Tribes of the East Previews

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ywhtptgtfo
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Tribes of the East Previews

Unread postby ywhtptgtfo » 31 Jul 2007, 20:03

>It's good that you don't talk to mirrors then...



A retarded retort.



>Civilized cultures... really, you still using victorian era history books? Let's not even mention what their opinion of the americans was...



I believe you are missing the point. The original point was about how ridicules it is for a simple race of barbarians to possibly counter the technologies (in context of H5, magic) of an advanced race. Not very difficult to understand is it? The reference to civilized culture is just an analogy and cultural development is irrelevant because I was referring to a fixed time point.

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Re: Tribes of the East Previews

Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 31 Jul 2007, 20:14

ywhtptgtfo wrote:I believe you are missing the point. The original point was about how ridicules it is for a simple race of barbarians to possibly counter the technologies (in context of H5, magic) of an advanced race. Not very difficult to understand is it? The reference to civilized culture is just an analogy and cultural development is irrelevant because I was referring to a fixed time point.
You're right. It's completely rididculous. What's even more rididculous is that simple beasts like Unicorns, who can't even speak, can nullify the tech advanatge that magic is. We must send very angry letters to Ubival about this at once!
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Unread postby CloudRiderX » 31 Jul 2007, 21:41

"I've played lots of different games and I can't think of single expansion (at least for strategy game) that would/had add as much content as Tribe of the East is going to."



Somehow I'm not impressed. Lots of content doesn't actually mean the game will be good, but it usually helps. And, even though more content is usually bad for Nival(it gives them more chances to screw things up) I'm fairly confident TotE will be a good game.
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Unread postby ywhtptgtfo » 31 Jul 2007, 21:57

>You're right. It's completely rididculous. What's even more rididculous is that simple beasts like Unicorns, who can't even speak, can nullify the tech advanatge that magic is. We must send very angry letters to Ubival about this at once!



Why should any simple criticism be viewed as an emotional complaint? The difference between your example and the Orcs is that, the Unicorns are born with the power and the Orcs 'invented' those powers through. You can of course argue that the Orcs are more magically inclined than the Mages and that they can easily discover something about magic that the Mages are not aware of after centuries of research.

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Tribes of the East Previews

Unread postby Moragauth » 31 Jul 2007, 22:35

I had no idea just how much WH influenced HoMM's Dungeon. Then again, I have little knowledge of WH to begin with. I will admit that I am glad that Nival decided to copy it. :) Thanks for the links TT.



Gaidal, simple spell resistance is one thing. Actively bending magic is another. It requires skill. Experienced spellcasters could render such powers null.

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Re: Tribes of the East Previews

Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 01 Aug 2007, 06:48

Moragauth wrote:Gaidal, simple spell resistance is one thing. Actively bending magic is another. It requires skill. Experienced spellcasters could render such powers null.
Oh, so the ability to totally supress something is easy but something that bends it is hard. Right. Gotcha.
ywhtptgtfo wrote:The difference between your example and the Orcs is that, the Unicorns are born with the power and the Orcs 'invented' those powers through
Who says that it isn't an innate ability of the orcs that they've honed? They might not even understand how it works, just that it does work.
Last edited by Gaidal Cain on 01 Aug 2007, 12:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 01 Aug 2007, 08:08

Does it even make sense to discuss it? I mean, there is no scientific theory of magic and spellcasting, and many things are doubtful or could be imagined otherwise.
In any case I fail to see solid reasons for statements like "Wizards should be able to... be stronger than... magic should be this or that" and so on, especially when it isn't known what's really happening with the Orcs.
ZZZzzzz....

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Unread postby Moragauth » 01 Aug 2007, 11:21

"Oh, so the ability to totally supress something is easy but something that bends it is hard. Right. Cotcha.



The difference between your example and the Orcs is that, the Unicorns are born with the power and the Orcs 'invented' those powers through



Who says that it isn't an innate ability of the orcs that they've honed? They might not even understand how it works, just that it does work."



First of all, it's spellt "gotcha", and the puerile sarcasm is unnecessary. Secondly, yes, suppressing and bending magic is more difficult, at least if we go by the rules employed by most game worlds. E.g in D&D it is based off the Spellcraft skill. SR is a passive shield, bending magic usually requires fiddling with the caster's workings. Sure the Orcs may have an innate ability, but then why have the all-powerful Wizards not learnt to subvert it as Dungeon has with spell resistance?



