Patch 1.2 News

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DaemianLucifer
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Jul 7 2006, 16:59

davhey wrote:Sigh. If they rushed it and it wasn't up to snuff you would complain. If they take thier time to get it right you would complain. I swear, I have never seen more pissing and moaning from a player community. Most games release bugged, get one patch only and have no developer who will talk to the community. Show a little appreciation that they are trying at all!


Alais_Servius wrote:I fully agree with davhey and Lord_Haart. If it's something the Heroes community can, it is to complain. Nothing seems to be good enough for you guys!

Lord Haart:

"Why do people forget why H4 was such a flop so quickly?"

And to add: Why has everybody forgotten that if it weren't for Ubi and Nival, we could have ended up with a non-caring producer to make Heroes 5, or quite possibly, no producer at all?

Jeez... You can't possibly make a game perfect, because everyone is going to have their own little different version in their head on how the game should be. No matter what you do, there are some people who's going to like it, and there are some that won't.

People, stop beeing so negative! Your dragging my mood (and others, no doubt) down the drain


And how come people forget the one month delay so quickly?Wasnt it the official stance of this community for the game to be delayed for as long as it is necessary for the game to be finished.Well,I somehow dont see it finished,not even close to it.Oh,and Id prefer not having heroes than this.If they took on them the burden of making the game,they shouldve done it right.

And about perfect games,Ill just say starcraft and civilization.Those two arent perfect,true,but the developers actually listen to the fans and fulfill their wishes.

ThunderTitan wrote: The undersigned.


Dont you mean leftsigned? :devious:

Oh,and I think the mods played with your avatar as well :devil:

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Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 7 2006, 17:35

DaemianLucifer wrote:Oh,and I think the mods played with your avatar as well :devil:


Nah, Stoic Dwarf kinda went out the window lately. As always i blame Blue Eyes.
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Patch 1.2 News

Postby Rhutobello » Jul 7 2006, 20:38

Somehow I can't understand those who blame us for complaining about an unfinish game.
"all of you" who think HoMM5 is such a perfect game are indeed the perfect buyer for the gamingindustry. You buy crap and you say halleleluja...it wasen't quiet what I wanted..but those poor developer had no more time and the produser want a new project out the door??? No wonder more and more games comes unfinish out the door!
You have to start to demand that the game you are buying at least have some value in it beside some pretty pictures. You have to make noise to the "magazin" industry that say halleleluja and give it 9 of 10. What in HoMM5 says it's worth such a score? 1 hour gametime maybe?
No..no...sending out a game like HoMM5 with such little material is a scorn to those developer who still makes good games and don't get HoMM publisity!

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Re: Patch 1.2 News

Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Jul 7 2006, 21:57

Rhutobello wrote:Somehow I can't understand those who blame us for complaining about an unfinish game.

"all of you" who think HoMM5 is such a perfect game are indeed the perfect buyer for the gamingindustry. You buy crap and you say halleleluja...


Hmmmm. I wouldn't say HOMM5 is perfect but it certainly can't be said that it is "crap" either.

I have played HOMM since HOMM1. I love fantasy games, turn based strategy games, role playing, which is probably why I have enjoyed the series so much. I find HOMM5 to be enjoyable though it is short on maps.

I have not played HOMM 5 multiplayer so perhaps there is a problem there, but I have had no bugs in the single player games, and no crashes.

IMHO HOMM5 is a good game. It could use some tweaks here and there and hopefully those will be addresses in the upcoming patch and future patches.

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Re: Patch 1.2 News

Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 7 2006, 22:10

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:I have not played HOMM 5 multiplayer so perhaps there is a problem there, but I have had no bugs in the single player games, and no crashes.


Have you actualy read the Buglist thread? You seem to have just gotten lucky.
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Re: Patch 1.2 News

Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Jul 7 2006, 23:56

ThunderTitan wrote:
Grumpy Old Wizard wrote:I have not played HOMM 5 multiplayer so perhaps there is a problem there, but I have had no bugs in the single player games, and no crashes.


Have you actualy read the Buglist thread? You seem to have just gotten lucky.


No, I have not read the bugs list thread. Perhaps I have just gotten lucky as you say.

I have the US regular version. Perhaps the bugs are with other versions? The only bug I encountered was a battle starting in real time for about a round I guess then going back to the turn based setting.

I also have not installed any mods or attempted to alter the game in any way to enable the cheat menu, graphics used in the beta, or anything else.

My computer also exceeds the recommended specs for playing the game so I don't have to worry about lack of memory, ect causing problems.

I do not know if anything I mentioned above has contributed to anyone having any bugs pop up in their games. All I know is that I have not had bugs in my games, and I played all the campaigns and most of the maps.

