TotE Is Out

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Jolly Joker
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 12 Oct 2007, 18:27

Right. That's why I presented the WHOLE quote.
After following procedures here for some time I can safely say, that ripping quotes out of context so thes suit is needs is one of his favorite pastimes - really a bad habit.
I think, he does it for fun, so it makes a lot of sense not to take him too serious.
ZZZzzzz....

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Unread postby Corribus » 12 Oct 2007, 18:54

Can someone explain to me what you guys are arguing about? I've read the last three pages and I'll be damned if I can figure it out.

Or is it just TT being a :devil: ?
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 12 Oct 2007, 18:54

@JJ

That first quote was exactly like it was in his first post... and the second was in one one of the post after that...

---------------------
>You SAID it would say the same thing, but it definitely does NOT - which I already said.<
---------------------

Why, because he mentioned the TBS experience? If he mentioned that Nival was a game developer would it really change anything? What, you think i was implying they just picked whoever had a computer next to them?



---------------------
>Period. What you're reading into it is that Ubisoft looked for the cheapest developer and just happened to get one with TBS experience.<
---------------------

Wrong... that's why i said nothing changed between the 2 quotes... they got the cheapest dev with TBS experience (which should be a given... you don't look for FPS guys to make an adventure game).

And this is what i meant with back paddling:
>(That comment was more about when H5 was being developed rather than pre-h6)<
Even if your first post JJ quoted entirely talks about H6...

---------------------
>Nival's was the most attractive.<
---------------------

Yeah, i got that from the first quote i used: >For the money Ubi is willing to pay for it, Nival's the best available.<

and yes, from an economic PoV, there's little wrong with that... if you're the company. If you're the client the product still costs as much as the one with an unlimited budget.

and it still says one thing: Ubi wanted to make the game on the cheap... some people will mind some won't...
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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 12 Oct 2007, 19:01

Corribus wrote:>Can someone explain to me what you guys are arguing about? I've read the last three pages and I'll be damned if I can figure it out.

Or is it just TT being a :devil: ?<

That's easy, JJ doesn't agree with SirCharles about Ubi's financing strategy being good or bad...
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 12 Oct 2007, 19:26

>For the money Ubi is willing to pay for it, Nival's the best available<
Out of context this sounds like Ubi is paying dirt and Nival is the best of the cheap lot.
>there are very few developers out there with any TBS experience that can compete with the bid that Nival puts out to Ubisoft.<
This means that NIVAL is trying to do the game and will work for less than comparable companies because of that. Something else completely.


The only thing I disagree with is Chuckle's way to express what he wants to say.
The game had a budget - this budget was based on a revenue expectation. The main responsibles for the production had to find a developer. They took the developer that
a) was available (!) and
b) offered the best perspective to make the most of the budget Ubi was willing to pay.
Period.

The bottom line will be, when the dust has settled, that Nival delivered a top product IN THE END that sold well from the start - and you don't need to be a genius to foretell that ToE will bring things in line for nearly everyone except those who have an unsolvable conflict with one or another game aspect.

Which leaves the question why Ubisoft should change the developer for H 6. I mean, Chuckles is dead on. H 5 is meant to compress the essence of the heroes game into a new Heroes 1. I would say, it's Nival's Heroes 1-3, 2007 (and don't start now, ah, it's a copy; it's NOT).
H 6 will be Nival's Heroes 4. With a BIG difference.
Their budget will be BIGGER, not smaller than was NWC's.
The things you DON'T want is to start all over with a new developer having to make their experience with the franchise yet again for the first time.
Most of all, Nival simply deserves the chance.
ZZZzzzz....

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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 12 Oct 2007, 20:02

PhoenixReborn wrote:
ThunderTitan wrote: @PhoenixReborn
2 years? Maybe 2 years ago... and who mentioned the "once a month" comment? Except 4 you right now...
We'll start with this one:

>posted Friday September 21st 2007
Grumpy Old Wizard wrote: Patches have already been verrry slow comming out, much slower than the once per month that was promised.

GOW<
from this thread:

http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... php?t=7064

There's plenty more on the official forum but I'll stick to CH.
Please explain how my post in that thread relates to your comment:
If you don't believe me just look at how they snapped up Fabrice's we'll patch 'once a month' comment. It's the first ammunition in everyone's gun.
Someone asked about why campaigns weren't being produced and I told them. At that point it had been over 8 months since HOF had been patched. Add another month to that now. It was not an attack on Fabrice, Nival, Ubisoft, or Bugs Bunny. It was a statement of fact and is a factor as to why campaigns have not been made, since they can't even be made in the HOF editor. So if yoiu want an example of somebody company bashing look elsewhere.

