GameSpot Gives Tribes a 5.5

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Postby arturchix » Oct 21 2007, 18:00

because a good editor is what keeps fans so interested in a Heroes game.
Is that really so? Personally I don't care how good is the game editor and I don't think most of the gamers do, except the mapmakers.

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Postby jeff » Oct 21 2007, 18:07

Jolly Joker wrote:@ Jeff
I fail to see what your griping about the editor has to do with the Gamespot review. It isn't even mentioned.


You're right, but it is my soapbox and I'm staying on it, maybe someone in France will hear and fix it. :D

arturchix wrote:
because a good editor is what keeps fans so interested in a Heroes game.
Is that really so? Personally I don't care how good is the game editor and I don't think most of the gamers do, except the mapmakers.


I think you missed her point, while the average player does not care, the maps produced by the H-IV editor and later the Equilibris upgrade has kept the H-IV community supplied with excellent maps. The H-V editor is a bottle neck to good fan made map production. I personally would love to make H-V maps but not with the current editor. :(
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GameSpot Gives Tribes a 5.5

Postby grimogre » Oct 21 2007, 18:13

Mother Mary,Full of grace!I predicted on OCT 20 at 18:51 that a review would be scored an 8.It has happened twice.Do you people,now want me to turn water into wine:)

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Postby Metathron » Oct 21 2007, 18:19

HodgePodge wrote:Again, a good, user-friendly Map/Campaign Editor is such an important element of a game like Heroes that without it, the game isn't worth having.


Sorry, but this sweeping statement is such a load of bull. It was not the map editor that made Heroes IV such a wonderful game to me. It was not the map editor that made me go out and buy it either. I'm grateful that the map editor was very well-developed, and that many of our resident mapmakers produced interesting maps with it, but that's not the main reason why I loved the game either (I actually only used the editor rarely when I wanted to modify my favourite maps); it was simply the game itself that I loved and still do. And if more stuff comes out for the game, so much the better. Due to its editor, maps for TotE might be slower to emerge and fewer overall, and while that's a pity, it's hardly something that will diminish my enjoyment of the game.
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Postby jeff » Oct 21 2007, 18:25

Metathron wrote:
HodgePodge wrote:Again, a good, user-friendly Map/Campaign Editor is such an important element of a game like Heroes that without it, the game isn't worth having.


Sorry, but this sweeping statement is such a load of bull. It was not the map editor that made Heroes IV such a wonderful game to me. It was not the map editor that made me go out and buy it either. I'm grateful that the map editor was very well-developed, and that many of our resident mapmakers produced interesting maps with it, but that's not the main reason why I loved the game either (I actually only used the editor rarely when I wanted to modify my favourite maps); it was simply the game itself that I loved and still do. And if more stuff comes out for the game, so much the better. Due to its editor, maps for TotE might be slower to emerge and fewer overall, and while that's a pity, it's hardly something that will diminish my enjoyment of the game.


Read my post above, you have also missed her point. The average player does not care except it allows the creation of good maps. Without fan made maps H-IV and perhaps the heroes franchise would have withered a long time ago. It was the fan made maps that kept a large part of the community interested. The current map editor for H-V may well have ended interest in Heroes in a few months after the last expansion’s release except it is believed H-VI is in design. So you may not care, but you would if the fan made maps had not been their for you to play.
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Postby Pitsu » Oct 21 2007, 18:55

arturchix wrote:
because a good editor is what keeps fans so interested in a Heroes game.
Is that really so? Personally I don't care how good is the game editor and I don't think most of the gamers do, except the mapmakers.


And most people do not have *personal* issues with global warming, nuclear arms, pollution... Such abstract and far away things are simply not understandable for them as long as their own 10x10 m garden is green.
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Postby HodgePodge » Oct 21 2007, 19:19

Metathron wrote:
HodgePodge wrote:Again, a good, user-friendly Map/Campaign Editor is such an important element of a game like Heroes that without it, the game isn't worth having.

Sorry, but this sweeping statement is such a load of bull. It was not the map editor that made Heroes IV such a wonderful game to me. It was not the map editor that made me go out and buy it either. I'm grateful that the map editor was very well-developed, and that many of our resident mapmakers produced interesting maps with it, but that's not the main reason why I loved the game either (I actually only used the editor rarely when I wanted to modify my favourite maps); it was simply the game itself that I loved and still do. And if more stuff comes out for the game, so much the better. Due to its editor, maps for TotE might be slower to emerge and fewer overall, and while that's a pity, it's hardly something that will diminish my enjoyment of the game.

