The Dark Misogynist

[Derek]

Yes it is.And no self respecting scientist talking about any aspect of africa would do so without visiting.

This claim is something along the lines of an argument from authority, another logical fallacy. In essence it is that we cannot take the opinion of someone simply because they do not meet some standard that the opposite party sets. I am capable of making an opinion about the game without having played it. One can speak about space without having been there, one can talk about giant squids without having ever seen one and one can talk about a game they have never played.

It is worth noting that others that have played the game have the same opinion on the matter as me. Their opinions are not better or worse by virtue of them having played the game.

Ok,lets then look at the rights of animals:Spiders are being threated wrongly here.We must change that.No spiders can be killed in such a brutal fashion,and the player should avoid id.Then lets look at pao kai:Those are endagered species,and should not be harmed at all.Lets look at the right of orcs and goblins:The game is so racist and pictures them all as evil,but they are all inteligent and should have equal rights as other races.Whant me to continue?

Yes, please. What if I claimed that a game can have a moral concious? What if there might be something wrong with killing all those things because they are 'evil'? I find it interesting that morality and gameplay are so often thought to be independent.

On the other hand, even if you just want to look at *the game* and nothing else, I would say that gameply of this sort plays into male fantasy acts and little more. Keep in mind also that women actually exist, that is important to note. Real things, humans specifically, that are in a text certainly have more weight than fictional creations. This is not to say the orcs and cannot be thought of as something else, but humans, simply be them being human, garner more attention.

So you are saying that any story where a man rescues a woman is sexist. Is a story where a woman rescues a man sexist? If not, why not?

I have never said this. Aspects of texts that feature this, a female in distress that must be saved, could be sexist. That is all I've ever maintained on the subject. I am increasingly becoming irritated at my statements being misrepresented.

If a man who works for the fire department rescues a woman from a burning building is he sexist? If a man who is a forest ranger resuces a female hiker who fell down an incline and broke her leg is he sexist?

I have never claimed that this was the case. Texts, by virtue of them being fiction, are bound by different rules than 'real life'.

Gender and sex are a part of life. If a man asks a woman out on a date is he sexist? If a woman asks a man out on a date is she sexist? If a man and woman engage in sexual banter are both the man and woman sexist? Is there anything natural about gender, sex, attraction, and courtship?

I have no idea what you're even talking about anymore.

You have not even played the game. Your opinion is not based on first hand experience. You do not even know the story. How can you say the story is trash when you have not read it?

I have already addressed the nature of the fallacy here. Also, if the game is sexist, I can say it is trash with no more thought.

[DaemianLucifer]

This claim is something along the lines of an argument from authority, another logical fallacy. In essence it is that we cannot take the opinion of someone simply because they do not meet some standard that the opposite party sets. I am capable of making an opinion about the game without having played it. One can speak about space without having been there, one can talk about giant squids without having ever seen one and one can talk about a game they have never played.

No,you can speculate about things you havent experienced yourself.Big difference between speculating something,and saying something thats true.And this is especially true about books,paintings,songs,movies,games,etc.

It is worth noting that others that have played the game have the same opinion on the matter as me. Their opinions are not better or worse by virtue of them having played the game.

Yes,the fact that someone stated his oppinion which you embrased as true without verifying it yourself does say a lot.

Yes, please. What if I claimed that a game can have a moral concious? What if there might be something wrong with killing all those things because they are 'evil'? I find it interesting that morality and gameplay are so often thought to be independent.

That would work if this wasnt a game about fighting,battles and war.There are no morals when killing is such a big part of a game.

On the other hand, even if you just want to look at *the game* and nothing else, I would say that gameply of this sort plays into male fantasy acts and little more. Keep in mind also that women actually exist, that is important to note. Real things, humans specifically, that are in a text certainly have more weight than fictional creations. This is not to say the orcs and cannot be thought of as something else, but humans, simply be them being human, garner more attention.

And what about all those WWII games?Those are ok because germans are all evil and killing them is ok?What about medieval games?What about GTA games?

[Derek]

No,you can speculate about things you havent experienced yourself.Big difference between speculating something,and saying something thats true.And this is especially true about books,paintings,songs,movies,games,etc.

