Like Tears in Rain

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hellegennes
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Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby hellegennes » 12 Jul 2011, 18:33

Tell that to old Dr. Who fans.



Ok, there are exceptions like Blizzard stuff, but these are not only rare but also extreme. There are very few executives which would allow a team to develop a game for a decade.



Btw, Unreal Tournament started in '99 and the last game was out in '07. This is hardly a decade. Expansion packs do not count (they're not new games). Even if you choose Unreal to be the start, despite being a different title, it's still less than a decade between the first and last instalments.

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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby ThunderTitan » 12 Jul 2011, 19:32

hellegennes wrote:>>Tell that to old Dr. Who fans.<<
That's more of a case of unpleasable fanbase... a Kirk vs. Picard, but with over 10 players to choose from... (man, the 1st ever Dalek episode was better then ST ToS even).
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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby GreatEmerald » 12 Jul 2011, 20:32

hellegennes wrote:Btw, Unreal Tournament started in '99 and the last game was out in '07. This is hardly a decade. Expansion packs do not count (they're not new games). Even if you choose Unreal to be the start, despite being a different title, it's still less than a decade between the first and last instalments.
Unreal Tournament 3 Black came out in 2009. So that's a decade either way.

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Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby hellegennes » 12 Jul 2011, 20:43

@TT:

No, no, no and no. It's definitely: They Changed It, Now It Sucks. That's what most old fans believe, anyways. When I say old, I mean oooold.
Edited on Tue, Jul 12 2011, 16:47 by hellegennes

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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby ThunderTitan » 12 Jul 2011, 21:48

hellegennes wrote:>>No, no, no and no. It's definitely: They Changed It, Now It Sucks.<<
That's one of the cornerstones of the unpleasable fanbase... and once it's so old there are like at least 10 generations of that one trope already... so mine covers it better.

Also, i love the Zelda quote (at the bottom): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Q ... bleFanbase
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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby Dalai » 13 Jul 2011, 08:54

hellegennes wrote:@TT:

No, no, no and no. It's definitely: They Changed It, Now It Sucks. That's what most old fans believe, anyways. When I say old, I mean oooold.
Edited on Tue, Jul 12 2011, 16:47 by hellegennes
That's just not true. Old successful games have their flaws and their merits. Developer of the new title has AT LEAST to understand, which is which. Very easy - add "why" whenever possible: "WHY They Changed It?" "WHY It Sucks Now?"

For example, caravans are very easy to improve. But... oops. Next time. Maybe. Or maybe not.

Another example - Architect skill. I can prove as easy as 2*2=4 that the skill is poor-minded, lacking imagination, adding to micromanagement and subtracting from enjoyable gameplay.

These are small and simple things. Converting towns is a bigger one. Developers (game designers, to be precise) have to understand how it is connected with the concept of "single army vs. multiple armies". Which in turn is connected to map sizes and adventure map spell selection. And caravans too, btw. But do they? Judging from beta - I strongly doubt this.

It's very easy to see once you understand, WHY EXACTLY some thing were done the way they were done. By someone who has the most extensive experience. But this developer, just exactly as the previous one, prefers to ignore it completely and start collecting all the known terrible blunders from scratch. With this approach - yes, it will definitely suck. Sorry, you cant have less experience, be unwilling to learn from giants and create a better product at the same time.
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Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby hellegennes » 13 Jul 2011, 17:55

That's just your opinion. You love Heroes 4, as far as I remember while the majority of the fanbase had, at best, mixed feelings (AI aside). You can't mathematically prove that A works and B doesn't. When something doesn't work, in science, you fix everything and change one thing at a time. In games you can't produce 1 million different versions to improve upon technicalities. Neither most of these things are quantifiable. If the end product is successful, you try and keep the good stuff. But what is good and what is not is rarely a simple matter. Some things seem insignificant and no one points them out but they turn out to be instrumental. For example, I liked H5 but felt it wasn't enjoyable enough because town building was given too much attention, which was one of the things they thought they had to focus on. True, town building was a successful element of previous games but it turned out it didn't need to have the focus because now it made the game slow. H4 focused on heroes and that had a controversial response. You can never tell where to focus and how much improvement fits in a concept until you implement it.