GOW
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Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Unread postby MistWeaver » 12 Oct 2007, 20:05

Jolly Joker wrote:>So which "major" developers are
>gone since February 06? What exactly DID they
>develop - or more specific - what was their part in
>the development?
Goddamnit JJ, isn't "major" enough ? Or you think Im not telling truth (or telling half-truth) ?
But fine, I've installed the Heroes5 and run Credits. People who were at these posts are now in Nival Online. In braces - number of ppl on particular post.

Executive Producer(1)
Director of Development(2)
Lead Designer(3)
Creative Director(1)
Team-Leaders(2)
Technical Director(1)
AI Programming (1) /Lead Programmer/
Art Director (1)

And thats not all, I just tired to compare lists. Also there were ppl who left after release of HoMM5 to other companies.

Jolly Joker wrote: >On the other hand, seeing that you were not so enthusiastic
>about the game from the beginning - shouldn't you welcome
>the fact that "major" developers have left the boat?
Of course not ! These devs were best of what Nival could offer. Now imagine who had been left to finish the job.
And I *was* enthusiastic about the game. Even after it was told that it is developed by Nival. I stoped after I played demo.
Last edited by MistWeaver on 12 Oct 2007, 21:18, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postby Sir Charles » 12 Oct 2007, 20:12

JJ wrote: "The only thing I disagree with is Chuckle's way to express what he wants to say."

ROFL. If I only had a dollar for everytime somebody told me THAT....including my wife. LOL. :O)
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Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 12 Oct 2007, 21:10

>>
Grumpy Old Wizard wrote: Please explain how my post in that thread relates to your comment:
If you don't believe me just look at how they snapped up Fabrice's we'll patch 'once a month' comment. It's the first ammunition in everyone's gun.
<<

The two comments here aren't related. By that I mean I wasn't using you as an example of an attacker, but merely as someone who was using Fabrice's "once a month" comment which you did reference in your post.

I did this because TT asked me to provide an example.

Reading back I see by using the words everyone's ammunition that included you as an attacker, but that was not my intention.

Clear now?

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Tribes of the East is Out

Unread postby CloudRiderX » 12 Oct 2007, 21:17

There is a good chance of seeing an H6, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out, because it means Ubi will already have firm ground to stand on and we can see what they are really made of.



The reason why I'm looking forward to H6 is because I really don't think H5 stood on its own legs - Ubi had a major advantage when making the game. Think about it - there was this huge HoMM fanbase who thought the series was done for, and suddenly there was a possibility Heroes would come back! That was amazing. I don't know about everyone else, but I was going to buy H5 no matter what it looked like. It didn't matter to me at the time; the fact remained that HoMM was staying alive. That gives Ubi the advantage; my money was in Ubi's pocket before the game even came out. Now that H5 is already out, and the future of the series is seriously being questioned, H6 will truly determine if Ubi can keep the series going.



If H6 flops, and I seriously hope it doesn't, it will really make H5 look bad because that it means it only sold well because fans were desperate.



Oh yeah, I'm still waiting for TotE here in America. I hope its good - HoF wasn't that great.
"A Guardian is always prepared." - Galio, the Sentinel's Sorrow

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 12 Oct 2007, 21:18

--------------------------
Jolly Joker wrote:>For the money Ubi is willing to pay for it, Nival's the best available<
Out of context this sounds like Ubi is paying dirt and Nival is the best of the cheap lot.
>there are very few developers out there with any TBS experience that can compete with the bid that Nival puts out to Ubisoft.<
This means that NIVAL is trying to do the game and will work for less than comparable companies because of that. Something else completely.
--------------------------

Methinks you took one too many marketing classes in college... i don't care how you spin something, it stays the same from an objective standpoint.

comparable companies = companies of teh same lot... which can be the cheap too.

--------------------------
The bottom line will be, when the dust has settled, that Nival delivered a top product IN THE END that sold well from the start
--------------------------

Britney Spears sells well... and she's crap on a stick.

But really, i bet that while it sold better then Ubi expected (which as you said is how they made teh budget... o ye of little faith) it's sales are not very spectacular for a game with it's graphics...

BTW, any sales figures anywhere i can look up?

