Discourses of M&M

[Caradoc]

Let me take Fnord's point on graphics a step forward -- it could be that new graphics are ALL that matters. I would guess that to most customers, graphics will be the ONLY perceived difference to previous Heroes games.



Here at Forum we tend to dwell so much on differences that we lose sight of things that are common to all versions, and I strongly suspect that it is these common factors that best define the Heroes product line in the general market. Most potential customers could give a fig about caravans or heroes on the battlefield. They want a lightweight turn based strategy game with lots of adventure objects.



I will go so far as to speculate that the lack of success for Heroes IV was more due to the collapse of the developer than to customer distaste for particular features. Lack of MP was probably what did it.



If Heroes V delivers a state of the art presentation, a sound AI, and workable MP, it is going to succeed. The skill system, caravanning, heroes on the battlefield, and all the rest just do not matter.

[CloudRiderX]

Corribus you're a genius! Absolutely everything you wrote makes sense. What made me laugh was the Squaresoft remark which unfortunately, was true. And to relate, I'll provide a story of my own, which, ironically, has something to do with Squaresoft, or Square-Enix.



1997, Final Fantasy 7 hit the market, being the first Final Fantasy game for the Playstation, since Nintendo sold the series to Sony due to lack of income. Why? I don't know. I've looked at them, and they have many interesting ideas. But Final Fantasy 7 made Sony RICH. What about it did everyone like?

Just like the HOMM series did so well because they let players be the creators, FF7 let players, in a nutshell, customize their characters. This was due to special stones that could be equipped in characters weapons and armor that gave them certan abilities. But they could only be used when equipped. What happens? Players can use any characters they want, they can pick their favorites, and load them up with abilities. Have to use a certin character? Who cares? Just take all your characters stones and give them to the other. It's easy. Of course, different weapons and armor had different amounts of slots you could use, which allowed for endless possibilities, but it's pretty long to explain here. Did the words 'endless possibilites' ring a bell. Yes!! The HOMM series map editor has somethin like that too.



So then FF8 comes out, September 9th, 1999. What could fans expect? Every FF game is different, which, at the time, I thought was a stupid idea. But how could you keep a series going for 8 games with the same characters every time? (Not counting Zelda)

Well, we were met with MANY changes. There were no more summons, now they were Guardian Forces. Magic didn't come from stones equipped in your weapons and armor. It came from the GF's, who could learn abilities for your characters. Oddly enough, you develop your GF's more than your characters, who only have different weapons to use. That's it. Sound boring? Hell, no. You get magic from enemies, with a new Draw system. You use magic to increase your stats. Thus, you are in control of your characters more than in FF7, which I thought was impossible. What's better, the game is four discs long, one more than FF7. And just when you thought there couldn't be any more, they have a CARD game you can play. Play others, turn cards into valuable items. Get secret weapons. ENDLESS POSSIBILTIES. CONTROL. Their coming up more and more.

Ahhh! Final Fantasy 9! November 14th, 2000. It's a new millenia - we were prepared to be blown away with amazing ideas. Well, we weren't dissapointed. Now, skills were learned from weapons, head armor, body armor, foot armor, belts, and Add-ons. 6 pieces of equipment at once, and each one can hold up to four skills each. Do the math, and one character can be learning 24 different skills at one time! Though, it's not that easy. The game is mind-bendingly hard in some parts, offering many opportunies to win things besides battling. Once you get enough points in a skill for your character, you know it forever! Now your characters can switch armor for abilities they don't know, and weapons and armor have their own individual status protecting defenses and status-inflicting offenses, in addition to elemental defenses and offenses as well. And, even more surprising, they have a card game even deeper and more tactical then FF8's. Once again, four discs of heart-pounding RPG action.