So nothing can be stated a priori?

Yes,the fact that someone stated his oppinion which you embrased as true without verifying it yourself does say a lot.

You are not commenting on my claim, you are commenting only on me and my advance towards that claim. This type of argument is growing tiresome...

That would work if this wasnt a game about fighting,battles and war.There are no morals when killing is such a big part of a game.

That is perhaps the most outrageous thing I have ever heard. As a Lord of the Rings fan you must know that morals are a part of that story along with the killing. Violence is a good catalyst for making claims against it: Straw Dogs, A Clockwork Orange, Catch-22, Unforgiven. Unless you want to claim that games are exempt from this?

And what about all those WWII games?Those are ok because germans are all evil and killing them is ok?What about medieval games?What about GTA games?

I don't like those games. People, 'real' people, are being replicated to serve as a tool for the player. I find it disgusting to be honest that killing avatars of what were real people constitues entertainment for some.

GTA is different; it's very tongue in cheek about its violence. It attempts to criticize those that relate to such acts of violence and their culture, that's my take anyways(and most who think about the game agree).


This will likely be my last response unless someone comes up with a legitimate response to my claims instead of floundering about with already dealt with complaints. I'm a little shocked to be honest that there are so many defenders of something that seems so cut and dry. The game might be fun, gameplay is somehow exclusive from narrative for some, and I have no problem with people enjoying it as such. I just dislike how this game and so many others seem to condone the violence and sexism that runs rapantly unchecked in the industry. I like games that try to be something more; I find it disheartning that here I have to 'make the case' for videogames to move forward.

[DaemianLucifer]

So nothing can be stated a priori?

Of course it can.But the credibility of such statements drops drastically.Again,this is less true for some logical things that are based on fixed laws(determening the number of planets around a star,the size of a distant star,the behaviour of a certain liquid under certain pressure,etc)than for some things that are based on feelings and individual oppinions(works of art,entertainment pieces,etc).

You are not commenting on my claim, you are commenting only on me and my advance towards that claim. This type of argument is growing tiresome...

And until you play the game I wont comment on your claim about it.If you say,for example,that HV is rasistic,I will comment that because both you and me have played it.Those that played DM have every right to call it whatever they want,and I wont dispute them because I didnt play it myself.But I will dispute the right of those that didnt play it to make any comment on its story,gameplay,or whatever.

That is perhaps the most outrageous thing I have ever heard. As a Lord of the Rings fan you must know that morals are a part of that story along with the killing.

I could also argue that LotR is sexist and racist.I wont though,because I find such clames rather stupid.People are too obsessed about being racial/political or whatever correct in todays world that it turned them into even worse racists/sexists than before.

Violence is a good catalyst for making claims against it: Straw Dogs, A Clockwork Orange, Catch-22, Unforgiven. Unless you want to claim that games are exempt from this?

Nope.Like you said,there are even games that do this as well.But there are also those that use violence solemnly in the purpose of entertainment(action flicks,especially over the top ones like van helsing).You shouldnt look at those seriously because they werent made seriously.If you are looking for some hidden messages or deeper meaning in movies like kill bill,from dusk till dawn,crouching tiger hidden dragon,or games like duke nukem,doom,unreal,then you completelly missed the point of these and are going along the wrong track.

I don't like those games. People, 'real' people, are being replicated to serve as a tool for the player. I find it disgusting to be honest that killing avatars of what were real people constitues entertainment for some.

I only partially agree with you here.Mostly due to the fact that I preffer people venting their anger by slaughtering those hordes of "nazi bastards" then by taking a gun and shooting wildly in their offices/schools or by punching someone,or anything like that.

GTA is different; it's very tongue in cheek about its violence. It attempts to criticize those that relate to such acts of violence and their culture, that's my take anyways(and most who think about the game agree).

I agree with you here,but there are of course those that find the game as "something that corrupts our inocent teenagers and should be banned".So they completelly missed the point of the game,mostly because they never even saw it,let alone played it.So they are jumping to conclusions.Thats exactly what you are doing with DM.