If I had experienced a lot of bugs of course my opinion of the game might be different. But fortunately for whatever reason I have not experienced any problems with the game. Maybe I just have a luck gene. In that case I need to start investing in lottery tickets.

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Re: Patch 1.2 News

Postby Bandobras Took » Jul 8 2006, 0:47

Dakobstah wrote:You would think that this community expected quality or something...


I've given up on that, especially from the majority of posters nowadays, who are determined to dislike the game at any cost. I don't blame Nival or Ubi for apparently not listening to the "fans." I can't stand a lot of them, either.

I especially wonder who's an employee of Nival or Ubi that can actually testify to their having done a "half-assed" effort.

I also wonder about the assumption that because the game works on my computer (no crashes), I've somehow gotten lucky. I fulfilled the minimum requirements and it works fine.

Although the game does run more quickly since I patched it. Maybe they did a "half-assed" job and only optimized it for my computer. But somehow I doubt that.

DL mentioned Civ as a perfect game, cheerfully ignoring that a significant percentage of CIV4 buyers couldn't even play the game out of the package. And implies that the makers of Heroes 5 didn't listen to the fans, a nice rhetorical way of saying that anybody who enjoys Heroes 5 is not a fan.

Given the number of people who did nothing but complain about Fabrice Cambounet's last post, why should they even bother posting here? It's not like posters here show them anything resembling common courtesy or manners.

Or even give them the benefit of a doubt.

So far, most of the "expertise" I've heard on production deadlines comes from people who play the games, not those who make them i.e., people who have no clue what's being going on inside Ubi and Nival are describing what's been going on in Ubi or Nival.

It's hardly appealing to visit or post to a forum where people like to tell you what you've been doing for the past 100 hours, never mind whether they know or not.

I remember when news of the first patch came out.

Thunder Titan said (in response to a post talking about how the patch helped optimize the game), "Optimization is the least they could do." Happily implying that the patch ought to have had more.

Daemian Lucifer said, essentially, that they should be releasing features one at a time as soon as they were certain they worked.

Which whiner ("fan") were they supposed to believe?

And several people complained that they were too lazy to take the time to add artifact descriptions.

Never mind that they did and anybody who actually downloaded and used the patch saw that instantly. It was far more convenient to complain when they had no clue what they were talking about.

A rather itinerant poster named Da'Vane spent several pages complaining about the skill system before revealing basic ignorance of how the skills even worked. He had no legitimate information, he just wanted to complain.

Given the general atmosphere created by such posters and the general abuse being heaped on Ubi by people with no manners, why should they even bother to come and read the threads?

Any legitmate points, such as Ethric is apt to make, are likely to be buried under a fog of abuse and words without knowledge.
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Postby LordErtz » Jul 8 2006, 1:20

Grumpy, you are "lucky" because you don't have any documentation on how to play the game. If you checked out CH unofficial manual, then you would know that there is so much wrong with the game that you weren't so "lucky". Thank the developers for not including a manual so you can't find the crap stuck within the game.

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Re: Patch 1.2 News

Postby DaemianLucifer » Jul 8 2006, 2:40

Bandobras Took wrote:DL mentioned Civ as a perfect game, cheerfully ignoring that a significant percentage of CIV4 buyers couldn't even play the game out of the package. And implies that the makers of Heroes 5 didn't listen to the fans, a nice rhetorical way of saying that anybody who enjoys Heroes 5 is not a fan.


Yes,quote just a part of my post,and twist my words.That always works.First of all I said its NOT a perfect game,but that the devs listen to the fans,meanig that they fixed the things most fans found broken and unbalancing,released regular patches,etc.And I said civ,labeling the whole series,not just civIV.Also,civIV works perffctly on my computer,even though I still didnt instal the patch(though I have it).

Second,I never even onces said that anyone who likes HV is a fan.If you read my other posts youll be sure of this.Why do I think the devs didnt listen to fans?Because the game came out unfinished,even though majority said that they should postpone it enough to finish it,because the map editor is being delayed for so long,because the extra maps are being delayed,because the patches are being delayed,and the first patch fixes just a handfull of bugs.Please tell me that people that like HV also like having to wait so long for extra maps,bug fixes,map editor,or that they like that the game came out so buggy?

Bandobras Took wrote:Given the number of people who did nothing but complain about Fabrice Cambounet's last post, why should they even bother posting here? It's not like posters here show them anything resembling common courtesy or manners.


Oh really?Lets see now,since the HV has been just announced Ive seen literally tons of marvelous proposals and solutions for problems we had in previous games and on which the devs came during the process.Let me just mention the town parcels,chaotic upgrades,interesting dwarven race proposals,stack XP,and lots more.Also consider that fact that WoG and equi team would willingly do some work for the devs if they asked,and I seriously doubt that any of them would ask for anything more then credits in the game.But considering nothing of that happened,lots of us just lost hope and went from proposals to critic.Pretty understandable.

