The Dark Misogynist

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WretchedGnu
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The Dark Misogynist

Unread postby WretchedGnu » 18 Dec 2006, 06:03

It's a simple truth that the mythology behind Succubi is inherently sexist, as any historian will tell you. It comes from the same tradition by which Dante figures the Second Circle of Hell (I think it's the second) -- which represents those who suffer from the sin of Lust -- as being populated almost entirely by women.



Now, you may say, yes, well, that's just the way the culture was back then. But the obvious response is: Why do we need to perpetuate that mythology and that culture? Since it's all fantasy, why not just come up with a new cosmology?



To those who have argued that "If the hero were a woman and the gazed-upon figures male, would the game be sexist then" -- you're obviously missing the point. The point is that the game would *never* put you in the position of a female gazing upon the sexual enticements of males. That's the point. The game caters to male fantasy only -- so people rightly ask, why?

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Unread postby Mytical » 18 Dec 2006, 06:16

Well I wont get into incubus, but for what it is worth here is my perspective. I have long ago realized that games were designed mostly for men. Take for instance DOA Volleyball, an obvious game for men. Clearly sexist, obviously designed for men, and it objectifies women. I also enjoyed playing it. Now I have not played DM, but can you honestly compair it to a game such as the above? I think the answer would be no. Do I enjoy the objectification of women? No. ,I would love to see some more stronger females in games who are independant, strong, and the actual heroes (and not just support). But unless DM has them running arround in bikini's, with no personality at all, allows you to take photos of them in provocative poses, or worse...at least you can say one thing. It is better then SOME games out there (I won't even mention Grand Theft Auto (any take your pick)). People are going to PC themselves to death one day..but that is another post for another day.
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Re: The Dark Misogynist

Unread postby ThunderTitan » 18 Dec 2006, 12:15

WretchedGnu wrote:which represents those who suffer from the sin of Lust -- as being populated almost entirely by women.
He'd wish....
WretchedGnu wrote: The point is that the game would *never* put you in the position of a female gazing upon the sexual enticements of males. That's the point. The game caters to male fantasy only -- so people rightly ask, why?
Coz males make up most of the customers?!


And the Succubus and Incubus were one demon that took 2 forms.... :devil:


And aren't the chick in DoA martial artists?! Scantly clad women playing volleyball isn't sexist per se...
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Unread postby Meandor » 18 Dec 2006, 15:22

Coz males make up most of the customers?!
In other words, males are sexists?
...

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 18 Dec 2006, 16:15

Meandor wrote: In other words, males are sexists?
Yes,and women are saints.Of course thats not what it means,but it means that our society was male dominated for thousands of years,yet we expect it to turn completelly around in just a couple of hundred years?

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 18 Dec 2006, 18:46

I doubt that even in the most equalitarian society males won't want to see slutty women on their PC and not other horny males. Add a Hetero somewhere in there for fairness....
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WretchedGnu
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The Dark Misogynist

Unread postby WretchedGnu » 18 Dec 2006, 18:56

Speak for yourself, boyo. The majority of game players may be male, but that doesn't mean that they're pathetic booby-obsessed adolescents. Adult males only find these adolescent fantasies -- which you see in many games -- just sad. When people grow up and meet real women, they'll understand what I'm talking about.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 18 Dec 2006, 19:22

Yeah, respecting women is a hallmark of adults.... that's why stripbars and the porn industry exist.


And you misunderstood... i said that males would rather see a woman in a sexy pose then a man, which doesn't really have anything to do with DL's point. The stupidity of the sitution is a completly different thing.
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The Dark Misogynist

Unread postby CloudRiderX » 18 Dec 2006, 20:05

"The majority of game players may be male, but that doesn't mean that they're pathetic booby-obsessed adolescents."



(sniff)I'm not pathetic or booby-obsessed. :(
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Re: The Dark Misogynist

Unread postby Derek » 18 Dec 2006, 20:27

DaemianLucifer wrote:Sure and batman shows how having a childhood trauma can change your life forever :rolleyes:
You know, when I first read this I laughed out loud. I mean, this is such an obvious claim that could be made about Batman(did you even watch Tim Burton's films?). If ThunderTitan or someone else had posted this I would have thought they were screwing with me, but you...well, I now know you do not even have the slightest idea of what textual analysis is. Because you do not even have basic knowledge, you seem to to think texts can only have one point, I think it not even worth my time to discuss it.