Woohoo! Here comes Final Fantasy 10! The first FF game for the awesome Playstation 2! What would we see now? It's December 8th, 2001, the game hits the shelves. Well, everyone bought it. Corribus's mentioning of consumer credit is a MAJOR understatement. 3 highly successful and huge money-makers, fans were going nuts. I put the game in. I picked up the controller. I started a new game, and I threw up. Actually, I threw up twice. Once in the beginning, once near the mid-game. The first was because of the spectacular graphics. The second was because I was so frikin' bored. Ok, calm down, think positives. The game now allowed you to switch characters in battle. While it fit the story well, battles became hell-on-playstation because certain characters started out with the abilities to kill certain monsters. Only.....certain...monsters. You quickly find all of your characters getting killed because you din't get Auron, with his weapon's Piercing ability, out fast enough to kill the Armored Turtle. I'm not kidding. And guess what? No more World Map! Woopi. ):P Now, you tell the captain of your ship to go somewhere, and you're there. Wow, that was fun. Skills were intersting though. Turns out theres this big Sphere Grid. You use spheres to advance along the grid collecting abilitites along the way. Problems occur most often though. Many times you don't have enough of certain kinds of spheres to learn your abilities. What's the point of wasting your time getting every ability you find? Well, you don't have to. But fight a boss, and after losing the game 34 times, you're kicking yourself in the butt, going "Why didn't I get Fira when I had the chance?" because, unfortunately, you move along the Sphere Grid 1 space for every level your character gains. Missed Fira? Too bad. Only 17 levels wasted going back and getting it. Although, the producers planned ahead, and give you three spaces for every level when going backwards. Ok, 5 levels wasted, with 1 free space leftover. Think your safe? Sorry, there is still the trip back to the space you used to be in. And just when you thought you had it easy, there are locks on certain spheres you have to pass. Thought you could skip Blizzard, Fire, Thunder, Fira, Blizzara, Thundara, and every other spell and go straight to Meteor? 'Fraid not. Need a solution to this problem? Easy. Just have Tidus use a Teleport sphere and go straight to Ultima. In order to get ultimate weapons, you HAVE to do ALL the side quests. None of them are any too interesting either. Let's see....dodge lightning 200 times to get a Jupiter Sigil. That should take.....about 3 days, or 100 bucks if you get someone else to do it. I'm not saying that ultimate weapons can't be used without these, but all of them have the No AP ability to prevent any progress in the game. That's right. No Exp. Just AP. Is that a problem? Noooo, just a nuisance.



So, as you can probably guess, I haven't tried FF X-2, or FF 11, neither of which caught my attention particularly. I know, my comment of FFX was pretty negative, in addition, I think I outwrote all three of Corribus's articles. What does this have to do with HOMM? Well, look at FFX as H4. Square, just like 3D0, went to far with the "let's do something different" idea. Yeah H4 and FFX were different.(H4 was way better in the HOMM series than FFX in the FF series)Too different. Different too the point where fans like me are turned away. What do Square and 3D0 have in common? They both make video games, but Square didn't go out of business. They both had a wide audience.(Incidentally, though, they combined with Enix Co. shortly after making FFX, which could mean many things)

I probably will try FFXII. I hope it's good. But that brings up another issue. Sony made a deal with Microsoft that will ensure FF's survival, on the god **** XBOX. Yep. The XBOX. Why? It's not fair. But that can be compared to Ubisofts picking up from 3D0's wake. Nival is making a H3 - H5. I wonder if Microsoft will make a FF7 - FF12. And what's worse?! The music composer, Nobuo Uematsu, resigned from Square-Enix. No more good music! Us HOMM fans are lucky though. We've still got HOMM music. Like Corribus said, maybe H4 features will make it into H6. But for now, I'm not worrying. This subject has been tossed around so much, I'm surprised so many still feel this passionate about their feelings to comment here.

~CloudRiderX

[Corribus]

That's an interesting history of the latter games in the FF series. If I recall correctly, one of the reasons Square ditched Nintendo after FF6 and went to Sony was because Nintendo of America often forced Square to completely rewrite the games for the American audience (the American versions have toned down violence, language and sexuality). Anyway, that's kind of getting off topic - but it's interesting to me to read all that because I just bought every FF from 1-12 (except 11) and am playing FF7 right now for the first time. I'm not sure which one to play next, though.



Final Fantasy no doubt is one of the strongest video game brand names to be found, and that gives Square the flexibility to basically do whatever they want in each new installment without fear of damaging the brand name too much. Fans will buy the Final Fantasy games no matter what form they take, and as long as the games maintain a relatively decent standard, weaker games will be tolerated. Another example is the Zelda franchise. Both of these have seen some pretty radical changes between sequels, especially of late. (Although, the latest Zelda game met with a lot of criticism (much of it unwarranted) for doing something very different (cel-shaded graphics), and in the upcoming next Zelda game, they are going back to the old-style - so this reverting to older ideas isn't a phenomenon that's restricted to HoMM.)



Unfortunately, the strength of Might and Magic's brand name is not comparable to that of FF or Zelda, ESPECIALLY considering that the game has a new developer. That really restricts Ubisoft's options, as I've tried to explain in my article.



Imagine if you will if Square released FF13 that had some very radical new changes. Suppose at the time that Square was going through some hard times and the game was a little half-baked, and the game was met with sort of tepid reviews. Then Square goes out of business and some other company buys the FF brand name. Now, when that company makes FF14, would it be better for them to return to their roots, so to speak, and make a Final Fantasy that is reminiscent of the much-beloved earlier entries in the series, or do they go out on a limb again with something whacky and new that a lot of the established fans may not appreciate, especially coming from a new and unknown company?



