Utopia in a Month

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DaemianLucifer
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Re: First Month Utopia

Postby DaemianLucifer » Jul 27 2006, 19:37

ThunderTitan wrote: How is using something that won't ever work in MP unless you're playing against your cat "training for MP"?


The same way punching a bag or running laps is considered part of preparations for a boxing match.

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Re: First Month Utopia

Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 27 2006, 19:48

DaemianLucifer wrote:The same way punching a bag or running laps is considered part of preparations for a boxing match.


You mean that match where you actualy throw punches at a solid body while you move your legs?! :devious:

I was wondering in the sense of how it helps as opposed to playing it for real. One would think that might help more.

But MER meant it as just playing the game. I got that from his second post thank you.
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Postby Ethric » Jul 27 2006, 20:29

So now people are saying that doing anything the AI isn't capable of doing\thinking of is an exploit 8|

Why even play against the AI then, just set all players AI controlled and you could watch. That way no-one is exploiting...
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 27 2006, 21:05

Ethric wrote:So now people are saying that doing anything the AI isn't capable of doing\thinking of is an exploit


No, exploiting the AI's weakness is an exploit. Any tactic that only works because the AI is flawed is an exploit. Why do people keep complaining about the AI being stupid but still think using it's stupidity against it is a great tactic? Wouldn't you prefer the AI stay stupid then?
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Postby stijn » Jul 27 2006, 21:37

Any tactic that only works because the AI is flawed is an exploit
well the ai gets double creature growth and more money, so i think we can be glad there's certain 'tactics' that only works against the ai. cause if i were playing against myself with more money and creature growth, i would win without any doubt B-)

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Postby DaemianLucifer » Jul 27 2006, 21:48

Actually its the other way round.The AI gets all those bonuses because the devs know its not smart enough and that the players will exploit it.

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Postby Ethric » Jul 27 2006, 22:05

ThunderTitan wrote:No, exploiting the AI's weakness is an exploit. Any tactic that only works because the AI is flawed is an exploit.


Practically no game has an AI that is not weaker than a human (except perhaps for some with a very basic mechanic). Giving the AI unfair advantages (cheating) does not remove the weaknesses, only obscure and compensate for them. So just the act of playing against the AI and doing stuff better than it is then an exploit. Obviously, this isn't so. Human players have their strenghts and weaknesses, AI players have their strenghts and weaknesses. And there are both poor AI's and poor human players, each with varying strenghts and weaknesses. A good AI or human player seems to be simply one that has more strenghts than weaknesss.

ThunderTitan wrote:Why do people keep complaining about the AI being stupid but still think using it's stupidity against it is a great tactic? Wouldn't you prefer the AI stay stupid then?


However good the AI, humans will try to find ways to beat it. Now, this should not be too easy, but what constitutes too easy will vary greatly with the skill of the human player. You refer to everyone, like everyone is one homogenous mass that think the same things here. Some will want the AI to be so good as to eliminate as many weaknesses as possible. Some will find some of those weaknesses ok because it allows them to use certain tactis to do things that at first glance seems impossible.
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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 27 2006, 22:18

For crying out loud. Weakness as in flaw. You wouldn't consider outruning a guy missing a leg as a great victory achieved by the great strategy you used, would you?
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Postby Ethric » Jul 27 2006, 22:32

No, nor would I jump of a cliff with a banana up my nose thinking it'll make me fly or make out with the prince of Wales thinking I've scored miss universe. But what's that got to do with anything in this discussion?

Me in reasonably good shape outrunning someone else in reasonably good shape but missing a leg wouldn't be a great achievement. But if you want to compare to the original topic, that is beating a bunch of dragons with some haven riffraff, you could perhaps compare it to a snail outrunning a onelegged man. But it's still not particualrily relevant.
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Postby stijn » Jul 27 2006, 22:36

No, nor would I jump of a cliff with a banana up my nose thinking it'll make me fly or make out with the prince of Wales thinking I've scored miss universe.
lol, i was about to post a similar example :D

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 27 2006, 22:54

Philistines....

