First Patch Announced

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First Patch Announced

Postby asandir » May 24 2006, 1:00

Wow! its getting hot in here..... well about it beeing a clone, well I dont think so, and well its much prettyer... and I like pretty things ;)

Keeps the blood warm ;-)

So youre telling me that I need to remember exactly what I did while playing my map yesterday before I saved it,turned of the computer and went outside?Please!And I can handle a game of heroes,than you very much.What I cant handle is this HIII shadow bearing that name.

of course not, but how long could it possibly take you to re-familiarise yourself with where you were at? take a look at where you left your heroes and towns ... i mean, come on ....

and you really need to get over the whole HIII clone, if you actually look at it, it has elements of all the heroes games .... which, gee, kinda makes sense. Yes it does carry over quite a bit from HIII, but IMO this is not necessarily a bad thing, but it also introduces new stuff and the combination of old and new is what is required in a sequel to a franchise like heroes.

Strategy?When did tedious micromanagment become strategy?!

And this game lacks features from HIII as well,not just HIV.It seems like they picked just the worst and connected it with lousy 3D.The only bright light I see is initiative bar,heroes specialisations,abilities and (maybe) story.

since decision making was first thought up, do i create a hero to hunt and gather? do i explore, do i have enough gold to do both? do i really wanna waste time with resource and unit gathering, or is it required for thismap? am i an overkill player, or speed player .... etc etc, it in fact ADDS strategy, especially since creatures and resources do not "stack" week to week, you have to decide whether you are gonna get 'em or not

it may not be the most fun thing to you, but to me it is an essential part of the strategical nature of the game

You mean theres no such thing as a perfect game?True,but there are games I cannot find any flaws in:Starcraft,civilization,myth.The only flaw starcraft has is that its alone.But its maybe better seeing how there almost is no game that didnt get ruined by sequels.The only flaw civ has is that it consumes too much of my time.And the only flaw myth has is that it is so perfectly wrapped up,that there will never be another sequel.

hmmm not entirely correct

i love civ ... but it was not perfect as you say ... i mean since when can a pikeman destroy a battleship in real life?? but that "flaw" did not ruin the game, it added a certain "zest" if you will to attacking a pikeman with the almighty battleship

other civ's have needed patching for various inbalances even thou they were brilliant games (civ iv especially), BUT they were all enjoyable, great even, right off the bat

in HoMM V there are elements that are not perfect either, some AI decisions and a few bits and pieces, but they are not critical IMO, the game is great, i love it and i enjoy it
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Re: First Patch Announced

Postby DaemianLucifer » May 24 2006, 1:34

stefan.urlus wrote:
of course not, but how long could it possibly take you to re-familiarise yourself with where you were at? take a look at where you left your heroes and towns ... i mean, come on ....




Depends on how long I didnt play the maps.There were games Ive continued after a break of a month or so.A quick glance on the kingdom overview told me everithing:How much resource I get,what towns need special atention,what heroes need boosting,etc.A very usefull screen.

stefan.urlus wrote:
and you really need to get over the whole HIII clone, if you actually look at it, it has elements of all the heroes games .... which, gee, kinda makes sense. Yes it does carry over quite a bit from HIII, but IMO this is not necessarily a bad thing, but it also introduces new stuff and the combination of old and new is what is required in a sequel to a franchise like heroes.


Oh really?You know,there is exactly one feature thats completely the same as in HIV,and exactly one feature that resembles it.And both of those features are good.First one is the option to move your heroes without a town,the second one is the skill/ability system.Everything else is from HIII,except for the squares(which is a bad thing),camera(another bad thing),and footsteps(pure cosmetics).There isnt a single feature that was unique to HII.And not everything from HIV was bad.Even you have to agree that caravans and flagable windmills are a good thing.

stefan.urlus wrote:
since decision making was first thought up, do i create a hero to hunt and gather? do i explore, do i have enough gold to do both? do i really wanna waste time with resource and unit gathering, or is it required for thismap? am i an overkill player, or speed player .... etc etc, it in fact ADDS strategy, especially since creatures and resources do not "stack" week to week, you have to decide whether you are gonna get 'em or not



it may not be the most fun thing to you, but to me it is an essential part of the strategical nature of the game