Nearly EVERY Batman character was influenced by past events, their childhood in many cases, and if greatly changes their attitudes. The comic plays with the idea of a dark knight, a knight being something children dream of and fantasize about. Bruce Wayne offers a skewed version of this dream due to the trauma that his childhood gave him. To further show that you have no idea what you're talking about, I have taken the liberty of posting about many Batman characters and how their childhood/past events influenced their life. Although in some cases it may seem like a stretch, it is one of the many points that the comic is making. Wikipedia should be checked before making outrageous claims like that...

Alphabetically:

Bane: "Born to serve the life sentence of his father, Bane's childhood and early adult life were spent behind the walls of Peña Duro, an infamous prison located in Santa Prisca."--Hmmm....

Joker: Too many backstories, many are likely a lie. However, consider he went really insane because of events that he could not control.

Killer Croc: "Waylon Jones was born with a medical condition that is causing him to grow progressively more like a crocodile, hence his name. In the comics, his intelligence level has been portrayed differently, varying from competent schemer to berserk monster."--Maybe a stretch, but he's still suffering from events he had no control over.

Mr. Freeze: The new story, now accepted, offers a sympathetic Mr. Freeze.
"Batman follows a strange trail of heists pulled at various GothCorp offices, all by the same man, a strange figure clad in a powerful suit with what seems to be an "ice gun", an artifact that fires a beam capable of freezing anything into a thick sheet of solid ice. Batman pieces together the stolen items and discovers what the mysterious man is building: a massive cannon capable of casting a magnified ice beam, and that it is complete save for a single vital piece of equipment from GothCorp. Acting rapidly, he arrives at the GothCorp offices to witness the theft, to be frozen into an icicle, as the perpetrators of the theft leave behind one of their own when Batman escapes, frozen solid by the effect of "Mr. Freeze"'s gun. Batman helps the man, and pieces together the true identity of Mr. Freeze — a former cryogenics scientist for GothCorp, Victor Fries, who was apparently killed in a freak laboratory accident while trying to help his dying wife Nora, in which he was rendered unable to live outside of a sub-zero condition, caused by ruthless, mercenary GothCorp CEO Ferris Boyle. Bruce Wayne talks to Boyle, who seems not to have any regrets about his behavior, or any lament for Fries' demise.

During a dinner where Boyle was to be presented with a humanitarian prize, Freeze arrives, his cannon completed. He fires the immense ice gun at the building, slowly freezing it completely. As Batman attacks the cannon, Mr. Freeze takes a shortcut to the floor where Boyle is. There, he freezes him to the waist and nearly makes a block of ice out of him before Batman foils his plan, shattering his specialized helmet by dousing it with hot chicken soup to induce thermal shock. With Freeze subdued, Batman presents evidence of Boyle's crime to guarantee his arrest.

Freeze is taken to Arkham Asylum, in a special cell designed to hold him, while he laments above the same ballerina effigy he pondered over at the start of the episode, wondering whether his beloved has forgiven him or not."--The sickness of his wife was outside his control; the past catches up with him and turns him to crime.

The Penguin: "Born Oswald Cobblepot, The Penguin was teased very much in childhood due to his short stature, obesity, and bird-like nose. These traits made him an outcast in his rich, high society family. Their rejection drove him to become a violent criminal. One story claims the Penguin and his mother owned a pet shop, and he became a criminal after neighborhood bullies murdered all the animals in the shop, including his beloved birds. In keeping with his family's tradition of wealth, the Penguin lives a life of crime and evil, yet executes it with his own self-proclaimed class and style. He commits crimes with the theme of the various birds he loves."--Yeah, lousy childhood...