Bandobras Took wrote:Or even give them the benefit of a doubt.

So far, most of the "expertise" I've heard on production deadlines comes from people who play the games, not those who make them i.e., people who have no clue what's being going on inside Ubi and Nival are describing what's been going on in Ubi or Nival.


Riiiight,all of us know nothing about bussiness and deadlines therefore have no right to comment on those.

Bandobras Took wrote:It's hardly appealing to visit or post to a forum where people like to tell you what you've been doing for the past 100 hours, never mind whether they know or not.

I remember when news of the first patch came out.

Thunder Titan said (in response to a post talking about how the patch helped optimize the game), "Optimization is the least they could do." Happily implying that the patch ought to have had more.


And it should.Mind you that the optimization shouldve been done before the game came out,and not two months after.

Bandobras Took wrote:Daemian Lucifer said, essentially, that they should be releasing features one at a time as soon as they were certain they worked.


Exactly.So what if the final version is 1.784?It would please the fans much more to receive a patch every day that fixes something small than to receive one big patch after two months.

Bandobras Took wrote:Which whiner ("fan") were they supposed to believe?


You are saying that those two things contradict each other?Read them again then,but carefully this time.

Bandobras Took wrote:And several people complained that they were too lazy to take the time to add artifact descriptions.

Never mind that they did and anybody who actually downloaded and used the patch saw that instantly. It was far more convenient to complain when they had no clue what they were talking about.


Riiiight.So what they did is check the list the fans provided and added it.How much time does that take?About 10 minutes.There shouldve been artifact descriptions prior to the patch.

Bandobras Took wrote:A rather itinerant poster named Da'Vane spent several pages complaining about the skill system before revealing basic ignorance of how the skills even worked. He had no legitimate information, he just wanted to complain.


Da vane complains about the skill system being closed.Quite a legitimae complain,even though I dont agree with it.

Bandobras Took wrote:Given the general atmosphere created by such posters and the general abuse being heaped on Ubi by people with no manners, why should they even bother to come and read the threads?

Any legitmate points, such as Ethric is apt to make, are likely to be buried under a fog of abuse and words without knowledge.


Read the old table,or the posts from the starting of this one and youll see a completely different attitude.An attitude of fans pointing out the errors and fixes for those errors.An attitude of fans giving their skills for free,either for beta testing,doing the extra work,or just coming up with briliant ideas.After being ignored for the whole time,especially after the blunders such as the town contest,the missing descriptions,bugs that got noticed in the beta,yet still arent fixed,tell me why we shouldnt be outraged?

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Re: Patch 1.2 News

Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 8 2006, 6:55

Bandobras Took wrote:I especially wonder who's an employee of Nival or Ubi that can actually testify to their having done a "half-assed" effort.


It's called an NDA. :disagree:
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Re: Patch 1.2 News

Postby Bandobras Took » Jul 8 2006, 8:29

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote:DL mentioned Civ as a perfect game, cheerfully ignoring that a significant percentage of CIV4 buyers couldn't even play the game out of the package. And implies that the makers of Heroes 5 didn't listen to the fans, a nice rhetorical way of saying that anybody who enjoys Heroes 5 is not a fan.


Yes,quote just a part of my post,and twist my words.That always works.First of all I said its NOT a perfect game,but that the devs listen to the fans,meanig that they fixed the things most fans found broken and unbalancing,released regular patches,etc.And I said civ,labeling the whole series,not just civIV.Also,civIV works perffctly on my computer,even though I still didnt instal the patch(though I have it).


Why not? It's the current method. Take a little part of the whole, decide you don't like it, and complain about it. They didn't fix artifact descriptions in the patch? They're lazy. They did? Why are they wasting time on that? Either way, they're not listening to the fans.

DaemianLucifer wrote:Second,I never even onces said that anyone who likes HV is a fan.If you read my other posts youll be sure of this.Why do I think the devs didnt listen to fans?Because the game came out unfinished,even though majority said that they should postpone it enough to finish it,because the map editor is being delayed for so long,because the extra maps are being delayed,because the patches are being delayed,and the first patch fixes just a handfull of bugs.Please tell me that people that like HV also like having to wait so long for extra maps,bug fixes,map editor,or that they like that the game came out so buggy?


Great, so the fans want:
1) No delay on the map editor;
2) More maps;
3) No delay on patches; and
4) Patches that fix more than just a handful of bugs.

Except, given what you just said, the fans wanted delay so that everything could be finished and polished. And what happens when they delay a map editor so that they can finish and polish it? The fans don't want a delay. Either way, they're not going to win with that list of demands. No delay, but significant and flawless improvements anyway. Yeesh, if the fans give them contradictory requests, they're going to have to pick one eventually.