Then why does everybody try to remove tedious micromanagment from strategies?Why dont we have heroes designed specially for minning?It would add strategy you know.Fine,a hero whose only purpose is resource gathering can be considered an addition to strategy,but then there should be a way to automate him.If you have to click 30 times every week just to collect a few extra resources/creatures,its just tedious micromanagment,not strategy.

stefan.urlus wrote:
hmmm not entirely correct



i love civ ... but it was not perfect as you say ... i mean since when can a pikeman destroy a battleship in real life?? but that "flaw" did not ruin the game, it added a certain "zest" if you will to attacking a pikeman with the almighty battleship


Theres a little thing called evolution:Sure,you were able to sink a battleship with a pikeman in first civs,but you cannot do it anymore.Each new sequel of civ becomes more and more complex and realistic.And thats how it was with HoMM.Untill HIV came out completely unfinished.Now,with equi,it can be considered an evolution of previous heroes.The same goes for HV.Maybe in the future,with lots of mods,it may become a worthy sequel.

stefan.urlus wrote:


other civ's have needed patching for various inbalances even thou they were brilliant games (civ iv especially), BUT they were all enjoyable, great even, right off the bat



in HoMM V there are elements that are not perfect either, some AI decisions and a few bits and pieces, but they are not critical IMO, the game is great, i love it and i enjoy it


Im playing civ IV completely unpatched and I found just a few unbalances.Much much less then there were in civ III.So they learned from previous sequels and improved the game without taking any steps backward.Why couldnt ubi/nival do the same thing?

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First Patch Announced

Postby asandir » May 24 2006, 2:04

wow, these are getting long ....

++First one is the option to move your heroes without a town,the second one is the skill/ability system.Everything else is from HIII,except for the squares(which is a bad thing),camera(another bad thing),and footsteps(pure cosmetics).There isnt a single feature that was unique to HII.And not everything from HIV was bad.Even you have to agree that caravans and flagable windmills are a good thing.
++

I believe i mentioned that i did like them ... anyway - the skill/ability system is a pretty major carryover ... and HIII built on HII, which built on HI, so HV has elements of all the games (as it naturally progresses the ideas) ... HIV was big deviation (and i am actually one of the ppl who loves ALL the heroes games, i think HIII is awesome and i also think HIV is awesome, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive)

ok the 3d change is a big thing, the squares ... well i was not a huge fan of the hexagon as a great change thou, so I am not convinced this was a bad move, the camera i like, it is nice to be able to reposition as you see fit - i don;t use it a lot, but for the 3d environment, i think it is required ... i agree that the footsteps are cosmetic, but pretty nonetheless

sequels are a progression, they generally do not deviate from the previous iteration in a major way, HIV excluded, which is why some people bagged it - i enjoyed it for what it was ... so HV IMO had to go either as a progression from HIII with elements of HIV plus new stuff, or as a progression of HIV ... ubi chose the former, and they have done a marvelous job with that decision, had they made a progression from HIV i think that would have been awesome as well

it, for me, is not about which way they went, but how they went about it, and to me, the game same great appeal

as stated before, there are things i would have liked to see, but they are not in it, and so be it - i am playing it for me, and for what it is (not what it could have been)

++Then why does everybody try to remove tedious micromanagment from strategies?++

who's everybody? game developers? cause i don't even see it as micromanagement, i see it as a strategical choice, but call it what you will

++Why dont we have heroes designed specially for minning?It would add strategy you know.Fine,a hero whose only purpose is resource gathering can be considered an addition to strategy,but then there should be a way to automate him.If you have to click 30 times every week just to collect a few extra resources/creatures,its just tedious micromanagment,not strategy.++

if it was automated they should have kept the HIV way, cause it amounts to the same thing (only you have to have a hero do it) the reason, for me, for not automating it, is that you HAVE to do it, if you don't control the actions of your heroes, you may just fail to be able to build that required building this week, and it may cause some pain ... if so, this is good.

it forces the player to make the choice and live and die by the decision, if you make a mistake their should be consequences

++Untill HIV came out completely unfinished.Now,with equi,it can be considered an evolution of previous heroes.The same goes for HV.Maybe in the future,with lots of mods,it may become a worthy sequel.++

You wanna know something ... to this day i have not patched my copy of HIV ... and excepting the annoying memory leak, it is awfully fun to play, to say it was completely unfinished is doing the game a disservice ... I managed to finish it completely without any updates ... just regular restarts ;-)

i believe HV is already a more that worthy successor, and with patches and updates it may become BETTER

++Why couldnt ubi/nival do the same thing?++

well it is their first try at this, so a little slack can be given IMO, and i don't think they have made any backwards steps, just changed some of the decision making that the players need to do
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Re: First Patch Announced

Postby DaemianLucifer » May 24 2006, 2:24

stefan.urlus wrote:wow, these are getting long ....