--------------------------
Which leaves the question why Ubisoft should change the developer for H6.
--------------------------

that wasn't my request... pay more attention dammit.
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Tribes of the East is Out

Unread postby ThunderTitan » 12 Oct 2007, 21:29

>I did this because TT asked me to provide an example.<



IN THIS THREAD... because i was wondering why you brought it up... jeez.
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Re: Tribes of the East is Out

Unread postby PhoenixReborn » 12 Oct 2007, 21:48

ThunderTitan wrote:>I did this because TT asked me to provide an example.<



IN THIS THREAD... because i was wondering why you brought it up... jeez.
You'll just have to read back and figure it out.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 12 Oct 2007, 21:59

no, i think i got it just fine... wanted to make sure, that's all.
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Unread postby lotusreaver » 12 Oct 2007, 23:12

I had a quick question. Does the snow terrain have its own dedicated theme music now, or does it still share the grass terrain's theme?

I know it's not important in the grand scheme of things, but I'm a bit curious about it.

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 13 Oct 2007, 06:18

ThunderTitan wrote:--------------------------
Jolly Joker wrote:>For the money Ubi is willing to pay for it, Nival's the best available<
Out of context this sounds like Ubi is paying dirt and Nival is the best of the cheap lot.
>there are very few developers out there with any TBS experience that can compete with the bid that Nival puts out to Ubisoft.<
This means that NIVAL is trying to do the game and will work for less than comparable companies because of that. Something else completely.
--------------------------

Methinks you took one too many marketing classes in college... i don't care how you spin something, it stays the same from an objective standpoint.

comparable companies = companies of teh same lot... which can be the cheap too.
And me thinks you took one too few English classes in college. I don't care whether you are either unable to see not so subtle differences in phrasing and meaning or whether you are just too obstinate to admit it, but from any except your standpoint which is everything else than objective it was never something else than different.
--------------------------
ThunderTitan wrote:--------------------------
The bottom line will be, when the dust has settled, that Nival delivered a top product IN THE END that sold well from the start
--------------------------

Britney Spears sells well... and she's crap on a stick.

But really, i bet that while it sold better then Ubi expected (which as you said is how they made teh budget... o ye of little faith) it's sales are not very spectacular for a game with it's graphics...

BTW, any sales figures anywhere i can look up?
No point. No relevance. No connection. Why? I made no connection between H 5 being a top product and the thing selling well or do you see a "because" or something? No. In my quote these are two different and unconnected things - and if you read between the lines you may even note the top product IN THE END and the sold well FROM THE START.

Your point that Britney is crap and still sells is completely off the point and irrelevant therefore - and wrong at that: she may be crap on a stick, may have been so from the beginning, in fact, but that doesn't mean she can be a top product as well.
--------------------------
ThunderTitan wrote:
Which leaves the question why Ubisoft should change the developer for H6.
--------------------------
that wasn't my request... pay more attention dammit.
You gotta be joking. Who knows what your "requests" are with all your quoting and posting just for posting and quoting's sake.
ZZZzzzz....

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 13 Oct 2007, 19:02

Jolly Joker wrote:>And me thinks you took one too few English classes in college. I don't care whether you are either unable to see not so subtle differences in phrasing and meaning or whether you are just too obstinate to admit it, but from any except your standpoint which is everything else than objective it was never something else than different.<
Pls, taking english in college would more probably have hurt my english...

And in case you haven't noticed i put up the second quote to see if you found the same idea put in a more apologetic way better, and you did... even if teh idea is the same (Nival = best cheap choice...).
But hey, if killing 500.000 people is made worse or better depending on whether or not the US calls it genocide, then yeah, i do see the "not so subtle differences".


>I made no connection between H 5 being a top product and the thing selling well ote the top product IN or do you see a "because" or something?<
Sure... because saying it's a top product that sells well implies it sells well because of Fairies... Giant Fairies...

But fine, it sold well for no reason, and is a top product without any explanation except because you think so.


Jolly Joker wrote:>You gotta be joking. Who knows what your "requests" are with all your quoting and posting just for posting and quoting's sake.<
So you're arguing with me without paying attention to what i say? And i'm the one "quoting and posting just for posting and quoting's sake."
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 13 Oct 2007, 19:32

ThunderTitan wrote: And in case you haven't noticed i put up the second quote to see if you found the same idea put in a more apologetic way better, and you did... even if teh idea is the same (Nival = best cheap choice...).
You can repeat this another dozen times, it's neither the same not the same idea.
ThunderTitan wrote:
>I made no connection between H 5 being a top product and the thing selling well ote the top product IN or do you see a "because" or something?<
Sure... because saying it's a top product that sells well implies it sells well because of Fairies... Giant Fairies...

