On Iron Lore and PC Gaming

[Moragauth]

Firms need to stop relying on IP laws and develop their own means of protecting their products from piracy. It's ridiculous to rely on silly government protections, which suck like pretty much everything else government does. So I agree with Arturchix.



Piracy may not be theft in the way that theft of physical goods is (see Stephan Kinsella on this), but I still cannot stand this mentality of 'oh the price is too high, so that justifies me just downloading it' WTF? As if you have some entitlement to games... get real.

[PhoenixReborn]

I guess I'm displaying elephantine ignorance here but I find Infiltrator's post really confusing...you pay a small sum to buy a 'pirated' version? Isn't the point of pirating so you don't have to pay? Something to do with online keys I guess but it still doesn't make much sense...

[Corribus]

Piracy may not be theft in the way that theft of physical goods is (see Stephan Kinsella on this), but I still cannot stand this mentality of 'oh the price is too high, so that justifies me just downloading it' WTF? As if you have some entitlement to games... get real.

It's a very dumb bit of logic. Try it on for size with conventional physical items to see how silly it is:

"Oh, I'm sorry, your honor, but a Lexus costs at least a fifth of my yearly pay, so that's why I stole it. It's really that simple."

"Oh, I'm sorry, your honor, but how many people do you know that would actually spend half their salary on a Rolex? Maybe now you can understand why I stole one."

[Infiltrator]

It's a very dumb bit of logic. Try it on for size with conventional physical items to see how silly it is:

"Oh, I'm sorry, your honor, but a Lexus costs at least a fifth of my yearly pay, so that's why I stole it. It's really that simple."

"Oh, I'm sorry, your honor, but how many people do you know that would actually spend half their salary on a Rolex? Maybe now you can understand why I stole one."

Heh you know whats even dumber? Comparing a fictive material that can be easily copied to physical items that you cannot.

If you could "steal" a Lexus by copying it to a blank car template that you bought cheap then we'd see hell of a lot of Jaguars, Ferraris and Lamborghinis around, though not Lexuses (or Lexi, idk) because tbh that's a crap firm compared to the aforementioned ones.

[Muszka]

Piracy... that's related with violence I think.

So indeed excuses are bad for stealing a game/program which you could buy for 50€ or whatever. It is so if you have have 1000€/month or around so, but in some countries that's a dream, I know people who work hard as they can and they have some-like 150€/month or less.

Now I would like to buy the games I play and download games for what I'm unsure, but simply I don't have chance for it. It's not that I don't respect the publishers and developers, but with the taxes imposed by my government and the chaotic law situation it's hard to 'buy' even a program like Windows not to talk about games.

To answer Angelspit's question, ''What I don't understand is how the people who would have to pay half their salary for a game can afford a decent gaming computer (Titant Quest for instance won't run on an old Pentium III after all).

I'm really surprised (and a bit disgusted) by the numbers provided by Fitch.". It's easy, if a guy wants to buy a new PC he must plan it at least 4-6 months before, for to put away some money, eat less or something else, or he can buy (like Infiltrator said) paying in rates, for 3-5 years. Now a a game can easily be stolen while a PC is much harder. And the police is just rarely after software piracy.
To top on everything, in my country piracy is like 99,9%, here only those who are maniacs and rich buy softwares, (and bigger companies). Not only you must be 'stupidly good', but whenever you want to buy a game you become the center of some jokes. From all the people I know, only one was buying games and software, and his father was rich enough for him to do so. So 'disgusted' is a bit to much, because piracy is bad and evil and disgusting if you have money but, after reading 'Les Miserables' all agree, that stealing can be understood sometimes.

Now as i stated I would like to buy software, and not to steal it, to have chance to update without fear of broking the program, and loosing date, but simply can't and I'm way not alone in this. Though here in my country everyone steals, (and I'm not talking about piracy of the software industry, but anything else, ) I'm against it, but I could not play games, not use PC or even live without stealing. The first program ever bought was Heroes Complete recently, my Windows is pirated, my games are pirated, all my programs are pirated/cracked/used with false serials, even the net I use is stolen.
Now you can judge me I really don't care, because those who do, doesn't live in my country and don't know what is the situation here.