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote:Given the number of people who did nothing but complain about Fabrice Cambounet's last post, why should they even bother posting here? It's not like posters here show them anything resembling common courtesy or manners.


Oh really?Lets see now,since the HV has been just announced Ive seen literally tons of marvelous proposals and solutions for problems we had in previous games and on which the devs came during the process.Let me just mention the town parcels,chaotic upgrades,


Because all fans approve of these things?

DaemianLucifer wrote:interesting dwarven race proposals,


Because they couldn't decide to delay other races until an expansion, when they've got a clearer idea of the game balance?

DaemianLucifer wrote:stack XP,


Of which I do not approve. If they had put it in, I could happily rant about it for the next 5,000 posts and claim that had not listened to the fans because they didn't use my ideas. Just because one cannot see what reason Nival had for not doing something does not mean they had no reason.

DaemianLucifer wrote:and lots more.Also consider that fact that WoG and equi team would willingly do some work for the devs if they asked,and I seriously doubt that any of them would ask for anything more then credits in the game.


Let them speak for themselves, then. Get a firm testimonial from either crew.

And then ask Ubi's corporate lawyers what they think of the idea.

DaemianLucifer wrote:But considering nothing of that happened,lots of us just lost hope and went from proposals to critic.Pretty understandable.


I have no problems with criticisms; I've made a few myself. It's the manner in which it is done that's not going to make them any more eager to take suggestions.

And given that not everybody agrees with what ought to have been done with Heroes 5, losing hope and become a critic seems more akin to throwing a fit because you didn't get what you wanted.

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote:Or even give them the benefit of a doubt.

So far, most of the "expertise" I've heard on production deadlines comes from people who play the games, not those who make them i.e., people who have no clue what's being going on inside Ubi and Nival are describing what's been going on in Ubi or Nival.


Riiiight,all of us know nothing about bussiness and deadlines therefore have no right to comment on those.


Correct. Those of us who have no clue what Nival's doing on an average work week have no right to say what Nival's doing on an average work week. If anybody who works at Nival would like to give us a heads up, then we might have something concrete and solid to complain about. Otherwise, "Nival's lazy because I don't get what I want" is the cry of a spoiled child.

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote:It's hardly appealing to visit or post to a forum where people like to tell you what you've been doing for the past 100 hours, never mind whether they know or not.

I remember when news of the first patch came out.

Thunder Titan said (in response to a post talking about how the patch helped optimize the game), "Optimization is the least they could do." Happily implying that the patch ought to have had more.


And it should.Mind you that the optimization shouldve been done before the game came out,and not two months after.

Bandobras Took wrote:Daemian Lucifer said, essentially, that they should be releasing features one at a time as soon as they were certain they worked.


Exactly.So what if the final version is 1.784?It would please the fans much more to receive a patch every day that fixes something small than to receive one big patch after two months.

Bandobras Took wrote:Which whiner ("fan") were they supposed to believe?


You are saying that those two things contradict each other?Read them again then,but carefully this time.


Yep. The sarcasm of Thunder Titan is meant to communicate that Ubi didn't do enough with the patch. Or that they released the game too soon, and the patch should have been included with the inital release, pushing back the release date.

Your comment is that as soon as they get enough features that work, they should release.

So which is it? Should Ubi, for example, release the map editor when enough features work, as quickly as possible, or should they delay it past the promised date to make sure that it's polished and finished?

Tell them what the fans want. Speak up.

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote:And several people complained that they were too lazy to take the time to add artifact descriptions.

Never mind that they did and anybody who actually downloaded and used the patch saw that instantly. It was far more convenient to complain when they had no clue what they were talking about.


Riiiight.So what they did is check the list the fans provided and added it.How much time does that take?About 10 minutes.There shouldve been artifact descriptions prior to the patch.


Yep. But the fans didn't care about optimization or fixing the ATB or the addition of an Easy difficulty or the toning down of some Campaign Maps. They waved around the artifact descriptions as something Nival was too lazy to do as though that were the important thing. All it would have taken was a little time with the patch to find out that the problem had been fixed.

It's a symptom of a much larger problem with the majority of complainers: their unfinching ability to assign factual statements with a complete lack of solid evidence.

Complainers told us artifact descriptions were missing from the patch based on a news release. It apparently never occurred to them to install the patch and see if Nival considered that too trivial to be mentioned in the news release.

Likewise, people assume maliciousness/laziness in a delayed map editor. There's no evidence for this. They assume maliciousness/laziness in a non-delayed release. There's also no evidence for this.

They assume that game is critically bugged because it does not run on their machines. Perhaps mine is the only machine in existence where it runs smoothly, but statistically speaking, I doubt it.

It's possible that Nival is lazy, malicious, and dedicated to ruining the lives of Heroes fans by harvesting their suggestions and deliberately not doing them. But until we can get somebody who knows that is the case and has the credentials to back it up, the complaining amounts to little more than name-calling because pet ideas were not scooped up by the company.