Well, that's your opinion, dearie! My opinion is that unless HV has a good map editor it will blow itself out in a year or less. Mainly because the maps included with the game are so totally insipid … with no variety or originality. With a good, user-friendly Map/Campaign Editor, fans can create maps and/or campaigns which would actually be worth playing.

The Map Editor included with HV not only is too hard to use but also doesn't allow someone to create imaginative storylines. With the current editor, all one can create is another map with a dull win condition of "Defeat All Enemies" or find "Tear of Asha"! BLAH! :disagree:
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Postby Metathron » Oct 21 2007, 19:29

jeff wrote:Read my post above, you have also missed her point.


Sorry, but I don't think there was a point to miss to begin with. Map editors are not the alpha and omega of gaming. If a game is solid/good/great, then it deserves to be given a chance, regardless of the presence of a map editor or its state. If it involves a map editor that's easy to use and master, then this will only increase the longevity of a game. But the fact remains that the game was good to begin with and that's why you picked it up in the first place.

For example, I think Clive Barker's Undying was one of the best games ever. However, despite great reviews, the game had no multiplayer option and was sadly overlooked by the majority of the gaming community. Would I have liked to see a multiplayer option for it? A resounding yes. Do I think the game would have lasted longer and gotten more recognition with a multiplayer option? Another yes. Do I think it's a fine game despite those shortcomings? Uh-huh. If a multiplayer-less sequel was announced, would I purchase it? Amen and hell yeah!
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 21 2007, 19:33

As if the idea of giving a game a 1 out of 10 because of a not too user-friendly editor wasn't absurd enough, no, now global warming, nuclear arms and pollution are entering the equation.

We are not talking about a MISSING editor, mind you, or an inept thing you can only make basic maps with, no. We are talking about the ease of use.

By the way, if the game was oh so mediocre - who'd need a map editor in the first place? In that case, who'd want to play more maps?
So, with a game rated 5.5 who cares about an EDITOR? Who's want to create maps for such lousy game?
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Postby HodgePodge » Oct 21 2007, 19:41

Jolly Joker wrote:As if the idea of giving a game a 1 out of 10 because of a not too user-friendly editor wasn't absurd enough, no, now global warming, nuclear arms and pollution are entering the equation.

We are not talking about a MISSING editor, mind you, or an inept thing you can only make basic maps with, no. We are talking about the ease of use.

By the way, if the game was oh so mediocre - who'd need a map editor in the first place? In that case, who'd want to play more maps?
So, with a game rated 5.5 who cares about an EDITOR? Who's want to create maps for such lousy game?

There are many mapmakers who care about an EDITOR! If you remember, Heroes IV got not too great reviews either, but with its fantastic EDITOR, it has become a gem. Most of the best Heroes maps & campaigns, created by mapmaking fans has made it so. A user-friendly EDITOR is very important to the longevity of the game and can even allow for improved 'ease of use'. Nival cheated the Heroes Community by not fixing the Map Editor.
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Postby Gaidal Cain » Oct 21 2007, 19:49

Metathron wrote:Sorry, but I don't think there was a point to miss to begin with. Map editors are not the alpha and omega of gaming. If a game is solid/good/great, then it deserves to be given a chance, regardless of the presence of a map editor or its state. If it involves a map editor that's easy to use and master, then this will only increase the longevity of a game. But the fact remains that the game was good to begin with and that's why you picked it up in the first place.


We're not talking about "gaming" here, we're talking about HoMM. Campaigns and maps supplied with was not what kept players playing h3 or h4, because apart from a rare gem, those has never been as good as what fans has been able to create (and even those gems only shone in a certain light. The Gauldoth campaign in H4 has a really great story, but game play wise, it's rather dull). I'd say that making a good map editor is the smartest thing Ubival could do, because that will keep players playing their game for far longer than anything else they could do, which would foster a good fan base and help draw new people to the series. Whether reviewers should care about that is another thing.
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Postby Meandor » Oct 21 2007, 19:50

So who is going to bring in nazis and Hitler point to this debate?
...

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Postby Metathron » Oct 21 2007, 19:53

HodgePodge wrote:Well, that's your opinion, dearie! My opinion is that unless HV has a good map editor it will blow itself out in a year or less. Mainly because the maps included with the game are so totally insipid … with no variety or originality. With a good, user-friendly Map/Campaign Editor, fans can create maps and/or campaigns which would actually be worth playing.