Side-note: I have no intention to discuss governmental problems I just wanted to give a whole picture.

[theLuckyDragon]

A wristwatch and a car are both very concrete things. To my reckoning, having them in one's possession illegally is much more likely to generate a sentiment of guilt than having in one's possession data written on a CD or downloaded via a torrent, which to my mind seem rather abstract. Maybe this also plays a role in why piracy comes so easily and naturally in certain cultures. Combining this with low income and the fascination exerted by computers and video games in their early days, one can get an idea of how it started (at least I guess that's how things were in Romania). After that it was more or less a snowball effect: "everybody is pirating, why should I be a dope and pay?" Nowadays people should be able to afford games, I think.

I remember the first game I ever played was pirated. I was very young back then and, in all honesty, I didn't have the slightest notion that someone actually toiled on it, I just took it as a given. The games just existed. I suppose I'm past that phase now

I'm not trying to defend this practice; this thread just got me pondering on how piracy started in Romania in the first place.

Oh, and what I find really funny is people who buy pirated games: what the heck is that? Either you get them for free or buy the original. But to pay to get a pirated/cracked/possibly incomplete thing sounds really ridiculous.

[Humakt]

I like how you call it pathetic. Sounds like an invitation to flaming, maybe I should start insulting too, your elephantine ignorance makes you easy targets.

Pathetic=Pitiful. Which is hardly an insult. But I guess someone who is so on edge on this matter might be insulted by pretty much anything other side says. I won't comment on the rest of your post because I do not want to start flaming. But I really advice against buying pirated versions of games. It's much worse to pay for pirates than to download the games for free. By doing so you are actually supporting criminal activities, and your money might well end up in mafia's coffers.

[Corribus]

Heh you know whats even dumber? Comparing a fictive material that can be easily copied to physical items that you cannot.

"Oh, I'm sorry, your honor, but how many people do you know that would actually spend half their salary on a thousand electronic shares of Microsoft stock? Maybe now you can understand why I stole them."

If you could "steal" a Lexus by copying it to a blank car template that you bought cheap then we'd see hell of a lot of Jaguars, Ferraris and Lamborghinis around,

You do know that argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, right?

[Infiltrator]

Pathetic=Pitiful. Which is hardly an insult. But I guess someone who is so on edge on this matter might be insulted by pretty much anything other side says. I won't comment on the rest of your post because I do not want to start flaming. But I really advice against buying pirated versions of games. It's much worse to pay for pirates than to download the games for free. By doing so you are actually supporting criminal activities, and your money might well end up in mafia's coffers.

I don't know about you but I feel pretty offended when called out either pathetic or pitiful. How is the rest of my post inflammatory? Did I personally offend you by saying some of those things? I'm not filling the mafia's coffers, the guys who do it work on their own and this is just a side-job to cover their monthly expenses.

"Oh, I'm sorry, your honor, but how many people do you know that would actually spend half their salary on a thousand electronic shares of Microsoft stock? Maybe now you can understand why I stole them."

Can you copy electronic shares on disks, and even if you could without any restrictions whatsoever? Fail again.

You do know that argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, right?

It is, though you should learn how to throw it around since it does not apply to what I said.

I agree with TheLuckyDragon. It's just hard for you to grasp the big picture because of where you live. It's not your fault.

To answer the question about buying pirated games - I "buy" them as in paying someone to download them, as my countries' public ISP services are expensive and restrictive at the same time. Case in point - I have 10 GBs per month worth of download and it costs me 30 euros a month. So if I download a game I blow half of my bandwidth? I'd rather pay a guy who has unlimited traffic 2 euros to download it and burn it for me.

[theLuckyDragon]

@Corribus
You really cling to your logics, don't you? It's okay, over there where you are you can afford to do it. But do understand that in other socio-economical situations, pragmatical considerations come first.

It's not the way it should be, but it's the way the situation is (rather unfortunately, I might add).

[Muszka]

It's not the way it should be, but it's the way the situation is (rather unfortunately, I might add).