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote:A rather itinerant poster named Da'Vane spent several pages complaining about the skill system before revealing basic ignorance of how the skills even worked. He had no legitimate information, he just wanted to complain.


Da vane complains about the skill system being closed.Quite a legitimae complain,even though I dont agree with it.


If you read the thread, his complaint was eventually found to be that certain heroes would be weaker through constricted skill selection than others. Then he revealed his ignorance of one of the more basic skills of the Demon Lord. He was complaining without play experience or firsthand observation to back it up. That's not a good way to get the point across.

To reemphasize, it's not the complaining. It's the manner in which they're doing it.

DaemianLucifer wrote:
Bandobras Took wrote:Given the general atmosphere created by such posters and the general abuse being heaped on Ubi by people with no manners, why should they even bother to come and read the threads?

Any legitmate points, such as Ethric is apt to make, are likely to be buried under a fog of abuse and words without knowledge.


Read the old table,or the posts from the starting of this one and youll see a completely different attitude.An attitude of fans pointing out the errors and fixes for those errors.An attitude of fans giving their skills for free,either for beta testing,doing the extra work,or just coming up with briliant ideas.After being ignored for the whole time,especially after the blunders such as the town contest,


Oh, I remember the old forums quite vividly. For example, when the first concept art for the Angel came out, and everybody started complaining that it was Anime (which it wasn't, the style comes nearly directly out of the French comic books I've seen while in France), that the Angel was female (there's the crowd that wants something new, all right), that there was overt religious reference (never mind a building in H2 called a Cathedral that produces Crusaders -- no overt religious reference there!). I also remember quite a few maniacs with pet theories who would repeatedly post them until sensible suggestions were drowned out.

If the fans gave their skills for free, why are you hanging around waiting for a receipt?

If somebody with the best of intentions offers me a basket full of refuse for free, I'm under no obligation to accept. I'd still be very polite in thanking them.

It's wonderful sentimentality to believe that everybody who offers something up for free ought to see their suggestion implemented, but it's not going to result in a good game.

Once we admit that decisions on what to accept and reject have to be made, somebody's going to end up disappointed.

I don't believe any fan makes a suggestion because they think it will be a bad idea for heroes. Of course those who don't see their suggestions implemented are going to think it weakens the game -- they wouldn't have made the suggestions if they didn't think they were an improvement.

I personally am rather upset that I can't really play the game with my nephew, because of the explicit nature of Dungeon troops. And everybody in my community who I know plays Heroes feels exactly the same way. But this by no means indicates that Nival is not listening to the fans.

Does the inclusion of a sexpot faction indicate that Nival is ignoring the fans and acting against the best interests of the game by alienating the family/religious crowds?

They even went so far in the patch as to redesign one of the models. Talk about adding insult to injury.

If I were following standard complaint format on Celestial Heavens as it stands, I would be posting in every thread (it doesn't matter the topic) and turn it to a discussion of morality. I would also make startling statements about the sexual preferences and habits of every Nival employee, whether I have direct experience with such or not. I would finish up by, whenever a Nival/Ubi employee posted in this forum, searching his/her comments for any sign of sexual innuendo, and take this as proof positive of my assumptions about their private lives.

It's not the complaints I'm complaining about. It's the manner, conduct, and abrasive prolixity of those who complain that strikes me as singularly ill-mannered, and ensure that Ubi/Nival will likely bypass CH as a source for ideas in favor of forums where people express complaints in a polite, intelligent manner, and accept denials with good grace and patience.

DaemianLucifer wrote:the missing descriptions,bugs that got noticed in the beta,yet still arent fixed,tell me why we shouldnt be outraged?


Because outrage over a computer game is really rather silly, and outrage against a crushing corporate/economic structure that strangles creativity in favor of profit is probably better handled through politics/revolutionary means than spamming a fansite's forums?

Speaking personally, I've never had an experience where anybody -- myself included, was justified in losing their temper. People getting angry and lashing out were ones incapable of seeing both sides of the story, which is a fairly crippling blindness.

Cheers.
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Postby Gaidal Cain » Jul 8 2006, 8:46

Hmm. the "unfinishedness" of H5 seems to me to be in two major areas: lack of MP and lack of Map editor. The rest of the game has several bugs, true, but I don't think any of them that's show-stopping. So, if they would have delayed the game, it would have been for the map editor and MP, and that delay would have forced them to release it during summer- not the best time to release a game.