The Map Editor included with HV not only is too hard to use but also doesn't allow someone to create imaginative storylines. With the current editor, all one can create is another map with a dull win condition of "Defeat All Enemies" or find "Tear of Asha"! BLAH! :disagree:


That is my opinion, and I think your opinion is a tad too gloomy, shweetheart. In less than a year and half since HoMM V was first released, this site has accumulated 77 maps for Heroes V and I am sure more maps will follow. And there are other sites out there with their own map archives.

So, despite its awkwardness, mapmakers have used the HoMM V editor and created a whole lot of quality content. Too bad their efforts don't seem to be appreciated by some.

But perhaps you'd like to turn a blind eye to that as it might inconvenience you from further waxing lyrical about the alleged shoddiness of the game? :lol:
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Postby jeff » Oct 21 2007, 20:03

Ok I have unfortunately taken this thread far off topic and will make this my last post here. I’m more than happy to debate this elsewhere. JJ if you could get out of your tunnel vision hatred of H-IV you would have discovered that even a game with a poor AI can be compensated for by clever scripting. The maps that come from the game company are frequently shallow in story and I find I can’t replay them after the first time through consequently a game without an editor has a short run for me and others and is difficult to justify the price. I have never said that H-V was so terrible that it is unplayable, with a good editor in the hands of many in this community good maps could keep H-V interesting until H-VI is released. If you tried some of the games created by Wimfrits and Rakne Fne to name two you would have found what a good gaming experience H-IV could be. The fact they failed to make an editor that was as easy to use as its predecessor is INEPT, sorry there is no more polite way of putting it. It has excluded a large group of very talented mapmakers (and I am not including myself there as these others have produced many great maps as opposed to my one campaign). If you are satisfied playing only company supplied maps fine you must be in pig heaven. The maps with engaging storylines are just too difficult with the current editor and that is not just my opinion. Metathron the fact you don’t see the point explains your lack of understanding the disappointment the rest of feel for this game. Those maps you mentioned for H-V for the most part are fairly simplistic and not a story driven RPG style campaign, those were easily possible with the H-IV editor, but not this one. I am sorry but I really can’t simplify it further. If you guys want to debate this further start a thread in the mapmaking guild and I’ll discuss it there.
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Postby Bandobras Took » Oct 21 2007, 20:53

jeff wrote:Ok I have unfortunately taken this thread far off topic and will make this my last post here. I’m more than happy to debate this elsewhere. JJ if you could get out of your tunnel vision hatred of H-IV you would have discovered that even a game with a poor AI can be compensated for by clever scripting.


Er . . . you just lost your own argument right there. If you have to jump through scripting hoops to make a good and playable map, how is that substantially different from jumping through a difficult interface?

Incidentally, the only portion of Heroes fans that are kept going by fan-made maps are those who play fan-made maps. Closed circle.

The maps that come from the game company are frequently shallow in story and I find I can’t replay them after the first time through consequently a game without an editor has a short run for me and others and is difficult to justify the price.


No comment.

If you tried some of the games created by Wimfrits and Rakne Fne to name two you would have found what a good gaming experience H-IV could be. The fact they failed to make an editor that was as easy to use as its predecessor is INEPT, sorry there is no more polite way of putting it.


Because in Heroes IV you could change town types and even remove towns with the Map Editor? I must have missed that script function. There is a more polite way of putting it: The Heroes V Editor allows things that the Heroes IV Editor did not, and NWC was better at putting together an interface than Ubisoft/Nival.

It has excluded a large group of very talented mapmakers (and I am not including myself there as these others have produced many great maps as opposed to my one campaign). If you are satisfied playing only company supplied maps fine you must be in pig heaven.


Or, contrarily, those who aren't satisfied must be in pig hell. :)

Overall, this seems like the same sort of thing that led to Tribe's low score. A determination to be disappointed.

Personally, the only thing that's making me hesitate over getting Tribes is the revamped skill system. Have to memorize a whole new set of progressions . . .
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby jeff » Oct 21 2007, 21:14

Bandobras Took wrote: Er . . . you just lost your own argument right there. If you have to jump through scripting hoops to make a good and playable map, how is that substantially different from jumping through a difficult interface?


You might think that but not at all, the scripting in many case is just supplementing the AI heroes or selecting quests that must be accomplished that are varied and require thinking.

Bandobras Took wrote:Incidentally, the only portion of Heroes fans that are kept going by fan-made maps are those who play fan-made maps. Closed circle.


