Tribes of the East: interview & new screens

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PhoenixReborn
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Re: ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby PhoenixReborn » May 31 2007, 19:46

King Imp wrote:Is there really much to think about now that you have the choice of both? To me there isn't. I'm going out with a stack each of both Tier 7 units, a stack each of both Tier 6 units, a stack each of both Tier 4 or 5 units (depending on the faction) and then and only then will I probably have to make a decision on which unit will round out my 7th stack.


It's not as if the growth will be double. Do you normally split your Titans Rakshasa's and Djinn into two equal stacks?

Even if the costs of the level 7 are lowered, the game still favors levels 4-6 creature density.

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Re: ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby MistWeaver » May 31 2007, 19:50

King Imp wrote:Is there really much to think about now that you have the choice of both? To me there isn't. I'm going out with a stack each of both Tier 7 units, a stack each of both Tier 6 units, a stack each of both Tier 4 or 5 units (depending on the faction) and then and only then will I probably have to make a decision on which unit will round out my 7th stack.


Just half of population ? That will be quickest way to loose.

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ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby Arzang » May 31 2007, 19:59

- There will be WAIT button. But when - is going to be surprise.

what a ****ing joke. I hope they can get serious before the launch of homm 7. if there was some sort of private joke I missed then I'm sorry.

but most likely nival just sucks fishass and don't know the slightest crap about making games. donkeys.

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Re: ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby Gaidal Cain » May 31 2007, 20:28

King Imp wrote:Now, with both upgrades being available no matter what, there isn't as much strategy as you know beforehand that you will be able to get more of the same units no matter what.


Actually, being able to adapt can make for more strategy, not less. Chaning the creature choices midway to accomodate for a different enemy sounds like a strategic choice to me, especially if there is some cost involved so as to not make the switch too easy.
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ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby Kareeah Indaga » May 31 2007, 23:21

"I don't think it bodes well for the series when the developer and the publisher are obviously not on the same page. "

Seconded.
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Re: ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Jun 1 2007, 0:41

fjog wrote:Well, I for one am quite disappointed that both upgrades would be available at the same time! There would be a much deeper strategy if you were forced to choose one of the upgrades in your town.



Even if you conquered another town which had chosen other upgrades than you, you could just caravan them back and forth (if they introduce this, and not just for dwellings?) between your towns and change them to your preferred upgrade.



I really hate that middle way solution in which you can do both at once, it’s too simple.
Edited on Thu, May 31 2007, 12:10 by fjog


I am disappointed also. You should have have to chose one upgrade or the other and go with it for the whole game. Or have an option to demolish the upgraded building and build a building appropriate for the other upgrade.

I also don't like being to change the current upgrade to the alternate upgrade and vice versa. IMHO it makes no sense. For example, changing a sprite to a dryad for a few battles and then the dryad changing back to a sprite. Please.

I wonder if there is a fee for converting between the different upgrades. I sure hope so, and I hope it is expensive (at least half of the cost of the creature.) The different upgrades use different weapons, skills, spells, ect so you would have to reoutfit and retrain the current creatures, which should cost money/resources.

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ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby kingcranium14 » Jun 1 2007, 0:42

On the first screenshot, those neutrals look like inquisitors, except whitish. Does this mean that Haven WILL have alternate upgrades other than the Renegades?
Will we still be able to use the Renegades?

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ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby Moragauth » Jun 1 2007, 2:01

I am hoping that Ubival changes its mind and makes only one upgrade at a time possible (of course, with the luxury of being able to change which one it is if you aren't satisfied, by demolishing the building as Wizard said).

Another thing I hope is that Eruina's special also applies to the Shadow Mistress - perhaps giving her a free attack against an adjacent foe without retaliation.

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ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby Crosis » Jun 1 2007, 5:56

For the alternate upgrades, I think it'd be best to have them as separate buildings, but both can be built at once (with a combined pool of troops per week, i.e. you can buy any combination of Imps, Familiars, and Quasits that add to 26, and the Imps can be upgraded later to either). Being able to choose either from a single building doesn't make much sense, but it's not a major problem.

As for converting between them, I'd hope that the cost is about the price of upgrading from the basic creature (20 gold for Familiar to Quasit or vice versa, for instance), otherwise it's too easy. Switching back and forth should be expensive enough to make it a difficult decision - would you rather have two weeks' worth of a lineup geared specifically to give your remaining opponent fits and spend this week's cash changing the units over, or three weeks' worth of a lineup that was targeted at your nearer enemy (who is no longer a concern) and isn't as well suited to exploit the weaknesses of the surviving opponent? If they balance it right, being able to convert upgraded troops back and forth between the different upgrades could be very interesting. (And if they make it too hard, that's no worse than not letting you do it at all, and I'd be fine with that as long as the towns don't lock you into producing one of the two permanently.) If they make it too cheap, it's bad.
Edited on Fri, Jun 01 2007, 01:57 by Crosis

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ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby fjog » Jun 1 2007, 10:38

Jolly Joker at 2007-05-31 15:05 wrote:
I think you make an error here. This is neither Disciples nor Heroes IV. The main thing to keep in mind is that you'll build most BASIC higher level buildings BEFORE the upgrades. This is different in Disciples, for example, or even in Heroes IV, because there are not so many builds and if you decide on one it has immediate consequences for your next build.

