Fabrice Cambounet Q&A

[ywhtptgtfo]

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Oh come on. You have seen enough to build your own opinion. You don't need that cheap excuse "what I read out from JJ's post". You are no stranger to all that and when you say you want to point out "that the people who communicate with F are somewhat confused in what is their role", you claim to know a lot more. Shouldn't everyone speak for themselves?

And to make it perfectly clear: there are already enough people - for everything, mind you - who are "worrying about quality" and whatnot; but who's willing to take RESPONSIBILITY? Talk is cheap.

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That'd be Nival supposedly.

[Sir Charles]

quote from ywhtptgtfo: "Why not just have the community leaders contact Fabrice and tell him that he missed something about the map editors? I am sure there's much more than *****ing that can be done about this.



As for JJ supporting Nival - not like it's unexpected."



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When Fabrice says that he didn't recieve much feedback about the editor, he's not talking about NOW. But rather back several months ago when they still had a budget that could've done something constructive about it. If you continued reading you'd see that he says that "We have reached the end of the product lifecycle for Heroes 5, and adding new elements or rework developpement tools is not possible at this stage." We sadly missed that boat. It's already sailed. So instead of griping about the past, let's focus on the future and make sure we don't have the same mistakes with H6's editor.



And the JJ digs are getting VERY old VERY quickly. JJ bashes Nival when warrented....and praises them when appropriate too. I certainly didn't see him "supporting" them in THIS thread. Did YOU? Or are you reading things INTO his posts like many here love to do?



Nival isn't perfect. They made many mistakes on this game. But they also made many GOOD things with this game but people just politely overlook those things because it doesn't support their particular gripe. Sad.
Edited on Sat, Jan 12 2008, 18:30 by Sir Charles

[jeff]

When Fabrice says that he didn't recieve much feedback about the editor, he's not talking about NOW. But rather back several months ago when they still had a budget that could've done something constructive about it.

Several months ago or one month after the editor was released, all forums were filled with threads or at least posts asking, begging or demanding that something be done, so none of this is an excuse or explanation that holds water or passes the common sense test. So he did not have to go through all threads, I don’t believe anyone does, but at the very least he could have asked his moderators on the official forum and they could have directed his attention to the threads there. Is it too late, yes but their/his arrogance or incompetence your choice has alienated many long time fans. Fabrice screwed up big time, and then he screws even more saying he had no input. As I said before, he would have been better to say the editor will not be updated without explanation, at least then his ineptitude would not have been revealed.

[Muszka]

"A game has problems and members of fan community are to blame? I find this a bit scary."

Yep. We'll eat each other alive till not much will be left out of the community, while Ubisoft will stay on the side laughing of how fool we all are and counting their money.

Indeed. We point at each other with fingers, and blame each other because something went wrong. We see that H5 could have been the great sequel to H3, we see it as a good game, but still it's not like it should be, like it could have been better. For some of us is good, is great, I feel the "just one more turn" feeling, I like it, but many don't, so there is a problem, what should have been solved, but now it won't be because of the "money counting Ubisoft", to use Zamolxis' words. If there's a problem, someone made something wrong, somebody has the fault. Or maybe there are more of those who could have done something and they didn't. We (the comunity), blame who can, the comunity leaders, because though I may write a letter to Fabrice or any other chief developer, blaming them for my favorite game didn't came up like I would have wanted, but the best that can happen is a common answer, with blah, blah, blah in it. Still I find this is all normal, because they don't know me, I may be a selfish idiot.
But on the other hand there are the community leaders who can speak, and their words are listened, their ideas might get implemented. They have a chance to add something to the game, while, our chances are rather scum.
Sometimes we blame them rightfully, because of the chances mentioned above, because they have to spoke to be listened, instead of being mute.
But in the most cases we blame them, (you) wrongfully, because
-we forget that one can spoke loudest if he isn't listened. And sometimes even if the one who listens, seemingly agrees, than walking out of the room, just forgets a part, or all of the disscussion.
-we forget that interaction is needed from both sides.
-we forget, the ones mentioned by Sir Charles, that a community leader, presumably has a job, family and still he/she devotes some of his/her free time to a game, and he does that willingly, and we have no rights to ask anything from him/her.
-we forget that he/she is also a player/mapmaker who shares our loss if the game it's not how it should be.
But this cannot be undone. The game has flaws, the two biggest are the old fans, who left, because they felt, that this got to much money-centered (is just me, or there are just too many graphics-centered newcommers, who'll disappear, once they can get the new Quake 5 or Halo 4), and the fans didn't get the rightfully wanted attention. And of course the other big negative element of the game is the editor.
To use of Sir Charles' words once again, this ship has gone, we see the mistakes now, the question is that can we square our shoulders to the task ahead, and find the soultion in the future, what surely isn't the internal conflict. Have we learned of the errors, to not let H6 to go wrong, because afterr all, we can have our two cent in the final game, and here I meant not just the CH, and RT, but the other communities too.