This will likely be my last response unless someone comes up with a legitimate response to my claims instead of floundering about with already dealt with complaints. I'm a little shocked to be honest that there are so many defenders of something that seems so cut and dry. The game might be fun, gameplay is somehow exclusive from narrative for some, and I have no problem with people enjoying it as such. I just dislike how this game and so many others seem to condone the violence and sexism that runs rapantly unchecked in the industry. I like games that try to be something more; I find it disheartning that here I have to 'make the case' for videogames to move forward.

Personally I dont care.Its the state of the world and I can either enjoy it the way it is,or try to fight a loosing battle.Once in a while therell be a gem that will stand out,and Ill enjoy it a lot.Thats enough for me.

[Meandor]

And how do all the man look like?Like buffed up adonisses.Isnt that sexist as well?Aside the fact that they arent detaled as female characters,they are all buffed and toned.

Most of the time they fit story, setting and situation while female knight characters runing to enemies with open ass(usually seriously covering with armor only two parts of body) looks wrong and screams sexism.

[Cleanpea]

DL wrote



"I could also argue that LotR is sexist and racist.I wont though,because I find such clames rather stupid.People are too obsessed about being racial/political or whatever correct in todays world that it turned them into even worse racists/sexists than before."







I think I understand your line of thoughts here. But standing up and saying what you mean is different from trying to say what you think others say is right; in other words: Do you imply that the people you now argue against are just trying to be racially/politically correct?





Or that people with in an important argument should shut up because unless they meet your expectations of meaning something, they are labelled as narrowminded or less credible?





I have not played DM myself (only the demo). Yet I have read from many frequent posters on this forum (I think from you as well, DL), that the stories written for both H5 and DM mostly suck. For various resons. This story that obviously highlights FEMALES as sideroles, and sexroles only. The games should be interested to sell a game to females too, not label the games as "for boys/girls only."





Am I just being politically correct now?

[innokenti]

The story doesn't suck. It leaves a lot to be desired and there is a lot that is formulaic and also bland, but it has its merits. It must do because I didn't see the twist that they included coming, I was expecting something else.

Secondly, there is only one woman in the game, and that is Leanna. The Succubus is not a woman, but a demon, her appearance in the human-ish female form is there for the reason of tempting - her character is being sexist, not the writer.

Leanna is not in there soleley as a sex object. There is an element of that which is to be lamented and deplored, and one must seriously question the stereotype that the writer decided to use. However she is the main character in the story apart from Sareth and Arantir and plays a significant role in the plot.

They could have made the character you play female. They could have made the antagonist female. Yes. They didn't and that was a legitimate decision irrespective of anything. Having a female lead would only be 'alternative' rather than 'not sexist'.

So the only other issue left is character art and animation - which is the big failing. Leanna is vastly underdressed and runs around in a distincly... uh... prancing manner. You expect there to be some sort of magazine phot-shoot just around the corner. So the artists should probably be questioned over their decision.


There we go.

[DaemianLucifer]

I think I understand your line of thoughts here. But standing up and saying what you mean is different from trying to say what you think others say is right; in other words: Do you imply that the people you now argue against are just trying to be racially/politically correct?

Yup.

Or that people with in an important argument should shut up because unless they meet your expectations of meaning something, they are labelled as narrowminded or less credible?

Did you see me attack the interviewers oppinion?No,because he formed it by playing the game and not by reading someone else.

I have not played DM myself (only the demo). Yet I have read from many frequent posters on this forum (I think from you as well, DL), that the stories written for both H5 and DM mostly suck. For various resons. This story that obviously highlights FEMALES as sideroles, and sexroles only. The games should be interested to sell a game to females too, not label the games as "for boys/girls only."





Am I just being politically correct now?

About your oppinion that games should be sold to females as well,no you are not just politically correct,you are correct.About your statement that the story of DM obviously highlits females as sideroles however,you arent voicing your oppinion,but the oppinion you read from someone.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

You have not even played the game. Your opinion is not based on first hand experience. You do not even know the story. How can you say the story is trash when you have not read it?

I have already addressed the nature of the fallacy here. Also, if the game is sexist, I can say it is trash with no more thought.

However, you cannot honestly say the game is sexist if you have not played it.

GOW

[Cleanpea]

I like this forum! It has a lot of different intelligent people



Happy holydays!!