You're taking advantage of a guys disability. That's an exploit. Get it now?!
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Postby Ethric » Jul 27 2006, 23:15

Oh really? So if you play against another person who isn't exactly as skilled as you are, you are exploiting him?

You put to much into the word, when it comes to exploiting the system of a game it means more than just taking advantage of the AI's shortcomings, it's more of a circumventing\breaking the rules alltogether thing. Can be a fuzzy line of course, but the way you explain it at least is wrong.
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First Month Utopia

Postby val-gaav » Jul 27 2006, 23:37

"Not to mention the fact, that all 'creature banks' in H3 used special batllefield setup, to make conqering them harder and such tactics(exploits) were simply impossible. Well, there were tips to raid Naga Banks early in the game, but Dragon Utopias were for tough armies only."

Actually I have many times conquired dragon utopia with Tazar + 3-5 hydras + splited lizardsman
and yes 3 hydras were enough if the hero had high level ...

The trick is to make a good positioning of those units and dragons will go dump and instead of attacking hydras will press wait (or defend ) for a couple of turns...

So please do not say that h3 was so great , hard , with fantastic AI .... etc etc ....

and it's not an very bad exploit as it involves tactics .... one wrong move and you may loose your army and even the hero ... BTW it was permited in h3 MP and nobody ended game becouse of this... and actually there are some other nice tricks you could do in h3 ;)

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 27 2006, 23:41

It's not about how well it plays, but how it plays. If the other guy doesn't see red units and you're using only red units you're clearly exploiting his disability.

If the AI doesn't go after 165 Archers because that 1 peasant is closer you're exploiting his disability to plan ahead.
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Postby Paulus1 » Jul 27 2006, 23:44

ThunderTitan wrote:Exploits are also strategies/tactics that allow you to defeat the opponent in a way the designers didn't intend.

Who says the designers didn't intend this kind of tactics?
Otherwise they might as well have left all battlefield obstacles out of the game.

IMO this is an example of brilliant battlefield tactics, though it clearly has it's limits, since the battlefield has to fit precisely.

If the AI doesn't go after 165 Archers because that 1 peasant is closer you're exploiting his disability to plan ahead.

Try to take another look at the screenshots. Even if the AI has several moves in row, it can't reach the Marksmen, because of the layout of the battlefield (dragon taking down peasants will block the other dragons).

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 27 2006, 23:58

Paulus1 wrote: Even if the AI has several moves in row, it can't reach the Marksmen, because of the layout of the battlefield (dragon taking down peasants will block the other dragons).


Yes it can. Just have one of the dragons get behind the one attacking the peasant.

The thing is that you might trick a human once with this, but it will always work on the AI, and that's why it's an AI exploit.

A wak runner could get better at it, but a guy with only 1 leg won't.
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Postby Ethric » Jul 28 2006, 0:01

Heard of paralympics? Those guys would probably outrun most of us unfit game nerds. I'm telling you, that comparison of yours is no good...
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Postby Paulus1 » Jul 28 2006, 0:05

ThunderTitan wrote: Yes it can. Just have one of the dragons get behind the one attacking the peasant.

Please, tell us how you would have done things differently, playing the dragons. Youl will soon have 2 or 3 stacks moving in a row (depends if marksmen kill Black Dragons).

Or was the AI mistake earlier on in your opinion? If so, what should have been done differently? And please be specific, so it can be tested..

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 28 2006, 1:21

Didn't i already say?!

If you still don't see it then i'll tell you after i wake up. G'night.

And E. - not without them crutches... :devil:
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Jul 28 2006, 6:52

Though it is really clever,it is still the exploit of the fact that a single peasant can block a huge dragon from going anywhere.

And it would be very simple to win this one with loosing just a bunch of shadows.Just wait with blackies,attack with shadows,swoop in with blackies and anihilate the archer.No matter how hard the enemy tries,he cannot outrun the blackies.The problem with the AI is that it uses wait only when theres nothing else to play.


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