Poison Ivy:"Dr. Pamela Lillian Isley, a promising botanist from Seattle, was seduced by Marc LeGrande into assisting him with the theft of an Egyptian artifact containing ancient herbs. Fearing she would implicate him in the theft, he attempted to poison her with the herbs, which were deadly and untraceable. She survived this murder attempt and discovered she had acquired an immunity to all natural toxins and diseases."

or

"Post-Crisis, her origins were revised. Pamela Isley grew up wealthy with emotionally distant parents. She later studied advanced botanical biochemistry at university with Alec Holland under Dr. Jason Woodrue. Isley, a timid, awkward, shrinking violet, was easily seduced by her professor. Woodrue injected Isley with poisons and toxins as an experiment, causing her transformation.[1] She nearly died twice as a result from these poisonings, driving her insane. The testing also made her barren, and she has treated her plants as children, mothering them ever since."--Both work, the second more so, but the first still is about her being unable to escape events she was unable to control: driving her insane.

Ra's al Ghul: "Ra's discovered the secret of the Lazarus Pit, and he saved a dying prince by lowering him into it. The prince, who was sadistic to begin with, was driven completely insane by the Lazarus Pit. He proceeded to strangle Sora, on whom he had already had his eye for some time. The ruler of the city, unwilling to admit to himself his son's culpability, declared Ra's guilty of the crime and sentenced him to a slow and torturous death in a cage with Sora's corpse."--Condemned without trial.

Riddler: "Issue #2 of non-canon Justice by Alex Ross suggests that his father physically abused him, which left him with a compulsion to tell the truth (materializing through the telling of riddles), as well as a desire to prove his superiority by outwitting everyone around him. Having been forced to tell the truth during a time of the rebellious adolescence stage caused him to become twisted."--Again...

Robin: "Richard John "Dick" Grayson was an eight-year-old circus acrobat, the youngest of a family act called the "Flying Graysons". A gangster named Boss Zucco (loosely based on actor Edward G. Robinson's Little Caesar character) had been extorting money from the circus and killed Grayson's parents, John and Mary, by sabotaging their trapeze equipment as a warning against defiance. Batman investigated the crime and, as his alter ego millionaire Bruce Wayne, had Dick put under his custody as a legal ward (later adopting him as his son). Batman rigorously trained the boy, teaching him physical, fighting and detective skills. Together they investigated Zucco and collected the evidence needed to bring him to justice."--Yep.

Scarecrow: "The Scarecrow was first introduced as Jonathan Crane, a professor of psychology at Gotham University, who turned to crime after he was fired; an expert in the psychology of fear, he had fired a gun in a classroom full of students to illustrate a point. The only thing revealed about his early life was that, as a child, he had liked to frighten birds."

or

"His origin story was greatly expanded in the 1989 graphic novel Batman/Scarecrow #1, part of the Batman: Year One continuity. In the novel, he becomes obsessed with fear and revenge from being bullied throughout his childhood and adolescence for his lanky frame and bookish nature. He commits his first murder at the age of 18 by brandishing a gun in his high school parking lot during the senior prom. Dressed in the ghoulish scarecrow costume that would later become his trademark, Crane causes the head bully, Bo Griggs, and his girlfriend, Sherry Squires, to have an automobile accident which paralyzes Griggs and kills Squires. Crane then discovers a savage delight in literally frightening people to death."--Both work, second more so. Even the first one he is condemned for a non-crime, in a sense he is a victim.

Two Face: "His campaign against crime ended tragically when "Boss" Maroni, a crime boss whom Dent was prosecuting, threw vitriol (sulfuric acid) in Dent's face, horribly scarring his left hand and the left half of his face while leaving the other half undamaged. Tormented by his hideous reflection, Dent scarred one side of Maroni's two-headed coin and let tosses of the coin decide whether he acted for good or evil in any situation.

The comic book limited series Batman: The Long Halloween elaborated on these events, with some changes. In it, Dent, Commissioner James Gordon, and Batman forged an alliance to rid Gotham City of crime. Mafia chieftain Sal "The Boss" Maroni was still the criminal who disfigured Dent. Dent gets his trademark coin from his abusive father, who is referred to as being in some form of mental institution (his relationship with his father was earlier introduced in Batman Annual #14). Gilda, who had been Dent's fiancée back in Detective Comics #66 and 68 (1942), was instead his wife in The Long Halloween (1998). By the end, Harvey is incarcerated in Arkham Asylum for the Criminally Insane."--Even without the abusive father it still fits with past events haunting the individual.