And since 3DO went under that would have been most of the people that continued to play heroes (that is until H-V was released), not as small a community as one might think.
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GameSpot Gives Tribes a 5.5

Postby Muszka » Oct 22 2007, 1:06

Wow. Like a cold war. Mapmaking pro and contra.
All started, by a review what was obviously influenced by money. (as almoust anything)

But let me ask, that why was HoMM III be a legend with such a simple (user-friendly) editor and such simple scripting, and how could some mapmakers do such great maps like Sander's Folly, Goldheart, Traemask, where the fact that you play fades and you becomes part of the story...
Or maps with almost no story (Adventure, The Tale of the Mighty), but there were so great fights, that it was more than enjoyable.
Or mixed maps, like The Lord of War (Leondegrance's story), with a good story and very good fights.
How?
Because they wanted to, and they used the easy-to-use and simple map editor, to create excelent maps to a legendarily good game.

And for the other side, I mean Heroes IV.
It's not so great like HoMM III, but because of the advancement of the technology, a bit nicer and smooter in some ways.
It has an editor that's really hard to master (at least compared to H III's), still it helped to produce maps like Draconic I-II, a perfect map, said by some, with great story...
And maps like Against all Odds, a reall fight-based map, and mixtures like Alexandra the Great.
And again, how could they do that?
Again, because they wanted to.
And I'm more than sure that in HoMM V (ToE) will be mapmakers who will find the way to make good maps, of any type.

I must agree with those who say that a game or expension's goodness or poorness should be just slightly modified, by it's editor, 'cos most players won't do any maps at all. But all players play maps, so the game's editor will really modify it's longevity.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 22 2007, 5:25

jeff wrote:Ok I have unfortunately taken this thread far off topic and will make this my last post here. I’m more than happy to debate this elsewhere. JJ if you could get out of your tunnel vision hatred of H-IV you would have discovered that even a game with a poor AI can be compensated for by clever scripting. .


Once and for all and to make it clear.

I don't hate H 4.

For me it's a hapless mix of things, something like a Frankenstein, a basterd that does nothing completely right, a Gauldoth Halfdead in its own rights. I find the gameplay rather tedious, AI or not, scripting or not, map editor or not, fan-made maps or not. This is my personal impression. Period. I realize that other people may like the game, and I have no problem with it whatsoever.

I hand back the tunnelvision and quote Metathron:

"So, despite its awkwardness, mapmakers have used the HoMM V editor and created a whole lot of quality content. Too bad their efforts don't seem to be appreciated by some."
ZZZzzzz....

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Postby Pitsu » Oct 22 2007, 7:31

Bandobras Took wrote:Er . . . you just lost your own argument right there. If you have to jump through scripting hoops to make a good and playable map, how is that substantially different from jumping through a difficult interface?


There is a difference between being challenged by a problem or by the way to the problem. In first case you know that you might be the first to build such script, in second case you are challenged by a tool, which many master and once you master it, you do not have the feel of completing something original.

Incidentally, the only portion of Heroes fans that are kept going by fan-made maps are those who play fan-made maps. Closed circle.


The only playing that some mapmakers do is actually playtesting of maps. If you remember Ururam-Tururam then he had completed just like 1 map per 5 he had made or something like that. His wife played and gave all necessary feedback. Like Arturchix said some players do not care about the editor. I think the oposite is true too, some mapmakers play only because they need feedback how their ideas work.


Because in Heroes IV you could change town types and even remove towns with the Map Editor? I must have missed that script function. There is a more polite way of putting it: The Heroes V Editor allows things that the Heroes IV Editor did not, and NWC was better at putting together an interface than Ubisoft/Nival.


Go and download a map with the changing towns made for patch 1.3 and play it under 1.3. Good. Then update your game to 1.5 and see how the updated game plays the same map. Just to get an idea how Ubival treats the mapmakers.

Doh, you killed my any will to update the scripting guide and rather go and delete any advice I have ever given to any H5 mapmaker.
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Postby Jolly Joker » Oct 22 2007, 7:58

This discussion is getting a bit silly, isn't it?
As long as major parts of the game are still changed the maps are not for eternity anyway/have to be patched to still be playable. Just think of the changed Necromancy workings (and before someone starts - that got changed in H 3 as well and would have been/was by Equilibris in H 4).

That means besically that the interests of players and map makers are differing anway: the players want all "balance issues" of the game fixed which might result in drastic game changes. The mapmakers want to have a stable game to be able to make a map without the necessity to cintinually patch it or even have to start over.
Moreover, additional content may render a map useless as in too easy. For example, an SP map that is based on the availability of a certain resource because the player needs a certain upgrade to be able to advance with their army may become too easy by a different army set-up due to the alternate upgrades, and so on.

So what exactly is your point here?
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