C.

[CloudRiderX]

I hope I didn't plant a seed in your head about how FFX was. Please, try it! You might like it. I didn't though. If you need any help for FF's 7,8,9, or 10, send me a message in the mailbox. If it's a big problem, tell me, and i'll give you my e-mail so I can give a more in-depth message.

[dino_rpg]

First! I want to say that this is indeed a great article that catch my attention and I was unable to resist posting my thoughts (besides sorry for my not so well witten english, I hope you understand me well enough). I've been a member of this site from almost two years, though since the HOMMV Teaser site and forum came, I haven't posted here anymore (an apology, but I'm very exited about HV so I expend my free time reading about it), but I admire and respect your work and opinion



Now onto topic:

I'm a H4 fan (one of those so weirds and few gamers which actually liked), but I was also a H3 fan by the time the game releases.

I also agreed about the point of view of the developers, actually, I'm a software developer so I know about that, and in my case, every time a client expects something about our product, we evalute that feature and actually we make it work with the concept of our product, because, after all, "the Client is always right", and if our product lack those so liked features, the client just go with the product from other companies, but of course, there's some cases in which those features simple can't work with our product, in this situations there's nothing we could do but to try and sell the good features we've and the one that other companies lack



After saying the previous words, I think my point is somehow clear when I see that H5 seems like a H3-clone in 3D, because it lacks so far lots of the features from H4



You say a sequel should retain the core gameplay from the original game, and I agreed, but also the sequel should make improvements in order to keep selling and attracting new players. I don't mean revolutionary changes, but adding new features (not only more towns, more heroes, more maps, artifacts and the like), skills are a good starting point, new skill should make the game interesting, and in some cases it will change or add some features, like by explample, a simultaneous retaliation skill for H3, it will prevent the first strike everytime, changing a core gameplay, but as a new feature without really changing the core gameplay from its root. Now, H4 introduced this skill for every creature, but it still allows the First strike ability in order to maintain somehow the core gameplay from previous games, if a player wants its H3 retaliation system, they could still have it using the first strike skill, but of course, as it was a change for every creature, the original fans didn't like it, but I think they could've liked a simultaneous retaliation skill instead



As I try to prove, a sequel should add improvements even if that means a whole gameplay change, but it still should to preserve somehow the original gameplay in order to well-used players to feel comfortable, but give some bonus for those who need "more" and are bored of the same thing. Another good example, Heroes Chronicles, I never bought any of them, because basicly, were just new campaigns for H3, on the other hand, Armaggedon's blade add new campaigns but also new creatures, that's somehow an improvement (very little, but an improvement anyway) so it's worth buying it



Now, arguing some of your main points:

Fact #1: H4 was not universally liked

Of course, it is easily explained because hard-core users were playing from the original H1 game and suddenly they were given H4 which totally messed up whatever they know about the game, it couldn't be more obvious

I've a question... image you never heard of H1 to H3, that H4 was the first game ever released in the HOMM franchise and you happend to play it... do the game really was that bad in this situation? do the simultaneous retaliation or the multiple heroes on battle that "umbalancing" that you couldn't live with it? do the daily creature growth of the roaming without hero creatures something that ruins any gameplay?... I don't think so. If this were the case, suddenly having a first strike for all creatures without the possibility to retaliation simultaneos again and only one hero which I'm unable to attack in order to weaken the enemy army as we all will've with H5 really should ruin the game play from H4... don't you think so?

As I try to explain, we H4 fans feel somehow forgotten because most of what we like didn't reach H5. But I understand that the reallity is that core gameplay comes from H1 to H3, so H5 should please the core players and add just a little in order to attract some people, but they can't risk a failure introducing the features from H4, that's why you'll hearme say "I just wait and see how H5 do when it releases" and not saying "I'm pre-ordering the game blindly just because it's another HOMM game".. things doesn't work like that either... the developers couldn't please every player in the worlds (the do not give charity, and it's a business)... but players could not buy games they don't like just for the fact it is based on a license the same players liked years ago, the game have a high price and players should decide where to expend their time and money (we don't give charity to the developers either)



Fact #2: H3 was a stable, well-liked evolution of H2.