[ThunderTitan]

However, you cannot honestly say the game is sexist if you have not played it.

GOW

Replace honestly with certainly and i'll agree.

@DL
Luthien and Eowyn save Tolkien from any accusation of sexism.

[Derek]

Of course it can.But the credibility of such statements drops drastically.Again,this is less true for some logical things that are based on fixed laws(determening the number of planets around a star,the size of a distant star,the behaviour of a certain liquid under certain pressure,etc)than for some things that are based on feelings and individual oppinions(works of art,entertainment pieces,etc).

Credibility does not drop with an a priori statment when there is sufficient evidence to support it.

And until you play the game I wont comment on your claim about it.If you say,for example,that HV is rasistic,I will comment that because both you and me have played it.Those that played DM have every right to call it whatever they want,and I wont dispute them because I didnt play it myself.But I will dispute the right of those that didnt play it to make any comment on its story,gameplay,or whatever.

I have played HV Demo, nothing more.

If I am given sufficient knowledge on a given subject, and I think I have been with DM, I can make a claim about it. This will be the last time I address this.

You cannot make a claim about a text unless there is evidence within it to support that claim. With DM, since I have sufficient information, this is not the case.

I could also argue that LotR is sexist and racist.I wont though,because I find such clames rather stupid.People are too obsessed about being racial/political or whatever correct in todays world that it turned them into even worse racists/sexists than before.

I appreciate you labeling me so as to make my claim seem biased and not worth conisdering. So by arguing against objectifying women one makes them even more of objects? Just what are you talking about?

Nope.Like you said,there are even games that do this as well.But there are also those that use violence solemnly in the purpose of entertainment(action flicks,especially over the top ones like van helsing).You shouldnt look at those seriously because they werent made seriously.If you are looking for some hidden messages or deeper meaning in movies like kill bill,from dusk till dawn,crouching tiger hidden dragon,or games like duke nukem,doom,unreal,then you completelly missed the point of these and are going along the wrong track.

"violence solemnly in the purpose of entertainment", I may have to make that my signature considering how crazy it is.

Kill Bill shows how violence eventually catches up with someone and how it trys to destroy all it touches. I have not seen Crouching Tiger but I know there is more to the story than just mindless violence.

I have not come across a quality text that makes violence seem acceptable. You may claim that DM, or other violence driven games, are using the nature of the 'twitch reflex' gameplay mechanic in conjunction with violence to create a game. Again, this is the last time I will state this, I have no problem with people enjoying the game for action if they ignore any other aspects of it.

I disagree with your mentioning of hidden message and deeper meaning as that is misleading and not what I'm talking about. I do not even think you know what I'm talking about.

only partially agree with you here.Mostly due to the fact that I preffer people venting their anger by slaughtering those hordes of "nazi *******" then by taking a gun and shooting wildly in their offices/schools or by punching someone,or anything like that.

This is insane. I'll admit the shocking truth here: if I hadn't played RE4 I would have gone on a killing spree.

Are you implying that DM fans are all sexist?

I agree with you here,but there are of course those that find the game as "something that corrupts our inocent teenagers and should be banned".So they completelly missed the point of the game,mostly because they never even saw it,let alone played it.So they are jumping to conclusions.Thats exactly what you are doing with DM.

I have played games like this whilst they haven't. I am familiar with the contrivances of the medium and how it treats women. I am claiming that DM, through the writer's laziness, treats women as less than human, while they, those against GTA, are claiming that GTA tells people to kill people. I am not jumping to conclusions.

Personally I dont care.Its the state of the world and I can either enjoy it the way it is,or try to fight a loosing battle.Once in a while therell be a gem that will stand out,and Ill enjoy it a lot.Thats enough for me.

Political movements are a sham, you shouldn't try to change anything, and you shouldn't ever complain. If a text makes a point then it should be ignored. Apathy and nihilism must run rapant.

Edit:

Actualy it is... any game where all members of one of the sexes are portraited in a negative manner is sexist, succubus or no. Might not be intentional, but it doesn't really matter.

I won't touch authorial intent, but this is basically all I've ever maintained on the subject.

[Wildbear]

Yeah, sexist games rule !

[ThunderTitan]

Yeah, sexist games rule !

