragon. Magic oriented? Black dragon. Both? Uuuhhhhh. Hmmmmm. I'd say Red dragon, since their ability to dish out damage without receiving it can be used in any situation, wheras the Black Dragons magic immunity will only help in some situations. Enemy magic users will likely target your more vulnerable units anyway (blood maiden/witches seem to have targets painted on them cause they always take the first hits). The only spell a Black Dragons immunity would be really worth preventing is puppet master or frenzy, but then there's always the chance the enemy has Sandros cloak. Too many variables. The Red Dragon is simply more reliable most of the time. Unless you know the enemy has a Puppet master store and DOESN'T have sandros cloak, Red dragons will serve you better.

Red dragons win (unless ur facing dark magic users with no Sandro cloak)

That's it. I'm actually trying to find more useful applications for the "cloak" capable units, because I do like the ability itself. I'll let u all know if I discover anything. And of coarse, if anyone disagrees or can disprove my theories, please, don't hesitate. I'm always up for a good debate.


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