"Does it even make sense to discuss it? I mean, there is no scientific theory of magic and spellcasting"



It does. Fantasy games, unless they say otherwise, tend to borrow heavily from D&D rules, which do have a scientific theory of magic, of sorts. It certainly makes little sense for Wizards to enjoy mastery over arcane powers, and yet not figure out a way to get around the magical devices of the orcs. Now if Nival can part with its history and provide a nice explanation of how this is all possible, all the better.
Edited on Wed, Aug 01 2007, 07:36 by Moragauth

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Re: Tribes of the East Previews

Unread postby Jolly Joker » 01 Aug 2007, 11:37

Moragauth wrote:
"Does it even make sense to discuss it? I mean, there is no scientific theory of magic and spellcasting"



It does. Fantasy games, unless they say otherwise, tend to borrow heavily from D&D rules, which do have a scientific theory of magic, of sorts. It certainly makes little sense for Wizards to enjoy mastery over arcane powers, and yet not figure out a way to get around the magical devices of the orcs. Now if Nival can part with its history and provide a nice explanation of how this is all possible, all the better.
Edited on Wed, Aug 01 2007, 07:23 by Moragauth
Who cares about D&D rules? There is no rule to borrow from them either.
Now, what the Orcs may LEARN are skills to inhibit magic - the same way as others may learn skills that allow them to learn certain spells and cast them with a certain efficiency and proficiency. What can possibly be wrong with that? Consequently, if you play Orcs against Wizards, the Orcs may opt to learn up to 4 magic inhibiting skills to make sure to inhibit all the magic the Wizards can possibly learn, but that leaves not much else, especially when considering that it takes 6 hero levels to make use of all possibilities of the Orcs to inhibit a school of magic - which still won't suppress it completely, mind you.
It's basically the same thing than a Knight learning Attack - and then meets a Wizard who has learned Defense. No one ever complained about the Knight should find a way around the Defense skill of the Wizard (which inhibits the effectiveness of the Knight's attack).
ZZZzzzz....

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Re: Tribes of the East Previews

Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 01 Aug 2007, 12:07

Moragauth wrote:First of all, it's spellt "gotcha", and the puerile sarcasm is unnecessary.
Yeah, becuase nitpciking is so much better...
Secondly, yes, suppressing and bending magic is more difficult, at least if we go by the rules employed by most game worlds.
Since thi isn't "blendworld", were every magical world out there has been mixed into one, I don't see why we should care for other games. In most other games, the world wasn't created by two dragons. Does that mean we should scrap the current mythos?
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Unread postby CloudRiderX » 01 Aug 2007, 13:01

"Gaidal, simple spell resistance is one thing. Actively bending magic is another. It requires skill. Experienced spellcasters could render such powers null."



Spell resistance is usually a passive ability that a creature cannot control. So the fact that it can totally supress magic used on it, which would normally be difficult, is irrelevant, because it is not choosing to do it itself. Spellcasting, however, is purely based on choice, so there is skill involved.
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Unread postby Wraith » 01 Aug 2007, 13:15

miniatures LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLL

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 01 Aug 2007, 13:34

don't star foaming at the mouth from all that laughter... it's still plagiarism if you use a computer.
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Unread postby rdeford » 01 Aug 2007, 14:23

I think this thread had degenerated to the point where we should either make a fresh (i.e., positive) start or abandon it.
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Re: Tribes of the East Previews

Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 01 Aug 2007, 16:58

Jolly Joker wrote:Now, what the Orcs may LEARN are skills to inhibit magic - the same way as others may learn skills that allow them to learn certain spells and cast them with a certain efficiency and proficiency. What can possibly be wrong with that? Consequently, if you play Orcs against Wizards, the Orcs may opt to learn up to 4 magic inhibiting skills to make sure to inhibit all the magic the Wizards can possibly learn, but that leaves not much else, especially when considering that it takes 6 hero levels to make use of all possibilities of the Orcs to inhibit a school of magic - which still won't suppress it completely, mind you.
It's basically the same thing than a Knight learning Attack - and then meets a Wizard who has learned Defense. No one ever complained about the Knight should find a way around the Defense skill of the Wizard (which inhibits the effectiveness of the Knight's attack).
Well, it is hard to comment much on their abilities since we don't know all the details yet. I am very concerned but obviously I can't make a final judgement until we get more information.