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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby GreatEmerald » 13 Jul 2011, 18:12

hellegennes wrote:In games you can't produce 1 million different versions to improve upon technicalities.
Actually, you can, it's called configuration. But it will likely not work online or be forced to accept the server rules.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 13 Jul 2011, 18:50

Guys, that post was about Doctor Who... that's why he said "oooold" (the show first aired in 1962).
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Unread postby hellegennes » 13 Jul 2011, 23:23

@TT:



It's better that they don't learn what tvtropes is. Because a) TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life and b) TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Vocabulary (not to mention you are likely to be fired or quit school -if underage).

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Unread postby jeff » 13 Jul 2011, 23:36

hellegennes wrote:That's just your opinion.
We all have them.
hellegennes wrote: You love Heroes 4, as far as I remember while the majority of the fanbase had, at best, mixed feelings (AI aside).
Perhaps, but it wasn't much of a majority. There are many (not necessarily a majority) of us that still prefer it to H-V. If H-VI is not much better then I'll still prefer H-IV to H-VI. But again so, if UBI makes the decision that from a marketing view they are on the right track and it makes them money then they made the right economic decision. I am an old fan (both meanings of old), and I have come to realize UBI and its decisions have moved in a direction that many here prefer, and that is fair enough. It has also made me realize my time participating in the Heroes community is rapidly coming to an end as their direction is not a path I chose to travel. I just hope that the series continues and people will enjoy playing it.
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Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby hellegennes » 14 Jul 2011, 01:52

Jeff,



Majority can not really be measured by personal accounts. But you can certainly see it reflected in reviews and by averaging them you have what you are looking for. Also sales say a lot about the opinion of the majority.



Part of the reason you dislike where the series is headed -hence the references to other media- is hidden inside the word you used: "Old". As we grow older, we inevitably get the feeling that everything was better before. Not because we lose our grip to reality or the ability to critically judge. It's just something you can't help. It's a mind trick. Similarly, new fans that are now, say, 15 years old will probably say the same things in like 15 years time, when Heroes XII will be out.



Of course, there will still be other reasons not to like a future title, but perception is seriously damaged in terms of objectiveness. Only someone who has never played both titles before can objectively be the judge.

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 14 Jul 2011, 07:07

Except when TVTropes Will Enhance Your Life.

You can't say that there aren't reasons for not liking the recent titles. There are a plenty. But of course that doesn't mean that those who do like them are wrong. It's basically a subject of taste.

Also, wow, how did we get that far off topic?

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Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby hellegennes » 14 Jul 2011, 13:08

Off-topicness is directly proportional to the square of the number of posts and inversely proportional of the original topic's length.

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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby Dalai » 14 Jul 2011, 13:50

hellegennes wrote:That's just your opinion.
That's what you want it to be to be able to dismiss it freely.

When I say "Simultaneous retaliations are better than consecutive ones" - that's opinion. When I say that "This goal can be achieved in 2 clicks total and Ubihole makes it in 5 clicks every week + 2 minutes of dull watching of some repetitive activities on the screen" - that's a fact. When I say "It's not some sacred knowledge only I possess, it has been done in this very same series. If Ubihole knows about it and still ignores it - they are working against success of the product which is not smart at all. If they don't know about it - they are lazy and arrogant". And that too would be a fact.
You love Heroes 4, as far as I remember while the majority of the fanbase had, at best, mixed feelings (AI aside).
It's not about Heroes 4. It's about not understanding why something was or wasn't done. When you do this - you are doomed to make same mistakes over and over. And you're doomed to never make the next step (aside from changing DirectX number in prerequisites).
You can't mathematically prove that A works and B doesn't.
Yes, I can. 2 clicks are better than 5. Done.

Many viable strategies are better than few. Ubihole decisions are cutting out whole sets of strategies. This is very poor-minded. And bad for game which used to be strategy long ago. Done.

