Like Tears in Rain

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 17 2011, 12:44

But that has nothing to do with what the fans thought of Forge...
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Postby hellegennes » Jul 17 2011, 12:58

I am not a forge hater either and I love the MM storyline. This isn't a personal view. NWC announced that they would cancel the forge in order to match the views of the fanbase.

No one would take seriously one death threat from a letter. No company would scrap so much work because of a letter. 3DO for one wouldn't have let NWC throw away so much money because of a single death threat. They allowed it because they knew this meant that the fanbase was unhappy, hence bad publicity, discontented fans, lower sales. This is statistics we are talking about. 200 letters is large enough a number. They scrapped the storyline, all the campaigns, the work on the forge, etc.

And, the reason, Fulton gave was not the death threat but "Reason One: As much as I thought the actions of many fans showed a lack of vision and an inherent distrust for a company who have given them hundreds of hours of quality gameplay, I still didn't want to fight our fans. Reason Two: There wasn't enough pro-Forge activity"

This is crystal clear.
Edited on Sun, Jul 17 2011, 08:59 by hellegennes

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Postby GreatEmerald » Jul 17 2011, 13:08

Oh wow, did we just do a 360 and got back on topic? 8|

I see XEL's point here. Think about internet psychology - how many people complain? How many people defend game ideas? The percent of the former always outweighs the latter. Complaining is pure easier than saying that everything is OK. So it's natural that they got only negative mail. There is little point in sending "The Forge concept is great, carry on" mail, but there is point in sending "The Forge concept is bad, stop doing that". The former won't change much because that was where they were heading either way, and the latter could (and ultimately did) change things.

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Postby XEL II » Jul 17 2011, 13:11

But that has nothing to do with what the fans thought of Forge...

"Fans" (most of them) who voiced against Forge thought its concept was alien to the series.

Yeah, I forgot about that Fulton's answer. Still, dumb ignorance of those "fans" doesn't mean that Forge and sci-fi is something wrong in MM and HoMM. Those people's lack of knowledge on the game world's lore is their problem, not the game world's.
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Postby hellegennes » Jul 17 2011, 19:45

@XELL:

So, what? You can't change the fans, you can only change the game. It's for them you are making it in the first place.

@GreatEmerald:

Surely people ***** about easily on the Internet, but only really displeased people would bother to communicate directly with the creators to persuade them down any specific path. These percentages are statistically measured, ie it's known what percentage of the pleased fans will personally express their gratitude and what is the respective percentage for the displeased fans. Let's say these are 0.1 and 10 percent, respectively. If you get 10 positive and 200 negative letters, that means you have 100 pleased and 2000 displeased fans. Of course, the percentages are fictional but I believe what I am trying to say is clear.

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Postby hatsforclowns » Jul 17 2011, 20:25

As graphical complexity and graphical development has increased exponentially, actual gameplay, story, content, replay value, all the good stuff, has decreased exponentially.

Face it, we live in an era of graphiXXX.

Occasionally you get a good game, and you can only hope that they don't ruin it. If it's indie, commercial or free/mod, you can only hope they aren't swallow whole by the industry.

It's a good thing there is nothing stopping me from playing all the good old games. Better yet, though the gaming industry has a chokehold on the gaming art, a lot of gamers -- young and old -- are getting tired of the ****. Creating their own games, realising the own dreams, materialising their passion.

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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Postby GreatEmerald » Jul 17 2011, 21:21

hellegennes wrote:Let's say these are 0.1 and 10 percent, respectively. If you get 10 positive and 200 negative letters, that means you have 100 pleased and 2000 displeased fans.


Wouldn't that be 10000 pleased and 2000 displeased?

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Postby hellegennes » Jul 17 2011, 21:54

@GreatEmerald:
Yes, I accidentally did that. I initially wrote 1% and 1 positive letter, then changed it to these numbers. I've been meaning to write 0.1%, 1 positive letter and 1000 fans but I added the 0 to the wrong figure. Sorry.

@hatsforclowns:
That's exactly what I've been hearing for the past 15 years.
Edited on Sun, Jul 17 2011, 17:55 by hellegennes

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Postby hatsforclowns » Jul 17 2011, 21:59

10,000 pleased and 2,000 displeased makes more sense.

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Postby Corlagon » Jul 17 2011, 22:11

Maybe I should have added a clause to the article saying "please don't quarrel about the Forge, we've all heard it all before" :P

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Postby Tale » Jul 17 2011, 22:30

XEL II said: "The fanbase isn't just some collective consciousness, it consists of individuals, each with their own opinion. There is no way in the world to know for sure what exactly all the 750000 or the majority of them thought about the Forge."