Indeed.

stefan.urlus wrote:
I believe i mentioned that i did like them ... anyway - the skill/ability system is a pretty major carryover ... and HIII built on HII, which built on HI, so HV has elements of all the games (as it naturally progresses the ideas) ... HIV was big deviation (and i am actually one of the ppl who loves ALL the heroes games, i think HIII is awesome and i also think HIV is awesome, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive)




The skill/ability system isnt a carryover,its just a bit similar to HIV system.Its mostly HIII system,with a twist.But its good nevertheless.HIII is built on HII,true,but it lost a lot for the sake of balance(chaotic upgrades,uniqueness of factions,different cost for upgrading/buying upgraded creatures),so HV draws directly from HIII and not from HII.

stefan.urlus wrote:
ok the 3d change is a big thing, the squares ... well i was not a huge fan of the hexagon as a great change thou, so I am not convinced this was a bad move, the camera i like, it is nice to be able to reposition as you see fit - i don;t use it a lot, but for the 3d environment, i think it is required ... i agree that the footsteps are cosmetic, but pretty nonetheless


The only thing bad about theese squares is their size.If they divided each square into four smaller squares,current BF would be much more acceptable.The camera should be a convinience not a need.You should be able to adjust the view the way you like it,not to be forced to use it every ten seconds.

stefan.urlus wrote:


sequels are a progression, they generally do not deviate from the previous iteration in a major way, HIV excluded, which is why some people bagged it - i enjoyed it for what it was ... so HV IMO had to go either as a progression from HIII with elements of HIV plus new stuff, or as a progression of HIV ... ubi chose the former, and they have done a marvelous job with that decision, had they made a progression from HIV i think that would have been awesome as well



it, for me, is not about which way they went, but how they went about it, and to me, the game same great appeal



as stated before, there are things i would have liked to see, but they are not in it, and so be it - i am playing it for me, and for what it is (not what it could have been)




I dont judge them for choosing HIII over HIV,but for implementing even those stuff that were flawed without a slightest modification(weekly growth,no FoW,chaining,etc)

stefan.urlus wrote:
who's everybody? game developers? cause i don't even see it as micromanagement, i see it as a strategical choice, but call it what you will




If you had a choice between buying a creature dweling or a hero that will collect lets say 4 windmills every week that is strategy.But if you have to move that hero manually every week,that is micromanagment.Every game developer tries to reduce micromanagment.Thats why we have formations and autocasting in RTS games,and thats why we have automation both in RTS and TBS games.

stefan.urlus wrote:
if it was automated they should have kept the HIV way, cause it amounts to the same thing (only you have to have a hero do it) the reason, for me, for not automating it, is that you HAVE to do it, if you don't control the actions of your heroes, you may just fail to be able to build that required building this week, and it may cause some pain ... if so, this is good.



it forces the player to make the choice and live and die by the decision, if you make a mistake their should be consequences


No its not the same thing.Read the above comment.Adding a simple waypoint system would be an excelent way to deal with this.

stefan.urlus wrote:
well it is their first try at this, so a little slack can be given IMO, and i don't think they have made any backwards steps, just changed some of the decision making that the players need to do


So what?Civ was great the first time it appeared.Im not sure sid mayer had lots of expirience before that one.Windows was a huge succes,yet it was microsofts first OS.

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First Patch Announced

Postby asandir » May 24 2006, 3:16

++HIII is built on HII,true,but it lost a lot for the sake of balance(chaotic upgrades,uniqueness of factions,different cost for upgrading/buying upgraded creatures),so HV draws directly from HIII and not from HII++

I would actually say that HIII added a lot to the fundamentals of HII, but in essence it was a linear progression, so i still stand by the fact that HI and HII and HIII form the major part of the linear progression to HV, they all build from each other