I think those who don't live in such situations can't really understand, so explanation is somewhat futile.

[Corribus]

I agree with TheLuckyDragon. It's just hard for you to grasp the big picture because of where you live. It's not your fault.

It's okay, over there where you are you can afford to do it. But do understand that in other socio-economical situations, pragmatical considerations come first.

Look, if we were talking about food or clothes, then maybe you could convince me of your logic purely on sympathetic grounds. Ok, your nation may be poor and so if you have to struggle to have basic necessities of life, and if that entails stealing, then ok at least I can sympathize with that, even if I still wouldn't agree that stealing is justified ethically.

But PLEASE, we're talking about computer games. Not exactly stuff you need to survive. You aren't really tugging my heart-strings here. I mean do you think you're really going to convince me that stealing software is ok just because "I don't understand how hard it is in your country to get computer software, and whatever will you do if you don't get to play your computer games? BOO HOO HOO " I mean, that's essentially the argument you're using, trying to make me see how stealing luxury items for you is somehow justified because of your woeful local situation. If it's such a struggle for you to afford a computer game where you live, then maybe playing computer games shouldn't be your priority. What makes you feel entitled to have any luxury item you want just because you want it?

There's lots of luxury items *I* would like to have. To keep us in the same ball-park topic, I would LOVE to own a Playstation3 or an XBox 360. But at several hundred dollars, that's a large chunk of my monthly pay and I just can't afford that. Yet, you don't see me going out and stealing one! Fine, you want to grasp at some silly tenuous argument about how one is "solid" and one isn't (although frankly I don't see the distinction - stealing is stealing in my book)? I would love to go out and buy dozens of computer games to play. But aside from not having the time, 50 US dollars a pop isn't cheap either, regardless of what you have to pay in comparison, and may times I've picked games up at the store, looked at them envioiusly, and then put them back down because I just can't afford to blow 50 dollars carelessly. Yet, you don't see ME going out and stealing them off the internet. You criticize me for not knowing your situation, well you don't 'really know my situation either. And my situation is that I can't afford to buy every game I want and I accept that because I do have the moral integrity to understand what is stealing and what isn't, and to know that just because it isn't a solid item doesn't mean that taking it without paying for it is still wrong.

The problem is that you feel that if you want something, you are entitled to it, and if that means stealing it because you can't afford it legally, then so be it. If that's a-ok by your ethical standards, or your country's ethical standards, then fine. I'm sorry if I can't agree with that. I believe that if you want something, you sacrifice for it, and if you can't afford to sacrifice for it, then you don't get it. Period.

[Moragauth]

"It's a very dumb bit of logic. Try it on for size with conventional physical items to see how silly it is:"





The argument as it is commonly given is crap, I agree. But whether intellectual property is a just form of property needs to be argued for via a theory of property, and Kinsella demonstrates why this fails in his article Against Intellectual Property. What can happen instead is reliance on contractual clauses limiting what one may do with the product, and these are binding as they set conditions on ownership (i.e. the firm never sold full ownership in the first place.)



What pisses me off are people who think they're entitled to pirate because of a price they don't like. No, you're not 'entitled' to it. And if a firm attaches a contractual clause limiting your use of the purchased item, again you have no right to copy it, and the firm has every right to prosecute you for it. Firms may opt against this purely out of cost considerations, of course - it isn't cheap to do this, and even harder to enforce it in the case of third parties, which is why firms might go for alternatives, as is happening in the music industry. Either way, I find justifications for theft sloppy in the case of common physical items, and purely stupid in the case of luxury items, like games.
Edited on Fri, Feb 29 2008, 12:02 by Moragauth

[Jolly Joker]