Wizards are totally dependant on magic. Their primary attribute is knowledge and secondary is spell power. They get little attack or defence. Their creatures are weak. If their magic is suppressed so that their spells are much less effective (they already have poor spell power) they will be quite easy to defeat.

Meanwhile, the orcs will be casting their nonspell spells (warcries) and making use of the racial bloodlust to help their toops and the using the spells of their Orc Shamans (shamans get slow and haste eh? The shamans aren't orcs? How come they cast spells when orcs aren't supposed to be able to cast spells?) I would gladly trade the useless genies random spell ability for slow and haste.

I guess the question is going to be just how much the orcs can suppress magic.

Furthur, their mage guild specializes in summoning and light. They may or may not get useful spells in those schools or in other schools and the library is not always easy to build to access those other spells.

So my initial thought is that the orcs are going to wax the floor with races that depend on spells, especially with the wizards. Of course Nival could suprise me and do a good job of balancing, but if it is not pretty much balanced on initial release it will not be balanced for a looooong time since they are taking so very long between patches and will have yet another version to make patches for.

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 01 Aug 2007, 17:55

I think, you simply ignore the reality of the game here.
Imagine you are playing the Orcs against a Wizard. First of all you are in trouble with the schools as such. Light and Summoning, sure, but you may see a surprise in Destructive due to the new Gargoyles and Golems, MotW and so on, and combined with Sorcery that may be messy. Dark Magic is pretty effective as well, so the question is not what the Wizard may have ( you won't know) the question is what would hurt most if he had it.

HOWEVER, the skills the Orc hero has to learn won't be of use in all stages of the game EXECPT that last one (as opposed to the MAGIC skills of the others) with the sole exception of destructive spells when facing Druids, Mages, Pit Lords, and Water Elementals, so it would be a bad choice to pick them in the beginning instead of the more mundane skills with the more mundane abilities.
ZZZzzzz....

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Unread postby Moragauth » 01 Aug 2007, 21:48

Gaidal:

"Yeah, becuase nitpciking is so much better..."



It's called constructive criticism. :)



"Secondly, yes, suppressing and bending magic is more difficult, at least if we go by the rules employed by most game worlds. "



Good, we agree.



"Since thi isn't "blendworld", were every magical world out there has been mixed into one, I don't see why we should care for other games. In most other games, the world wasn't created by two dragons. Does that mean we should scrap the current mythos?"



The current mythos has no coherent positions to begin with! That is what I am getting at. It just throws in a bunch of powers together, ad hoc. It would be nice if Nival could explain how this all fits in.



Cloudrider:

"Spell resistance is usually a passive ability that a creature cannot control. So the fact that it can totally supress magic used on it, which would normally be difficult, is irrelevant, because it is not choosing to do it itself. Spellcasting, however, is purely based on choice, so there is skill involved."



Yes, that is my point.



@GOW:



Yes, Wizards can learn defence and its associated perks. So can the Knight learn Offense to overcome it. It would be useful if skills like Sorcery were reworked to deal with anti-magic powers. I also hope that the Orcs are balanced well. Academy and Necropolis will suffer otherwise - Dungeon not so much, since it has a strong might component and it has its own tricks when it comes to anti-magic.
Edited on Wed, Aug 01 2007, 17:51 by Moragauth

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Re: Tribes of the East Previews

Unread postby Gaidal Cain » 02 Aug 2007, 06:21

Moragauth wrote:"Secondly, yes, suppressing and bending magic is more difficult, at least if we go by the rules employed by most game worlds. "

Good, we agree.
That was a Quote. It's not my fault you're not reading this on the forum proper and can't see it
The current mythos has no coherent positions to begin with! That is what I am getting at. It just throws in a bunch of powers together, ad hoc. It would be nice if Nival could explain how this all fits in.
I don't see how "coherent magical theory" is a requirment. Sure, it's nice, but since Ubival doesn't seem to wish to go deeper into that respect (which NWC didn't either!), I don't see the problem.
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Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 02 Aug 2007, 06:36

Jolly Joker wrote:I think, you simply ignore the reality of the game here.
Imagine you are playing the Orcs against a Wizard. First of all you are in trouble with the schools as such. Light and Summoning, sure, but you may see a surprise in Destructive due to the new Gargoyles and Golems, MotW and so on, and combined with Sorcery that may be messy. Dark Magic is pretty effective as well, so the question is not what the Wizard may have ( you won't know) the question is what would hurt most if he had it.