Want to know why? We can discuss any major changes. I'm sure you like the one I mentioned above - town transforming to your alignment. Do you comprehend the consequences? And more importantly - do developers? How can anyone in his sound mind think, that NWC did not think about it? And if they did - WHY did they leave this "killer feature" out? There is a number of good reasons for that, I can assure you. Too bad Ubihole does not even try to think about them.
When something doesn't work, in science, you fix everything and change one thing at a time. In games you can't produce 1 million different versions to improve upon technicalities. Neither most of these things are quantifiable.
That's why we are not talking about all the million stuff. There is a lot of quantifiable stuff.
If the end product is successful, you try and keep the good stuff. But what is good and what is not is rarely a simple matter. Some things seem insignificant and no one points them out but they turn out to be instrumental
And just for the reasons you provided above it is impossible to say which features exactly are good. It may seem that, for example, "5 stacks in the army" are great. But it can be too shallow - really great are "5 stacks in army AND 7 stacks in town". "9 stacks in town" could make "5 stacks in the army" intolerable. Some features out of context are plain stupid. "Hero inflicting direct damage to enemy stacks on battlefield" is NOT great. Great is "hero inflicting direct damage to enemy stacks AND being vulnerable to direct attacks".
For example, I liked H5 but felt it wasn't enjoyable enough because town building was given too much attention, which was one of the things they thought they had to focus on. True, town building was a successful element of previous games but it turned out it didn't need to have the focus because now it made the game slow. H4 focused on heroes and that had a controversial response. You can never tell where to focus and how much improvement fits in a concept until you implement it.
Yes, I can. Concrete example from H5 - the idea of hero trail which can be spotted by opponent and provide scouting information. Right after it was announced I criticized it sharply. Of course, Ubival knew better. They spend months and finally they did implement it in their development build. And it did suck exactly as I described an hour after announcement.

I'm not even trying to talk about some strategic insights, I usually keep this kind of stuff to myself. I'm not talking about AI which I personally would start working on from DAY ONE if I were responsible for a game. What I'm talking about is avoiding obviously shallow and stupid decisions. It's cheaper to assume that your predecessors were not stupid and learn from them than do all the obvious blunders over and over and insist on millions fans suffer.
Also sales say a lot about the opinion of the majority.
A lot. But not everything. About the opinion of the majority at the exact moment of buying the game.

Dungeon Keeper and Neverhood would lose badly to any modern 3-rd rate game if you look at sales alone. I wish we could measure average (mean, maximum) time spent playing the game, for example. Some people play H3 for more than 10 years. Same about Starcraft.
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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby ThunderTitan » 14 Jul 2011, 15:09

hellegennes wrote:>>@TT:
It's better that they don't learn what tvtropes is. Because a) TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life and b) TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Vocabulary (not to mention you are likely to be fired or quit school -if underage).<<
If i'm going down i'm taking them all with me...

Dalai wrote: Yes, I can. 2 clicks are better than 5. Done.
Tell that to SC players...
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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby jeff » 14 Jul 2011, 17:03

hellegennes wrote:hence the references to other media- is hidden inside the word you used: "Old". As we grow older, we inevitably get the feeling that everything was better before.
That doesn't mean we are wrong, in many cases the old is better. What is equally true is the many of the younger gamers don't what the mental challenge that the older gamers preferred. They would rather run and gun.
hellegennes wrote:Off-topicness is directly proportional to the square of the number of posts and inversely proportional of the original topic's length.
Sounds like a good mathematical theorem for all forums. :D
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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby ThunderTitan » 14 Jul 2011, 18:48

jeff wrote: What is equally true is the many of the younger gamers don't what the mental challenge that the older gamers preferred. They would rather run and gun.
WRONG!!!!

What has really changed is that more and more people have started gaming, so the ones that prefer thinking games are a smaller % now... gaming has just gone mainstream.
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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby Dalai » 14 Jul 2011, 19:03

Dalai wrote:Tell that to SC players...
Actually, as far as I can see, same things in SC2 require some less action than in SC1. You save clicks on unlimited groups, shortcuts for units in heterogeneous groups, to name a few off the top of my head.
What has really changed is that more and more people have started gaming, so the ones that prefer thinking games are a smaller % now... gaming has just gone mainstream.
I agree. That's why sales figures are not as representative as some people claim them to be. But it does not mean that "good game design" today is any different than it was yesterday. It just means that the audience is more forgiving.
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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Unread postby GreatEmerald » 14 Jul 2011, 19:21

jeff wrote:That doesn't mean we are wrong, in many cases the old is better. What is equally true is the many of the younger gamers don't what the mental challenge that the older gamers preferred. They would rather run and gun.
While that might be true, there is always a reason for change. This issue is very much similar tot he literature/movies situation I wrote about on my website. So I''l rephrase what I wrote there: the fact that they are popular means that people are changing. They probably have too much work as it is and simply prefer light entertainment that doesn't tax them any more. While you might want to believe that people are just getting dumber, the history of mankind suggests otherwise.


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