XEL II said: "Still, dumb ignorance of those "fans" doesn't mean that Forge and sci-fi is something wrong in MM and HoMM. Those people's lack of knowledge on the game world's lore is their problem, not the game world's."

XEL II said: "And all you Forge-haters prefer to see only negative views on the Forge, as if there were no one who actually liked the idea....My main point is not about that, but that those people's ignorant defiance of Forge doesn't make this concept anything wrong to the series. NWC said this outright even after the cancellation."

XEL II said: "And, of course, even considering that someone didn't like Forge, that doesn't make it anything wrong in the game world, that they didm't like it is those idiots' problem, their ignorance doesn't define Might and Magic world."

So, first you say that the community isn't one giant collection of consciousness. Everyone has their own individual opinions and there's no way to be certain of what every single fan believed about the Forge. I agree.

Then you say that ALL Forge-haters are ignorant idiots who only want to see the negative views of the Forge and they don't define the Might and Magic world. Oh, and they're not actually fans of the series because of it. Hypocritical, aren't we?

I like all the MM games I've played and I dislike the Forge and the Forge concept. As I said in that previous thread, I fully agree that it COULD have been good, but they massively overdid it and as a result I think it had no place in the game. Incidentally, I feel the same way with it in the MM world, like in MM 6 where you play what seems like a purely fantasy game for 80% of it, only to go into a giant computer chamber and be given laser guns that are a million times better than any weapon you have. These feelings are not stated as outright defiance for the concept. They're stated as me saying, even though I don't like it, the Forge could work and the science-fiction could fit, BUT they need to transition better to not be as jarring, out of place, and overpowered as they were.

Does this make me an ignorant idiot who is somehow less of a fan than you are? I don't think so, no more than it makes you an ignorant idiot who is somehow less of a fan than disagreeing with me. So hey, could we please not call each other idiots and ignorant on these boards? Thanks.
Edited on Sun, Jul 17 2011, 18:46 by Tale

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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Postby GreatEmerald » Jul 18 2011, 7:33

But you never even saw anything but a few concept drawings! How can you say it would have had a jarring transition? Plus, if you say that blasters are overpowered, you're clearly doing something wrong. They were always worse than artifact/relic bows and such, and that's from all the way back to MM1.

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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Postby Dalai » Jul 18 2011, 9:50

hellegennes wrote:I didn't say you've said that.

Then explain your quote: "Dalai, I fail to see how is it possible to think that there is an unquestionable, standard and objective way to create a game."

hellegennes wrote:You implied smart AI, etc, and I am telling you it was nothing but a stupid, cheating routine and that you even compare that to modern games makes you 100% subjective.

Which of those games you did play to say that?

hellegennes wrote:Your idea of the game is not universal, try and accept this. It's irritating that you are passing your views are objective.

I'm not discussing any of this. It seems you're talking to someone else.

For you not to try so hard to invent my views, I gave you the simple, direct and concrete example: "Really, can you see any real difference between Architect in H6 and Governor in H4? Any added complexity and depth? If you can - please enlighten me. If you can't - compare the implementation." But for some reasons you prefer to ignore it.

Corlagon wrote:And I'd pay money without hesitation to let you, and we'd see if you could've made a bigger difference in the same position.

From what you say, you think I want to judge those prime-fans? No, that is not my intent. I can guess you are one of them, and you managed to achieve less than you wished. If true, you are also under NDA and I'm not going to ask you any sensitive information. Although I wonder what is the overall feeling after taking part in this "advisory process" - is it pride? disappointment? disgust?

In this process only Ubihole had freedom and only they are accountable for everything. Blaming fans, testers, translators, etc. is just counterproductive and stupid. I hope we're on the same page here.

What is interesting for me is what ideas were discussed, how Ubihole reacted, how they moderated the discussion (where they drove it). How deep ideas were considered, how they were compared and selected for implementation. I very much want to know if there was some initial frame with a limited set of the most important decisions (examples: heroes walk only with creatures, creatures grow weekly, battle has classical rounds, no creature crosses battlefield in more than 3 turns, no magic allows sprite-zombi type of exploit, AI can use everything that is available to human player, etc), which defined decisions on different lesser issues. I wonder if this frame was bended to accept some promising features, etc.

As far as I can see there was either no frame or a frame with too little important decisions and limitations. Because right now decisions seem to be contradicting each other and greatly limiting strategic part of the game.

hellegennes wrote:You cannot just listen to all opinions.