HOWEVER, the skills the Orc hero has to learn won't be of use in all stages of the game EXECPT that last one (as opposed to the MAGIC skills of the others) with the sole exception of destructive spells when facing Druids, Mages, Pit Lords, and Water Elementals, so it would be a bad choice to pick them in the beginning instead of the more mundane skills with the more mundane abilities.
Well, I don't want to argue about it too much before the game actually comes out since I don't have the full picture, but the picture I do have concerns me. It would be nice if Ubi would go ahead and post the rest of the info about the orcs. If late Sept is the release date they will have to be done with balancing by the first week of Sept, it would seem, for the game to go gold and be put on CDs/DVDs and shipped.

The orcs do get magic through the orc shaman (haste/slow) and through the war cries (although they aren't called spells) and blood lust. And I suspect their creatures are going to be somewhat more mighty than the wizard's.

And the gamespy review said that the orcs can totally block some magic. That is a cause for great concern.
As Orc leaders level up, they'll gain access to special "Shatter" abilities that weaken or even altogether block certain kinds of magic. Enough money and sacrificial victims on the altar and I had enough "Shatter Magic" levels on my hero that I was able to run over a bunch of powerful human mages like they were just a group of old guys in silly robes.
And the new gargoyle you mentioned are really not going to help the academy at all. The gargoyles are a danger to academy troops when close to them (although the orcs seemingly can't take advantage of that weakness) and will perish quickly when they charge the enemy. Not to mention that the wizard may not even have any good destructive spells. The new golems are weaker and will not be useful against might factions. His special will certainly not help the academy at all against the orcs.

Anywazzz, my current opinion is based on the information that I currently have. Maybe things will appear differently when more information is realeased. The game is not likely to be changed much/quickly once it is released, so now is the time to voice concerns about balance.

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Unread postby Jolly Joker » 02 Aug 2007, 06:44

I can repeat only that you have to consider the fact that all those 4 Shatter Magic skill PLUS one of the racial abilities that will decrease enemy spell power depending on the Orc hero's own will be of NO use whatsoever in the normal course of the game - (with the exception of Shatter Destructive against a maximum of 7 different creatures).

Frankly, with the need to be offensive and the lack of a medium shooter you'll probably need defense more than anything else while attack will obviously pretty important as well and Luck, Lesdership and Logistics can't hurt. That means, you have easy picks which will make your army a hell of a lot deadlier all the time and not only later on in one or two fights (albeit crucial).

What that means is, the right time to get and develop a Shatter skill is probably around the start of the mid game, when hero and army are already good enough to take out virtually every neutral, which means your hero might be around level 10 at that time. That doesn't leave a lot of room and in the best of cases you may be able to get 2 Shatter skills (lucky if it's those you want), halfway complete or one totally complete.

Against the Dungeon this leads to a fairly easy Shatter Destructive pick, but on the other hand, if you are Dungeon you may do yourself a favor and go for Summoning then (even additionally).

So the main thing to keep in mind here is that the Orc abilities are NOT natural or part of the racial - they have to sacrifice other skills for them and they won't be of use otherwise. Think about it - it's a pretty high price to pay. It may work out if you out-guess your opponent or simply be lucky, but you may end with a completely wasted skill as well.

However, how are you going to guard against the Wizards? You may consider taking indeed 2 Shatter skills. But I think I've yet to play an Academy game where I had Light AND Summoning and then no 3rd magic skill. You need the Library for the Rakshasas and they are a pretty important unit, imo, GOW.

So for one of the 7 races playing AGAINST the Orcs it's always about either taking MORE magic skills than you may normally be inclined to or taking an UNUSUAL one (depending on your guild, spell shrines in the vicinity and the availability of the unusual magic skill). For the Orcs, though, it's taking something on a guess - a ward, if you want to. They can decide, I don't want the Wizards to cast Light Magic effectively and "ward" themselves against Light (if they get the skill offered), but that might simply lead to more Illusions and Phoenixes and Firewalls being cast - or some Rage or Blind or Confusion.

Lastly, the good thing is that you'll see more unusual heroes developed against the Orcs - Dark Knights, for example, Destructive Necromancers...

Oh, and no, they cannot block magic completely. I should know that because I know what the skills do.
ZZZzzzz....


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