Well... that wasn't the question. I take it you like DM then.

[arturchix]

lol, how many of you guys here have actually played the game?



This topic should have been called "The Dark Sexism".

[DaemianLucifer]

Credibility does not drop with an a priori statment when there is sufficient evidence to support it.

Yup,but while in formalistic systems its easy to say what evidence is,its not so in non formalistic systems.You cannot call a personal oppinion of someone that played a game/watched a movie/listened to a concert/etc evidence.

I have played HV Demo, nothing more.

Ah,sorry then,you arent credible to comment on HV story as well.Even if you agree with me that its shallow,bland and poorly told Id still go against you unless you play the game yourself.

If I am given sufficient knowledge on a given subject, and I think I have been with DM, I can make a claim about it. This will be the last time I address this.

No,you are given various oppinions.Until you playe the game yourself,you dont have sufficient knowledge.Even if you read the story,you can only comment on what it says,but not on its presentation.

You cannot make a claim about a text unless there is evidence within it to support that claim. With DM, since I have sufficient information, this is not the case.

Oppinions arent objective information and shouldnt be threated as such.Imagine a blind man descirbing you micheleangelos david,telling you how the marble is smooth,how its curvy,how its big,and similar,and you call it boring crap.Can you say that you had sufficient information for this clame?

I appreciate you labeling me so as to make my claim seem biased and not worth conisdering. So by arguing against objectifying women one makes them even more of objects? Just what are you talking about?

Let me explain you on the example of hate crimes:if a white guy kills a white guy,its just a murder and he gets some 20 years prison.But if he was to kill a black guy,suddenly its a hate crime and he get 50 years.So that would mean that a black guy is more worth than a white guy.Thus a law made to supress racisam actually is extremelly racistic.Same can be said for loads of other thing involing sexism/racism.By trying to look politically correct people become increasingly more uncorrect.Im not saying that being a sexist/racist is ok,but that you shouldnt be overzealous at it and use common sense.Here,take this discussion for another example:Someone said that he thinks the game is sexist and suddenly HP and you jumped to attack the game without even playing it to verify this.Thats overzealous political correctness.And dont get me wrong,even if you went to call the author an idiot and say that the game isnt sexist at all,youd be wrong again because you didnt play it.

"violence solemnly in the purpose of entertainment", I may have to make that my signature considering how crazy it is.

Yup,boxing is crazy.But people love it nevertheless.

Kill Bill shows how violence eventually catches up with someone and how it trys to destroy all it touches. I have not seen Crouching Tiger but I know there is more to the story than just mindless violence.

Sure and batman shows how having a childhood trauma can change your life forever

This is insane. I'll admit the shocking truth here: if I hadn't played RE4 I would have gone on a killing spree.

Oh come one,dont twist my words.But people need to vent their rage once in a while.Now most wont go on a killing spree if they dont vent,but they will be frustrated still,thus doing their jobs poorly,driving uncarefully,etc,and that can be just as bad.Wheter they vent by playing some sport with friends or by playing a video game is irrelevant,as long as they do vent all of their rage.

Are you implying that DM fans are all sexist?

Really?Where did I say anything even remotelly close to that?Did I ever call the game sexist or not sexist?I never played the game so I cannot comment on this.I can comment its graphics,its sound,partially its gameplay(from what Ive seen in the demo),the look of its creatures,buildings,spells and weapons,but I cannot(objectivelly)comment on its story,nor on it being sexist/racist or not.

I have played games like this whilst they haven't. I am familiar with the contrivances of the medium and how it treats women. I am claiming that DM, through the writer's laziness, treats women as less than human, while they, those against GTA, are claiming that GTA tells people to kill people. I am not jumping to conclusions.

I own domestic cats and if I use their behaviour as a bassis for wild lions and say wild lions never drink milk,or wild lions sleep 20 hours a day Im making a valid statement and am not jumping to conclusions?

[Kalah]

Jeezes, these loooong comments make the main page look so corny...

[innokenti]

"The Dark Mysoginist"



8,000,000 comments.

[Angelspit]

I guess it would be a good time to post another news story.

[ThunderTitan]

"This topic should have been called "The Dark Sexism"."

Do you know what Misogynist means?!