HV just has the benefit of some of HIV as well, plus some all new stuff - and that's all i could ever ask for in a heroes sequel (as long as they keep making them anyway)

about the squares ... four to one?? damn, that's a big battlefield, gimme split stacks of shooters and casters and im done thanks!! maybe a tank stack if i have teleport spell

i think that's a bad idea, i actually like the battlefield the way it is, it could be a smidge bigger, but i reckon only a square or two in each direction at most, but im happy with what ubi/nival gave us (and esp glad they increased from demo)

hmmmm, i don't find the camera a problem, i zoom out and leave it like that for most of the game, i only rarely zoom in, or pan down ... just for giggles or the occasional "blackspot", i can live with this easily

++I dont judge them for choosing HIII over HIV,but for implementing even those stuff that were flawed without a slightest modification(weekly growth,no FoW,chaining,etc)++

weekly growth over daily growth ... i don't actually mind either way, quite enjoyed HIV's take on creature growth, but i find that im quite comfortable with weekly growth as well, it changes the strategy somewhat - both daily and weekly have different strategies for expansion etc .... just comes down to how you like to play i guess

++If you had a choice between buying a creature dweling or a hero that will collect lets say 4 windmills every week that is strategy.But if you have to move that hero manually every week,that is micromanagment.Every game developer tries to reduce micromanagment.Thats why we have formations and autocasting in RTS games,and thats why we have automation both in RTS and TBS games.++

actually not .... see the resource and dwelling gathers tend to occur most in the early to mid game, now at this point resources are usually the major factor in strategy, so the strategy becomes a choice between mission objectives ... do you buy a hero just to collect stuff (can you afford that "wasted" gold?) or do you use that purchase to expand in another direction? or do you hoard your gold and use your starting hero? or maybe you get two and expand and resource gather?

it depends on numerous factors, and it IS a strategical decision, imo not micromanagement ... perhaps it could be a bit better managed, but in it's current incarnation, i find it sufficient

perhaps the waypoints are a possibility, there may be other things as well, not sure at this point, as i don't consider it a major burden

++So what?Civ was great the first time it appeared.Im not sure sid mayer had lots of expirience before that one.Windows was a huge succes,yet it was microsofts first OS.++

Civ I, yes it was, the other civ's yeah, more or less

ahhh did you just hold MS up for a comparison there?? hmmm, odd, yeah windows worked, but a smooth package?? i think not, plus windows started as a GUI for MS-DOS and went forward from there .... actually now that i think about it, windows may be a perfect comparison, MS the huge company with the resources it has, created something a bit new on existing ideas (DOS), Ubi/Nival built something new for them from someone elses old ideas ... now i would hold HV against ealry windows any day and it would be pretty capable in terms of stability and features and bugs
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Re: First Patch Announced

Postby DaemianLucifer » May 24 2006, 4:13

stefan.urlus wrote:
I would actually say that HIII added a lot to the fundamentals of HII, but in essence it was a linear progression, so i still stand by the fact that HI and HII and HIII form the major part of the linear progression to HV, they all build from each other


This is the best comparison would be:HII took some three steps forward from HI.HIII took some three steps forward from HII and a step backwards.HIV took some 3 steps forward from HIII but five steps backwards.And HV took those five steps forward from HIV but also some seven steps backwards.So its not quite a linear progresion.

stefan.urlus wrote:
HV just has the benefit of some of HIV as well, plus some all new stuff - and that's all i could ever ask for in a heroes sequel (as long as they keep making them anyway)


Really?It has the benefit of HIV features?How did I miss them I wonder?And your right about what a sequel should have.This one,howerer doesnt have enough.

stefan.urlus wrote:
about the squares ... four to one?? damn, that's a big battlefield, gimme split stacks of shooters and casters and im done thanks!! maybe a tank stack if i have teleport spell


Please!It can be easily balanced.Just bring back LOS,tweak the ranges a bit(put in a maximum range perhaps),and make spellcasters weaker.And its way better than having zombies run across the BF in three turns.

stefan.urlus wrote:
i think that's a bad idea, i actually like the battlefield the way it is, it could be a smidge bigger, but i reckon only a square or two in each direction at most, but im happy with what ubi/nival gave us (and esp glad they increased from demo)


Four in widht,at least.

stefan.urlus wrote:
hmmmm, i don't find the camera a problem, i zoom out and leave it like that for most of the game, i only rarely zoom in, or pan down ... just for giggles or the occasional "blackspot", i can live with this easily


This wouldnt be a problem if underground walls were transparent,both to light and clicks.Its very tedious to navigate those tunnels.