Of course, it is a sequel, and an evlution, in H3 were added some features, they do not override the existing ones (like Hero specialities, and more towns and creatures). I don't know a lot about H1 and H2 because actually I never play them, but I readed H3 adds upgrades for every creatures instead multiples upgrades for some creatures that H2 have, so this and other things H3 introduces makes some H2 fans mad just like H4 did the same with H3. The point is... a sequel should add to the game, not take things off it. Even if it adds changes to the core gameplay, the sequel should still allow somehow to use the previous engine. It is easiert to build over an existing system and add things than developt a new game (as you pointed with that Ultima 7 example), by adding lots of options to adjust the gameplay as the player likes.



Fact #3: H5 has a new developer, Ubisoft.

This is a valid reason to remake a game, and that's why I'm still giving a chance to H5 to be more like H3, but if it really is a sequel, you just can't forget about every previous game (not even H4), you still somehow should try and put something from every prequel, and I'm hoping H6 or even H5 expansions should do this. There's probably lots of ways you could make the whole H4 system work but still offer the same system as in H3 if the player wants it... a little example, many players like the hero as a commander and giving bonuses to the creatures, so you could still allow your hero to enter the battle (taking the bonuses away from your creatures) so you could still have both H3 and H4 systems working together, at the same time you could add some features in order for a hero to attack the other hero trying to kill him to make the whole enemy army weaker, or he could choose to expend it's turn casting a spell to help their own creatures, this way you still have the same H3 core system but now you've a bonus feature which you should decide to either use or ignore it



I hope this comments aren't as annoying as it appears. They just try to give you an idea of a H4 fan regarding this new HOMM game

[Steven Aus]

Good job Corribus! In regards to the restaurant example I think in Australia we often would have gone away and not gone back. But in the case of H5 there was a real chance that if the community waited for the final product it might have been decidely untasty (as in a cake that was not cooked properly and for long enough). This way we will know whether the game can really stand on its merits.



And while there are many, many restaurants in a city there are not an infinite number of fantasy turn-based strategy wargames so I think more preventative action was called for.
Edited on Wed, Feb 08 2006, 02:56 by Steven Aus

[Corribus]

@Stephen Aus:
True there are not many turn-based strategy war games out there. But I think that if this was "just some other game", you wouldn't see people fighting for it as tenaciously as they have been for Heroes. Thanks for reading, btw.

[Steven Aus]

Steven Aus please, and it was a good read. =) (I'm not new, just with this moniker. ;-) I do hope that the Heroes 5 final product is successful. I am barracking for it, but if doesn't work I'll still be playing WoG which is another excellent production as you know, worked on for a very long period and with lots of great features and a lot of love by its makers. Lets hope that Heroes and WoG stay around for a really long time. =)

[Corribus]

Sorry Steven for the misspell. I have often wondered what the future of WoG is once H5 is finally released.

[Steven Aus]

I think that because H5 is likely to be quite a different feel from H3 (even though it is based on H3) there will still be people playing H3 and WoG. And because it is possible that H3: WoG could be modded almost completely by the end of 2006, I think it will still keep its place. Remember that you can create much more complex and interesting maps and campaigns in WoG compared to a commercial release of Heroes, even I think, H5. In the Wake of Gods (or Heroes3-5) has been added to and expanded for at least five years, I don't think it will be chucked away. =)
Edited on Thu, Feb 09 2006, 20:23 by Steven Aus

[Silverblade]

Though I agree on many points with the author's views I must bring up a couple of points.



1. HOMM III essentially improved every single aspect of HOMM II. There are few examples of sequels which justified their existence as much as it did. Every single thing that I found myself wishing I could see when playing HOMM II and every reasonable suggestion fans made in the forums was added in III. For me and many other fans of the series it was certainly the apex of Heroes. Do not dismiss evolution as stagnation. It is definitely not the same thing,



2. When asked about HOMM IV by CGW mag JVC himself said:"I worked on the initial design for Heroes IV, then when things started to go awry (too many cooks in the kitchen), I had to help finish the game and get it into a shippable state. To the credit of the team involved, I think we were able to create a fun game, even though it had many flaws that I was very unhappy with." In other words, JVC meant to change some things, but not in the way HOMMIV did in the end.



3. Change, when hastily brought about or when it is done for its own sake is rarely good. Take King's Quest VIII for instance. It attempted to "modernize" the series and in the end it ended up not being KQ at all.



4. By the time HOMM IV was published I think there was very little 3DO could to to reverse its course: No matter how good the expansions could have been the boat would have still sunk. Why? Because HOMM IV could have been improved somewhat but not MM IX. 3DO was in debt because of poor sports titles and the totally milked Army Men series and with one fell sweep managed to totally wreck their single profitable franchise. A half-baked HOMM and a completely horrible MM game were too much for a company struggling to stay afloat.