The past forces the actions of all major Batman characters. They cannot get over it, and they continually suffer and make others suffer for acts that have long transpired. It's amazing to me that you would have made the claim in the first place.
DaemianLucifer wrote:but I cannot(objectivelly)comment on its story,nor on it being sexist/racist or not.
You know, you never can objectively comment on a story. All opinions are necessarily subjective simply by them being opinions.

I can only conclude that you are an idiot because of this exchange. You are unwilling to accept analysis and come up with half-baked defenses for it. It is a legitimate field of inquiry, and that you don't it shows your inexperience and lack of thinking, any thinking, on the subject. I'm done with this discussion.
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Unread postby innokenti » 18 Dec 2006, 20:55

Well Derek, I'd say that the characters of Dark Messiah of Might and Magic can be read as deeply as required. They have, many more layers to them that you first expect, whether the writer intended it or not.

Even Leanna.

Even the Succubus.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 18 Dec 2006, 21:48

That's only coz they wear clothes. :devil:


@Derek

WhenTF did this turn into Batman&Co.? Next time pls use some links instead.

plus you completly missed DL's point.
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Re: The Dark Misogynist

Unread postby Grumpy Old Wizard » 18 Dec 2006, 22:23

Derek wrote:
DaemianLucifer wrote:
DaemianLucifer wrote:but I cannot(objectivelly)comment on its story,nor on it being sexist/racist or not.
You know, you never can objectively comment on a story. All opinions are necessarily subjective simply by them being opinions.

I can only conclude that you are an idiot because of this exchange. You are unwilling to accept analysis and come up with half-baked defenses for it. It is a legitimate field of inquiry, and that you don't it shows your inexperience and lack of thinking, any thinking, on the subject. I'm done with this discussion.
Well, DL made an intelligent statement saying he can't objectively comment on the story because he has not played the game. Yet you insult him and state that you somehow can even though you don't know the story because you haven't played the game.

Name calling in arguments is generally not accepted in arguments unless you are a child or a politician and is certainly not the best way to get your points across. :)

Oh, and parting shots are uncool.

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Frodo: "I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."
Gandalf: "So do all who live to see such times but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

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Unread postby DaemianLucifer » 19 Dec 2006, 01:48

@Derek

I thought about answering you,but I see no point in repeating what previous posters already wrote.

As for your "smart" analysis of batman movie,let me just say this:You at least heard of the da vinci code if you didnt watch the movie or read the book as well.Dan brown made a few very interesting and even smart analysis of da vinci through his paintings(well actually it was other people that made those to be fair,but he acepted them),but does that mean that is actually what da vinci was aiming for?There is this thing called overanalysis.I may decide one day to paint something,so I paint the scenery that I see at that moment for no aparent reason,other than my urge to just paint.And some 500 years in the future someone looks at that painting and says how the sunrise represents the rise of the civilization that I saw was nearing,that those buildings represent progress,etc,etc.And boy would they be wrong.So no matter what you think that batman represents,that doesnt mean that you are correct(and you probably arent),and everyone who disagrees with you is not.

And yes I am not willing to accept your analysis of DM because you have no credibility to talk about it.

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The Dark Misogynist

Unread postby Jolly Joker » 19 Dec 2006, 13:20

I agree with what has ben said by Innokenti and Grumpy Old Wizard. Just so you know! :)
Edited on Tue, Dec 19 2006, 07:22 by Jolly Joker
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Unread postby innokenti » 19 Dec 2006, 13:45

Which has been said several times, but I don't think some people are listening I'm afraid JJ.

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The Dark Misogynist

Unread postby Jolly Joker » 19 Dec 2006, 14:21

I'm sorry, Innokenti. I just went through the posts again and only saw now that you - and in fact Grumpy as well - have already said the gist of what I tried to contribute.

Simply reread.
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Unread postby innokenti » 19 Dec 2006, 15:47

Don't worry, wasn't really having a go at that.

Just at the fact that the people arguing against DM haven't really gone to the basics of what is going on in the game and are actually arguing mostly against phantoms (i.e. things that don't per se occur in the game). Rather than looking at what could possibly be a pretty large problem (Leanna's possibly TOO secondary role and the way she is drawn) they lump it with random debris and irrelevance.


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