[Muszka]

.

Slava, are you out there somewhere?

Is this a praise? I think something went terribly wrong if we need praises. Praises used to come, when hope begins to fade.

As I said before, he would have been better to say the editor will not be updated without explanation, at least then his ineptitude would not have been revealed.

Why? Isn't it better to see clearly, who is friends, and who's an enemy.

[ywhtptgtfo]

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When Fabrice says that he didn't recieve much feedback about the editor, he's not talking about NOW. But rather back several months ago when they still had a budget that could've done something constructive about it. If you continued reading you'd see that he says that "We have reached the end of the product lifecycle for Heroes 5, and adding new elements or rework developpement tools is not possible at this stage." We sadly missed that boat. It's already sailed. So instead of griping about the past, let's focus on the future and make sure we don't have the same mistakes with H6's editor.

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Well, that's unfortunate. I agree that the best thing to do is to move on, but it's also understandable for people to throw tomatos at Nival and whoever that are supposed to be their eyes and ears in the community (the community leaders?). The thing with map editor is just too obvious to be missed (but I am sure the horde of posts below already went over that and no, I don't have time to read them all).



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And the JJ digs are getting VERY old VERY quickly. JJ bashes Nival when warrented....and praises them when appropriate too. I certainly didn't see him "supporting" them in THIS thread. Did YOU? Or are you reading things INTO his posts like many here love to do?

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I am just interpreting things as I see them. On numerous occasions where the game quality was discussed, he had a tendency of relentlessly defending Nival using reasonings that are not exactly agreeable (by my standards). I don't intend to make this a discussion about JJ, so feel free to leave it at that.



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Nival isn't perfect. They made many mistakes on this game. But they also made many GOOD things with this game but people just politely overlook those things because it doesn't support their particular gripe. Sad.

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Nival's not doing any charity work here. I bought the whole Heroes 5 package with good money: (50 + 30 + 30) x 15% tax =~ 150 Canadian dollars - for one who's studying full time and working part time, it's a lot of money.



Now, I am not sure what kind of gripe you are refering to but I certainly don't think it's wise to trivialize negative perspectives on HoMM5. Personally, I stopped criticizing the game after the release of TotE (which was okay), but that doesn't mean others should have the same tolerance for 10-min waiting time b/w AI move (which I passed with a textbook on my thigh).

[Jolly Joker]

Well said, Chuck. And to illustrate the point, here are 2 quotes from this thread. The first is from Zamolxis, page 3:

"... it comes as no suprise for me that JJ... tries to throw the responsibility for all that went wrong at Nival..."

Now compare that with: a quote from yw.... from page 4 of this thread:

"As for JJ supporting Nival - not like it's unexpected."

No further comment.

[Jolly Joker]

I'm sure you had something new to say, so edit it already, or is this last post a subtle suggestion that the same things are repeated over and over again?

[jeff]

As I said before, he would have been better to say the editor will not be updated without explanation, at least then his ineptitude would not have been revealed.

Why? Isn't it better to see clearly, who is friends, and who's an enemy.