Oh, and as for WoG- Fabrice did contact us way back, at the same time Ch had those suggestion threads that were later summarized and sent to him. So you'd either have to argue that Fabrice is a lying bastard who asks fans to do work for him and then disregard it, or accpet the fact that for some reason or other, those suggestions just weren't used.
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Re: Patch 1.2 News

Postby ThunderTitan » Jul 8 2006, 11:11

Bandobras Took wrote:I've given up on that, especially from the majority of posters nowadays, who are determined to dislike the game at any cost. I don't blame Nival or Ubi for apparently not listening to the "fans." I can't stand a lot of them, either.



It is way easier to listen just to the fans that like you no matter what you do. And just because they dislike "this and that" doesn't mean they hate the game. It's just annoying when peole claim the game is perfect as it is.

Speaking personally, I've never had an experience where anybody -- myself included, was justified in losing their temper


Where the heck do you live?! Does honey rain out of trees there?
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Postby Grumpy Old Wizard » Jul 8 2006, 11:34

Well, I for one hope we can keep these discussions at least civil and preferably friendly. :)

One can disagree with someone and argue his points with fever without becoming angry with the other party.

I can think of many things that are worth becoming angry about but another person's view of a game is not one of them. :)

GOW

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Postby jeff » Jul 8 2006, 17:45

Gaidal Cain wrote: that delay would have forced them to release it during summer- not the best time to release a game.


The worst time is when the game is not ready, you're right most bugs were not show stoppers and should not have taken much time to fix. Delaying it also means the time between game release and map editor release would have been less as well. I believe a lot of people are now waiting on the side lines hoping for custom maps so they can enjoy this game the way it should be enjoyed.
Mala Ipsa Nova :bugsquash:

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Re: Patch 1.2 News

Postby DaemianLucifer » Jul 8 2006, 17:51

Bandobras Took wrote:Why not? It's the current method. Take a little part of the whole, decide you don't like it, and complain about it. They didn't fix artifact descriptions in the patch? They're lazy. They did? Why are they wasting time on that? Either way, they're not listening to the fans.


Well then,you should read me more carefully.I complained that artifact descriptions were missing from the initial release.Its fixed in a patch?Well good,one problem solved,many more left.I continued to complain about the problems I complained before,but didnt got fixed(overpowered spells,lousy story,for example),I never said that they wasted time on that.But they did waste time on trivialities like changing the looks of blood witches(or some other unit,I dont care,because it looked fine before,it looks fine now,so its like nothing changed at all).

Bandobras Took wrote:Great, so the fans want:
1) No delay on the map editor;
2) More maps;
3) No delay on patches; and
4) Patches that fix more than just a handful of bugs.

Except, given what you just said, the fans wanted delay so that everything could be finished and polished. And what happens when they delay a map editor so that they can finish and polish it? The fans don't want a delay. Either way, they're not going to win with that list of demands. No delay, but significant and flawless improvements anyway. Yeesh, if the fans give them contradictory requests, they're going to have to pick one eventually.


There is a diference between delaying the whole product and delaying the patches.While delaying the whole game in order to polish it is fine,delaying patches is not.When the final release comes it is expected to be just that,the FINAL release,meaning it needs no fixing.But if it so happenes that a small bug went through,it should be fixed the moment its spotted,and the patch for it released as soon as posible.

Bandobras Took wrote:Because all fans approve of these things?


Ill just say caravans.Check the polls.How many people wanted caravans in?Almost everyone.Even those that think HIV came straight from hell and should be banished forever.

Bandobras Took wrote:Because they couldn't decide to delay other races until an expansion, when they've got a clearer idea of the game balance?


I never said that there have to be dwarves at all cost,just that the fans made briliant proposals.Hopefully not all of those will be overlooked.

Bandobras Took wrote:Of which I do not approve. If they had put it in, I could happily rant about it for the next 5,000 posts and claim that had not listened to the fans because they didn't use my ideas. Just because one cannot see what reason Nival had for not doing something does not mean they had no reason.


Im not saying that everyone loves stack XP,just that it shouldve been considered.Maybe it has,I dont know.But I doubt it.

Bandobras Took wrote:Let them speak for themselves, then. Get a firm testimonial from either crew.

And then ask Ubi's corporate lawyers what they think of the idea.


Ok,let them.I ask now anyone working on WoG and equi,would you be willing to work on some HV features for no money at all if you were asked to by the developers?

Bandobras Took wrote:I have no problems with criticisms; I've made a few myself. It's the manner in which it is done that's not going to make them any more eager to take suggestions.

And given that not everybody agrees with what ought to have been done with Heroes 5, losing hope and become a critic seems more akin to throwing a fit because you didn't get what you wanted.


Lets see...You hope for some of the errors to be fixed from previous sequels,yet the good things to still stay in the game.But during the whole development process you see the old errors reemerging,and those things that were very good simply slip back into the oblivion.The constructive criticism from me disappeared once I saw that all of the problems from HIII are back,with none of them fixed,even though those were fixed in HIV.Thats is not a smart evolution,like they stated.Yes,I am angry.Justfully angry.