With the alternate upgrades as they are implemented now the strategy lies in PICKING 7 (or less) out of 14 now (or even 21 depending on game length). The BUILDING isn't the interesting point here. Think about it.


Well, this is EXACTLY where the problem lies! Let’s take sylvan for an example; you choose Master Hunters and some other upgrades, you sweep the adventure map but encounters a fully upgraded castle. In your scenario you simply wander back to your own town and change the Master Hunters to Sharpshooters, and pick the opposing Castle to pieces.

If you where stock with your choice of upgrade you had to stick with your Master Hunters, which wouldn’t be quite as effective against the castle.

Think about that.

Besides this, I’m pretty confident that switching between the upgrades isn't free, the question is if they make the price steep enough to make it strategic choice. Anything other than this would be plain stupid!
Edited on Fri, Jun 01 2007, 06:45 by fjog

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Postby Jolly Joker » Jun 1 2007, 11:03

You can "retrain" upgrades for a fee.

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Re: ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby PhoenixReborn » Jun 1 2007, 11:16

fjog wrote:you sweep the adventure map but encounters a fully upgraded castle. In your scenario you simply wander back to your own town and change the Master Hunters to Sharpshooters, and pick the opposing Castle to pieces.

If you where stock with your choice of upgrade you had to stick with your Master Hunters, which wouldn’t be quite as effective against the castle.


I certainly wouldn't go back to my castle, it takes too long. I might leave my castle with sharpshooters with the intention of taking a castle, but I'm not going to go all the way back, besides ranged units are poor in a siege.

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ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby Orfinn » Jun 1 2007, 12:02

Would a cost of 10 gold pr unit at tier 1 to retrain to another upg.
20 for tier 2 and so on, work? Or would that be too cheap?
Edited on Fri, Jun 01 2007, 08:02 by Orfinn

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ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby atma6 » Jun 1 2007, 16:12

I think being able to adapt is far more strategic for gameplay. Realy sure needing to make a decision can be called that, but it would often be a shot in the dark as to who you are going to be facing. This way you don't blindly hope you pick the right one, because you can adapt to meet the situation.

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Postby King Imp » Jun 1 2007, 18:36

Jolly Joker wrote:You can "retrain" upgrades for a fee.


If I'm understanding this correctly, then this is just dumb (not you JJ, the idea).

All you have to do now is buy the upgrade that costs less and then if you want the other, you will be able to train them for free. How is that thinking things through while in development?

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Postby Jolly Joker » Jun 1 2007, 18:48

What makes you think that you'll be able to retrain for free? I wrote for a FEE. A fee as in it will cost money.

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Postby King Imp » Jun 1 2007, 18:53

Jolly Joker wrote:What makes you think that you'll be able to retrain for free? I wrote for a FEE. A fee as in it will cost money.


Wow! My sincere apologies on that one.

I don't know what happened, but for some reason when I saw the word fee, I read it as free. Sorry.

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ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby PhoenixReborn » Jun 1 2007, 23:14

I also read it as free, as you can see by my post on the ubi forum. So you're not alone king imp. So it makes sense now, a fee to re-train the unit. I like the way it's working.

Remember that many found the exclusion system in h iv frustrating because it meant fewer units not more units.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jun 1 2007, 23:44

And in H3 they left one in the castle...
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ToE: Interview & New Screens

Postby fjog » Jun 2 2007, 2:46

Jolly Joker at 2007-06-01 07:03 wrote:

You can "retrain" upgrades for a fee.

You got to be kidding me! As I said; of course there will be a fee to change between the upgrades, but that is beside the point! Cut to the bone, the essential issue here is whether the upgrades are optional or permanent.

The optional way is way less strategic, as you at any point would have the option to change your army to the most optimal composition, depending on the situation (in a manner of speaking).

The permanent way you would have to adept and use different approaches and strategies to different enemies instead of just choosing your optimal upgrades to do the job.

In my opinion the latter is by far the most challenging and fun way to play! Think about that (instead of, let’s say, having about 2-3 ultimate strategies, you absolutely have to be much more adaptive as no strategy is guarantied a success).


PhoenixReborn at 2007-06-01 07:16 wrote:

you sweep the adventure map but encounters a fully upgraded castle. In your scenario you simply wander back to your own town and change the Master Hunters to Sharpshooters, and pick the opposing Castle to pieces.

If you where stock with your choice of upgrade you had to stick with your Master Hunters, which wouldn’t be quite as effective against the castle.


I certainly wouldn't go back to my castle, it takes too long. I might leave my castle with sharpshooters with the intention of taking a castle, but I'm not going to go all the way back, besides ranged units are poor in a siege.


You prove my point, as you have both options! As a backup you got the sharpshooters to do the dirty work instead of loosing more Master Hunters as you would have!

Anyway, as far as I stand, the permanent way is ultimately the most challenging way to play the game! And if you are up to it, prove me wrong :)


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