It's all about PR and the public's perception, my god look at the steroids controversy here in the states. Whether it was his responsibility or not, that comment made him look bad, UBI look bad and Nival look bad, and what was gained nothing, but a lot of venting (me included) that will lead nowhere as far as H-V is concerned. I would be less nervous about the future for H-VI, if I was confident in Fabrice's ability to assess what the fan's want. His comment certainly leaves open to question that ability. Saying nothing or saying we heard but decided it was not practical to incorporate the changes in the current editor may have angered people, but those positions could be defended on an economic basis, but to say no one supplied information on the editor at the very least makes him ‘look’ like a moron. As far as this thread is concerned it has gone on long enough for me as we are just restating our previous statements. JJ has several good points many of which I agreed with (see my earlier post) which is unusual. I hope Fabrice gets his toes burned badly enough he will think before he speaks, and that he has learned there are plenty of avenues of information available, and most of them are free and unsolicited, all he needs to do is lift his head out of the sand and look.

Lastly I doubt such a statement was made to weed out friends and enemies, if that were true most would fall in the enemy camp as even JJ has criticized UBI on the rare occasion. That is just a foolish idea and one that would forever tear apart the fan base.

[Muszka]

There is steroid controversy in Europe too, I know of at least one case. For example the one, where a former olympic champion female swimmer was accused. Though later it became obvious, she was innocent in in the steroid accusements. But the whole thing made the swimmer to retire, and to not to go to the next olimpics.
What was good in it? Indeed, as you said, nothing, it made her to look bad, and mad her to lose the will to compete.
But I don't se Nival or Ubi in this state. As long as they get their money, they won't really care what fans think about them. Nor I would.
The whole enemy and friend idea was meant a bit generally, I won't see JJ or Sir Charles as an enemy who pacted with UBI, no way! They just try to be realistic. They saw things some of could not. Contrarly, I see that most of us are in the same boat, struggring after the ship what went allready, and we'll be castaways till the next one (H6), and we blame each other.
It was meant rather to se clearly the ignorance of Fabrice. And don't tell me, that you had a good opinion of him, before his statement.

In the end I hope there would be no tearing apart, I don't really believe in "the end" myth, in no way of it. But I do believe that some people would leave the community, because some left already, and that's sad indeed. And that's a loss that we'll mourn later.

[Anonymous]

It was meant rather to se clearly the ignorance of Fabrice. And don't tell me, that you had a good opinion of him, before his statement.

First I will say that and I resent that implication, prior to his recent statements I've never questioned Fabrice's motives or intelligence. In fact in several threads I pointed out (most several months ago, once again pointing out how implausible his comment was) Fabrice had mentioned that more work on the editor was forthcoming. I had always assumed he was intuned and concerned with the fans, but now there are big questions on the intuned part, but I still believe he cares about the fans. We however need more than someone who cares.

But I don't se Nival or Ubi in this state. As long as they get their money, they won't really care what fans think about them. Nor I would.

The fact you say as long as you got your money you would not care about fans is an interesting insight.

[ywhtptgtfo]

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I hope Fabrice gets his toes burned badly enough he will think before he speaks, and that he has learned there are plenty of avenues of information available, and most of them are free and unsolicited, all he needs to do is lift his head out of the sand and look.

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Not the first time he needs to anyway. I wonder what's the next big mistake Nival will make.

[ywhtptgtfo]

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Well said, Chuck. And to illustrate the point, here are 2 quotes from this thread. The first is from Zamolxis, page 3:



"... it comes as no suprise for me that JJ... tries to throw the responsibility for all that went wrong at Nival..."



Now compare that with: a quote from yw.... from page 4 of this thread:



"As for JJ supporting Nival - not like it's unexpected."



No further comment.

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Sorry JJ, I should've said Ubi. Got your employers mixed up. By the way, I'd do you a service and requote Zamolxis, since you've obviously left out an important part of his message:



"Regarding the 'game designer' story, it comes as no suprise for me that JJ - member of what we could call "Ubi's selected elite group" - tries to throw the responsibility for all that went wrong at Nival (whom he was actually very much defending back in 2005-2006)."