Bandobras Took wrote:Correct. Those of us who have no clue what Nival's doing on an average work week have no right to say what Nival's doing on an average work week. If anybody who works at Nival would like to give us a heads up, then we might have something concrete and solid to complain about. Otherwise, "Nival's lazy because I don't get what I want" is the cry of a spoiled child.


You know,there are business standards.Those arent different when it comes to software development or car assembly.

Bandobras Took wrote:Yep. The sarcasm of Thunder Titan is meant to communicate that Ubi didn't do enough with the patch. Or that they released the game too soon, and the patch should have been included with the inital release, pushing back the release date.

Your comment is that as soon as they get enough features that work, they should release.

So which is it? Should Ubi, for example, release the map editor when enough features work, as quickly as possible, or should they delay it past the promised date to make sure that it's polished and finished?

Tell them what the fans want. Speak up.


Again,you are confusing the final game release with the patches.Those two are not the same.While the game needs to be fully polished on its final release with as little bugs as posible,the patches should come out as soon as they are tested.The developers today rely on patching too much,so they think that they can release the game whenever they want and patch it during the next year.Wrong.Its the initial final release that is being sold,and not the patches.

Bandobras Took wrote:Yep. But the fans didn't care about optimization or fixing the ATB or the addition of an Easy difficulty or the toning down of some Campaign Maps. They waved around the artifact descriptions as something Nival was too lazy to do as though that were the important thing. All it would have taken was a little time with the patch to find out that the problem had been fixed.


Yes it is nice that they added the easy difficulty,and that they fixed the bar,but about nerfing the maps I disagree.Those maps were chalenging and they shouldve been made easier just on the newly added easy difficulty.And to use one of your previous arguments:Now everyone liked the nerfing of those maps,I know I didnt.

Bandobras Took wrote:It's a symptom of a much larger problem with the majority of complainers: their unfinching ability to assign factual statements with a complete lack of solid evidence.

Complainers told us artifact descriptions were missing from the patch based on a news release. It apparently never occurred to them to install the patch and see if Nival considered that too trivial to be mentioned in the news release.


Yet there are those of us that complain about the bugs that are still there,or about those that got added.Not everyone complains just for the sake of complaining.

Bandobras Took wrote:Likewise, people assume maliciousness/laziness in a delayed map editor. There's no evidence for this. They assume maliciousness/laziness in a non-delayed release. There's also no evidence for this.


Really?They had time enough to fix mages hat,didnt they?I find that to be poor prioritization.

Bandobras Took wrote:They assume that game is critically bugged because it does not run on their machines. Perhaps mine is the only machine in existence where it runs smoothly, but statistically speaking, I doubt it.


Check the bug thread then.Yes,the game is critically bugged.CivIV works perfectly on mine machine with no patches,yet I still admit the game has a lot of bugs since so many people complained about it.

Bandobras Took wrote:If you read the thread, his complaint was eventually found to be that certain heroes would be weaker through constricted skill selection than others. Then he revealed his ignorance of one of the more basic skills of the Demon Lord. He was complaining without play experience or firsthand observation to back it up. That's not a good way to get the point across.


Those arguments of his were faulty,but the essence of his complaints,the way I see it,is that the skill system is flawed because it is limmited.

Bandobras Took wrote:Oh, I remember the old forums quite vividly. For example, when the first concept art for the Angel came out, and everybody started complaining that it was Anime (which it wasn't, the style comes nearly directly out of the French comic books I've seen while in France), that the Angel was female (there's the crowd that wants something new, all right), that there was overt religious reference (never mind a building in H2 called a Cathedral that produces Crusaders -- no overt religious reference there!). I also remember quite a few maniacs with pet theories who would repeatedly post them until sensible suggestions were drowned out.


I still complain about the inquisitors angels and devils.Angels and devils shouldve never appeared in the first place.Yes,its too much western religion.And the angel is anima.Anima is not just the japanese drawing style.

Bandobras Took wrote:If the fans gave their skills for free, why are you hanging around waiting for a receipt?


Im not waiting for it.

Bandobras Took wrote:If somebody with the best of intentions offers me a basket full of refuse for free, I'm under no obligation to accept. I'd still be very polite in thanking them.


Refuse?Really,reread all of those proposals.Sure,there are dumb ones(biclops :devil: ),but there are briliant ones as well.Besides,its not like everything nival came up with is oh-so-goody-good-beautiful(hell charger,for example).

Bandobras Took wrote:It's wonderful sentimentality to believe that everybody who offers something up for free ought to see their suggestion implemented, but it's not going to result in a good game.


True,but I expect at least the best proposals to appear.It happend with civ,and thats why I praise that game so much.

Bandobras Took wrote:Once we admit that decisions on what to accept and reject have to be made, somebody's going to end up disappointed.