But fine, it sold well for no reason, and is a top product without any explanation except because you think so.
Umm, why did you mention Britney Spears, did you say?

Jolly Joker wrote:>You gotta be joking. Who knows what your "requests" are with all your quoting and posting just for posting and quoting's sake.<
So you're arguing with me without paying attention to what i say? And i'm the one "quoting and posting just for posting and quoting's sake."[/quote]
No, I'm not paying attention to what you may or may not REQUEST in all your quoting and arguing for argiuing's sake. Didn't I say that the first
time?
Say, TT, just what IS your point here in this thread for the last couple pages?
I mean, you said you don't request another developer. But my impression is - and correct me if I'm wrong - that you don't like Nival's Homm too much...
I mean, how about just making A STATEMENT for a change? You know, these things other people can pick afterwards into small shreds to quote and make some pointy remarks about them?
ZZZzzzz....

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 13 Oct 2007, 20:18

Jolly Joker wrote:>You can repeat this another dozen times, it's neither the same not the same idea.<
not in your world it seems... i mean even SirCharles agrees that his 2 quotes are the same: "Concerning that first quote that JJ said was an unfair quote...sorry. I now see what you meant by it."
>Umm, why did you mention Britney Spears, did you say?<
Obviously because i was crazy... and i forgot about the Giant Fairies.

Jolly Joker wrote:>No, I'm not paying attention to what you may or may not REQUEST in all your quoting and arguing for argiuing's sake. Didn't I say that the first
time?<
Let me guess... request and say are so different that you can pay attention to what i say but not what i request...


Jolly Joker wrote:>I mean, how about just making A STATEMENT for a change? You know, these things other people can pick afterwards into small shreds to quote and make some pointy remarks about them?<
What's the point, as you're not paying attention anyway...

I meant really, IT'S THE SAME IDEA isn't a statement for you?!

>>Say, TT, just what IS your point here in this thread for the last couple pages?<
Let's see... i quote something, you say it's unfair... then i quote something else which says the same thing, and you don't find it unfair... what could my point ever be?



>I mean, you said you don't request another developer. But my impression is - and correct me if I'm wrong - that you don't like Nival's Homm too much... <
I don't like Ubival's HoMM a whole lot...
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 13 Oct 2007, 21:07

ThunderTitan wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:>You can repeat this another dozen times, it's neither the same not the same idea.<
not in your world it seems... i mean even SirCharles agrees that his 2 quotes are the same: "Concerning that first quote that JJ said was an unfair quote...sorry. I now see what you meant by it."
YOU are not interested in what people MEAN. YOU quote what they SAY (and post). And rub it under their noses. So you may have a nice quote you can put a gimmick under. Which is exactly what you did here.
ThunderTitan wrote:
>Umm, why did you mention Britney Spears, did you say?<
Obviously because i was crazy... and i forgot about the Giant Fairies.
Hey, a statement. Ok, I stand corrected.
ThunderTitan wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:>No, I'm not paying attention to what you may or may not REQUEST in all your quoting and arguing for argiuing's sake. Didn't I say that the first
time?<
Let me guess... request and say are so different that you can pay attention to what i say but not what i request...
Right in one. That's because you make no statements. You SAY a lot, but what your point is - or your request - who knows?
I mean, does ANYONE know?
ThunderTitan wrote:
Jolly Joker wrote:>I mean, how about just making A STATEMENT for a change? You know, these things other people can pick afterwards into small shreds to quote and make some pointy remarks about them?<
What's the point, as you're not paying attention anyway...

I meant really, IT'S THE SAME IDEA isn't a statement for you?!
No, that's not a statement. That's a claim. I could say a wrong one, but I say, it's contested.
ThunderTitan wrote:
>>Say, TT, just what IS your point here in this thread for the last couple pages?<
Let's see... i quote something, you say it's unfair... then i quote something else which says the same thing, and you don't find it unfair... what could my point ever be?
Apart from that your second quote did NOT says the same thing... irrelevant. The question is: why did you quote Chuck in the first place? To make what point exactly?
ThunderTitan wrote:
>I mean, you said you don't request another developer. But my impression is - and correct me if I'm wrong - that you don't like Nival's Homm too much... <
I don't like Ubival's HoMM a whole lot...
Ok, TT, I admit I think that's a good one. :)
ZZZzzzz....


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