[Jolly Joker]

Sorry JJ, I should've said Ubi. Got your employers mixed up. By the way, I'd do you a service and requote Zamolxis, since you've obviously left out an important part of his message:
[Zam quote] "Regarding the 'game designer' story, it comes as no suprise for me that JJ - member of what we could call "Ubi's selected elite group" - tries to throw the responsibility for all that went wrong at Nival (whom he was actually very much defending back in 2005-2006)." [eoq]
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You could do me, yourself and everyone else a better service by simply reading the posts someone else comments upon instead of simply requoting the comments because you run the danger of simply requoting a lot of nonsense. Which is the case here. To help you onto the right track I requote myself:
"I would even go so far and say that for the map editor after 3 months or so a poll in the map-makers' guilds might have been made which would have solved the input question (which is of course not possible for the game as such).
INSTEAD the same process as for the game as such was used at that time (late summer 06; patch 1.3) for the editor debugging and a bit later for a general streamlining process (patch 1.4), probably a mistake. That mistake is the direct consequence of underestimating the complexity of the editor as such and the map-making process, which is a lot more difficult to verify than game aspects (for which you have cheat codes at that)."
You may note that this is not about Nival, but instead of the fly that Zamolxis dramatically elephantizes as "Ubi's selected elite group" and Fabrice and Ubisoft.
Quite obviously Jeff had absolutely no problem grasping what I meant, so if you don't care to read MY posts you may read at least HIS - he's not under any suspicion to be all too UBI-, Nival- or JJ-friendly, so you don't run any danger of being contaminated with noisome thoughts poisoning your sanity or whatever if you do.

[Muszka]

@JJ
Why are you nervous?
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First I will say that and I resent that implication, prior to his recent statements I've never questioned Fabrice's motives or intelligence. In fact in several threads I pointed out (most several months ago, once again pointing out how implausible his comment was) Fabrice had mentioned that more work on the editor was forthcoming. I had always assumed he was intuned and concerned with the fans, but now there are big questions on the intuned part, but I still believe he cares about the fans. We however need more than someone who cares.

I didn't questioned his intelligents either, nor another I did question any other skill of his. But I don't like how he treats fans. If it's "care", how he treats them, us, than I don't want of his care.
And from another view, if we take the fact, that it told that more work on the editor will come, and than nothing, or nearly nothing, than he either isn't serious, either doesn't cares.

The fact you say as long as you got your money you would not care about fans is an interesting insight.

I believe in human evilness. Everyone has evil in hiself/herself, as it has good. But evil has more probability to come out, especially if there's money and power in the game.
I also believe that more 99% of people would do the same.
Oh, let me quote something I learned from Timothy Duncan and from his Goldheart:

In everyone, young or old,
lives a demon made of gold.

[Humakt]

This community makes me laugh too sometimes.

About the editor, what I'd like to really see is simple objects that we had in H3 and H4, namely the Border Gates and Quest Gates (border/quest guards that do not disappear). They have been such a big design elements in many of my maps that I'm kind of surprised that no other map makers seem to miss them. Also while Heroes 5 is pretty, it could use more scenery objects.

[Jolly Joker]

@JJ
Why are you nervous?

Nervous? What makes you think I am nervous of all things? I mean, why should I be?

[Muszka]

@JJ
Why are you nervous?

Nervous? What makes you think I am nervous of all things? I mean, why should I be?

I would make a little correction. You seem to be mad at everybody. I don't know why is that, nor is my buisness, it's just weird a bit, that you oppose nearly everybody, everytime.
For example it may seem that you defend Ubisoft, while I don't think you are on their side.

[ThunderTitan]

OMG, a fight on CH without me at the forefront?! How odd.

[Moragauth]

"The fact you say as long as you got your money you would not care about fans is an interesting insight."



In the la la land of simplistic game theory maybe. If Nival wants to keep making money, that isn't a very good way to do it.



Fact is, if you don't like the game, sell it and don't buy another thing from Ubi or Nival. I like the game, so I have no problem.