I don't believe any fan makes a suggestion because they think it will be a bad idea for heroes. Of course those who don't see their suggestions implemented are going to think it weakens the game -- they wouldn't have made the suggestions if they didn't think they were an improvement.


Again true.But I am not amongst thoe that complain about my suggestions being not implemented.Im complaining that the best suggestions are not implemented.Chaotic upgrades was not my suggestion,yet the way it got developed in the old table had some very nice things in it.Some fans even went as far as balance it completely for nine races.Sure,a few tweaks were needed for those proposals too,but those were very small tweaks.

Bandobras Took wrote:I personally am rather upset that I can't really play the game with my nephew, because of the explicit nature of Dungeon troops. And everybody in my community who I know plays Heroes feels exactly the same way. But this by no means indicates that Nival is not listening to the fans.

Does the inclusion of a sexpot faction indicate that Nival is ignoring the fans and acting against the best interests of the game by alienating the family/religious crowds?

They even went so far in the patch as to redesign one of the models. Talk about adding insult to injury.

If I were following standard complaint format on Celestial Heavens as it stands, I would be posting in every thread (it doesn't matter the topic) and turn it to a discussion of morality. I would also make startling statements about the sexual preferences and habits of every Nival employee, whether I have direct experience with such or not. I would finish up by, whenever a Nival/Ubi employee posted in this forum, searching his/her comments for any sign of sexual innuendo, and take this as proof positive of my assumptions about their private lives.


Then do.Fight for your beliefes.I for one dont feel anything wrong with a bit obscene dressing(although I do find it idiotic for fighters to dress like that).But if you disagree with that,then say so.If you just shut up no one will know that some people find it immoral.

Bandobras Took wrote:It's not the complaints I'm complaining about. It's the manner, conduct, and abrasive prolixity of those who complain that strikes me as singularly ill-mannered, and ensure that Ubi/Nival will likely bypass CH as a source for ideas in favor of forums where people express complaints in a polite, intelligent manner, and accept denials with good grace and patience.


I never found CH to be impolite,or the complaints to be noninteligent or without any just points.Calling someone lazy,and saying why you think so is not an insult.But calling someone an idiot and never saying why you think that is just a dumb insult.See the difference?

Bandobras Took wrote:Because outrage over a computer game is really rather silly, and outrage against a crushing corporate/economic structure that strangles creativity in favor of profit is probably better handled through politics/revolutionary means than spamming a fansite's forums?

Speaking personally, I've never had an experience where anybody -- myself included, was justified in losing their temper. People getting angry and lashing out were ones incapable of seeing both sides of the story, which is a fairly crippling blindness.


I disagree here.If enough people complain about one thing,it gets changed.Hey,its why HIV is being disregarded in the first place.Its why we never had the forge town.

And though there are people that see just one side,I dont think those people are numerous here.I,and others that dont like HV still admit that there are good things about it.Those that like HV still admit that there are things that need fixing.

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Patch 1.2 News

Postby WretchedGnu » Jul 9 2006, 21:57

I think it's a good thing to keep CivIV in mind when evaluating the "quality control" of *any* $50 computer game, whether it's a TBS or not.

It's easy to excuse mediocre quality with a shrug and a "that's just the way the industry is nowadays." Not so. I've become so inured to shoddy game production I was shocked to see how polished CivIV was straight out of the box.

In all aspects, but epecially in terms of information, interface and AI, CivIV simply blows away H5. I know programming a good AI is no cakewalk, but sloppy information and interface is just a matter of laziness.

If the Civ developers and publishers can do it, so should everyone else be able to.

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Patch 1.2 News

Postby astral76minor » Jul 11 2006, 15:11

Let's start with one problem that could be repaired. In the underground, the hero cannot move into certain places of the map that are NOT BLOCKED. In campaign mode, there is a map called "The Trap" and I noticed movement bugs where I could not get artifacts that were in clear walking distance. This is all in the underground part of the map. Why create a map with artifacts and other power-ups that cannot be reached?

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Postby koganei83 » Jul 14 2006, 7:41

so when is the patch coming? it seems to be taking forever..

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Re: Patch 1.2 News

Postby DaemianLucifer » Jul 14 2006, 7:52

astral76minor wrote:Let's start with one problem that could be repaired. In the underground, the hero cannot move into certain places of the map that are NOT BLOCKED. In campaign mode, there is a map called "The Trap" and I noticed movement bugs where I could not get artifacts that were in clear walking distance. This is all in the underground part of the map. Why create a map with artifacts and other power-ups that cannot be reached?


Actually all of the artefacts can be reached,even in the underground.The problem lies in camera.Although the walls of the underground seem transparent,you cannot click on the spot covered by a wall,so you have to rotate your view quite a bit.


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