Let's face it, the revenue lost from the low-income countries within the EU is non-existent, because no one there could buy a game for 50 €, at least not many.
The issue here is not pirating. The issue is LOST REVENUE because of pirating.
This means, the figures are only interesting for countries in which people COULD afford to buy a game, but don't and INSTEAD pirate it. People who simply can't are not interesting.
[Which doesn't mean pirating is okay - people there could just wait until things come cheaper - lots of interesting games are available for 5 €]
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Err, this reminds me of a Polish joke, by the way: You know, since all stolen cars in Western Europe used to "vanish" in Eastern Europe via Poland there was this cliché about Polish people stealing everything that has wheels.
So here's the joke. Umm, you know the Polish Triathlon? Jog to the public bath (1), swim a couple of rounds (2), back home with a bike (3).
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Back to the revenue.
The trouble here is, that in countries where people CAN afford to buy products of the leisure time industry the limiting factor is TIME. Everyone can watch only so many DvDs and play only so many hours computer games or online games, which means that the capacity of the market is limited.
I'm pretty sure, if there was NO way to pirate games, sales figures wouldn't go up significantly. Reasons are:
1) Adventure games have little to no replay value - a LOT of people are buying/selling them used at Ebay, so an adventure game is played by MANY people.
2) A serious game involving any kind of strategy with A LOT of replay value is going to hold your attention for a pretty long time. New games tend to have high learning curves - if you invest the learning time you play the games for some time. How many different games can a dedicated gamer play seriously each year? If there was no way to get games cheap or for free, does anyone think think the 60% games would sell many copies?

The plain fact at this stage is that things have been blown up to idiot proportions in a time when a talented programmer could do a game alone in a month or so. Games would consists of half a Meg and still cost 50 €. I can even remember a time when Miscroprose games where sold for 70 € when everything else cost half as much than now.
The market is full of mediocre and even bad stuff that no one really needs.
Chess vs. the Axis of Evil anyone, for example?
The development is not unexpected either.
Number of published titles have to be reduced, quality has to go up.

So the conclusion here is, that this is all theory. No matter the amount of piracy and no matter how illegal and bad piracy is - without it I don't think REVENUE would be bigger. At least not much.

[Vlaad II]

Whoa, what's with the holier-than-thou attitude, folks? No, piracy is not OK, but people who can't afford games are not the problem - they wouldn't buy them anyway. I understand that was the initial topic here.

@ Angelspit:

And where would you draw the line...? Stop hosting maps made by pirated editors, delete articles and comics based on pirated software, ban members who play pirated games, fire CH staff members who buy pirated CDs...?

[Corribus]

Well there's two issues -

A financial one, which is probably almost impossible to evaluate in any quantitative fashion.

An ethical one.

And they are somewhat related.

[theLuckyDragon]

Games are a luxury article? So that's what's been causing all the confusion.

I don't think they're luxury articles. They certainly aren't basic necessities either, but more like something in the middle. Anyhow, I do not want to get into this any more, otherwise I might contradict what I myself have said in the moderation discussion thread.

Have a pleasant conversation everybody

P.S. And I'm not trying to convince anyone "of my logic", as it has been put. Logic is overrated.

[Corribus]

Games are a luxury article? So that's what's been causing all the confusion.

It's really a matter of trivial semantics in any case, but:

lux·u·ry (lŭg'zhə-rē, lŭk'shə-)
n. pl. lux·u·ries

1. Something inessential but conducive to pleasure and comfort.

Edit: Luxuries don't have to be something expensive. For instance, when you have a baby to take care of, having a few hours to sit down and relax and watch a movie is a DEFINITE luxury. Am I right, AS??

[Angelspit]

Stop hosting maps made by pirated editors, delete articles and comics based on pirated software, ban members who play pirated games, fire CH staff members who buy pirated CDs...?

Where did I suggest such actions exactly?

[Moragauth]

I agree with Corribus. For all purposes, like I said, I think firms should cease relying on IP laws and try work things out via contracts, where possible, or just adopt flexible pricing models (as some are already doing.) But for anyone actually interested in the ethical and legal arguments behind this, they should read Kinsella's paper.



Regarding games, it's true for most people they are neither luxury items or necessities, given the subjective nature of economic goods (I won't go into how this is derived) - I mentioned this as a 'by the way', it isn't central to the ethical argument. I'm a game addict though...
Edited on Fri, Feb 29 2008, 12:45 by Moragauth