Of course you can! Listening and implementing are two different things.

hellegennes wrote:You cannot even quantify which decisions are going to have a negative or positive impact, even if it is the wish of the majority.

Of course you can! Simple example - NWC was asked about adding another faction into H4 A LOT. But he faction structure is one of the key elements of game's design. So it was never implemented, regardless of the number of requests.

If you know what you do and why - this is fairly simple. But you have to know WHY.

For example, I'll never stop criticizing invincible heroes inflicting direct damage in H5 and H6. Because the only answer to WHY question is "so that might hero doesn't just idly watch a battle, while magic hero actively participates in it." It is a "solution" to bad design - design should be changed, not just covered with "solution" like that. H6 has made a step forward, but it remains to be seen if it's in right direction.
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Postby hellegennes » Jul 18 2011, 14:15

These are still your views; you haven't proved that it's what the majority feels. And please try not to confuse yourself about who said what. You seem to be answering to Jeff's words as if it were me that have said them.

And if you feel so strongly about objectiveness, I should ask you why was Equilibris not embraced that much by fans as was Wake of Gods. One of two things is happening here: either there is a standard and objective way in creating a game/mod/whatever and you are not good at it, hence that deprives you of the right to be so extremely critical or there is not a standard way to produce something good, and good is a subjective thing in the quality of art. Choose what you like.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 18 2011, 18:09

XEL II wrote:
But that has nothing to do with what the fans thought of Forge...

"Fans" (most of them) who voiced against Forge thought its concept was alien to the series.

Yeah, I forgot about that Fulton's answer. Still, dumb ignorance of those "fans" doesn't mean that Forge and sci-fi is something wrong in MM and HoMM. Those people's lack of knowledge on the game world's lore is their problem, not the game world's.


And as it's their money the devs want it's also the devs problem... that's what i was saying.


And lets face it, the people who defend Forge are in a minority, and those that don't care weren't going to be lost sales either way...
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Postby XEL II » Jul 18 2011, 18:17

Anyway, the lore doesn't change if some people don't know it. Migth and Magic remained a sci-fi (science fantasy by sub-genre) universe regardless of the opinion of people who were against Forge.
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Postby hellegennes » Jul 18 2011, 18:34

What do you mean "remained"? When was Heroes a sci-fi series? Sure, MM was, but Heroes was not literally part of the series until they decided to link the two series.

So, why did Heroes had "of Might and Magic" and why did they interlink the two franchises? Well, sales! By putting the "of Might and Magic", NWC ensured that there would be added publicity and they could draw from their already established fanbase, much more than if they used "King's Bounty 2", which is what Heroes essentially was. After the extreme success the first two games in the series had, and after so many years without a sequel to their MM franchise, they thought it would be a good idea to interlink the plot between the two series, so this time MM6 would draw from the fanbase of Heroes. I am one of these people actually, because the first time I heard about MM was the ad-in-my-face right in there, in Heroes' II Main Menu. After MM6, I played all the previous ones as well.

So, until the forge, there wasn't anything in the Heroes universe to imply a sci-fi background, other than that it's counterpart RPG series was one. Again, Heroes is not a spin-off, it's a sequel to King's Bounty. Hence it never had a scifi background to say "remained".

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 18 2011, 18:47

XEL II wrote:Anyway, the lore doesn't change if some people don't know it. Migth and Magic remained a sci-fi (science fantasy by sub-genre) universe regardless of the opinion of people who were against Forge.


Frankly i think a new genre is needed for science is magic type settings, as SF is actually meant to be based on actual physical possibilities.
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Postby hatsforclowns » Jul 18 2011, 19:41

I use witchpunk for my own style of fantasy. Magic is purely scientific and just another form of technology, like any other, as opposed to an arbitrary or supernatural concept.

Similar to steampunk, but instead of steam it is magic that is the technology that the world has developed around. It is primarily fantasy, but it also has heavy elements of science fiction similar to Might & Magic. So, a fictional fantasy setting, where magic and fantasy elements are scientific, and with science fiction elements.

I don't know what to call the MM style, though: a fictional setting, where magic and fantasy elements are supernatural, and with science fiction elements.

Nor the other way around, science fiction with elements of fantasy.

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Re: Like Tears in Rain

Postby Corlagon » Jul 18 2011, 19:49

hellegennes wrote:So, until the forge, there wasn't anything in the Heroes universe to imply a sci-fi background, other than that it's counterpart RPG series was one. Again, Heroes is not a spin-off, it's a sequel to King's Bounty. Hence it never had a scifi background to say "remained".


Well, Corak was mentioned in King's Bounty, so in theory it had the sci-fi too.


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