stefan.urlus wrote:
weekly growth over daily growth ... i don't actually mind either way, quite enjoyed HIV's take on creature growth, but i find that im quite comfortable with weekly growth as well, it changes the strategy somewhat - both daily and weekly have different strategies for expansion etc .... just comes down to how you like to play i guess


That would be true if not for the day 7 exploit.

stefan.urlus wrote:
actually not .... see the resource and dwelling gathers tend to occur most in the early to mid game, now at this point resources are usually the major factor in strategy, so the strategy becomes a choice between mission objectives ... do you buy a hero just to collect stuff (can you afford that "wasted" gold?) or do you use that purchase to expand in another direction? or do you hoard your gold and use your starting hero? or maybe you get two and expand and resource gather?



it depends on numerous factors, and it IS a strategical decision, imo not micromanagement ... perhaps it could be a bit better managed, but in it's current incarnation, i find it sufficient



perhaps the waypoints are a possibility, there may be other things as well, not sure at this point, as i don't consider it a major burden


You missunderstood me.Im saying that the manual movement is micromanagment,not the actual buying of heroes.Caravans that would cost money would be way better than manual moved creatures.

stefan.urlus wrote:
ahhh did you just hold MS up for a comparison there?? hmmm, odd, yeah windows worked, but a smooth package?? i think not, plus windows started as a GUI for MS-DOS and went forward from there .... actually now that i think about it, windows may be a perfect comparison, MS the huge company with the resources it has, created something a bit new on existing ideas (DOS), Ubi/Nival built something new for them from someone elses old ideas ... now i would hold HV against ealry windows any day and it would be pretty capable in terms of stability and features and bugs


Sure,it can be on equal ground in terms of stability and bugs,but can it be on equal grounds in terms of inovation and user friendliness?

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Postby asandir » May 24 2006, 5:28

your "comparison" is awfully subjective, if you'd added a IMO, it mighta let it slide, but really that's just one man's opinion .... here's my comparison

HII was a couple of good steps forward from HI
HIII was another coupla good steps in the right direction
HIV was a couple of steps forward and two to the right
HV is a couple of steps left and two forward ...

plotted out it works (almost) linear, hey, but's just my opinion

as for something borrowed from HIV, you already mentioned it, the fundamentals of the skill/ability system, which only underpins the whole development of your heroes come from HIV, the idea is tweaked, but the fundamentals are there

++Four in widht,at least.++

it's like we're haggling .... No more that two!! my final offer!

and are you complaining that zombies are too slow? or too fast? cause imo they are ranged guards, unless an opportunity presents itself to attack the enemies units who have moved in already ...

i'll grant you underground camera problems thou, that is a little annoying

++That would be true if not for the day 7 exploit.++

i've never really had the Day 7 exploit explained to me ... care to enlighten (i prolly know what it is, but don't link it to the "exploit")

++You missunderstood me.Im saying that the manual movement is micromanagment,not the actual buying of heroes.Caravans that would cost money would be way better than manual moved creatures.++

again, i don;t find it to be an onerous task, but one man's paradise is another man's desert as they say ... maybe this could be better implemented, but as i stated before, cause i don't have a real problem with it, i haven't really considered alternatives ... caravans that cost money .... hmmm maybe

++Sure,it can be on equal ground in terms of stability and bugs,but can it be on equal grounds in terms of inovation and user friendliness?++

of course, if we were comparing the correct things, but an analogy is only good if it is correctly based (the os vs game analogy that i called "perfect" was probably a bit wrong - or at least i didn't state within what bands it was "perfect") .... we need to get away from that analogy cause comparing innovation and user friendliness for a Brand New OS using GUI to a sequel of a gaming franchise is always gonna be weighted against the game

however for the purposes of the argument, i think that ubi/nival achieved quite a bit of innovation and user friendliness (although the user friendliness could use some additions)
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First Patch Announced

Postby asandir » May 24 2006, 5:29

as an aside .... notice how we've had this tied up with no other user comments for the past 5 hours??

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Postby ThunderTitan » May 24 2006, 11:31

Might have something to do with the huge scary posts.

What i'd like to know is why H5 is missing half the buttons H3 had.
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Re: First Patch Announced

Postby DaemianLucifer » May 24 2006, 12:50

stefan.urlus wrote:
HV is a couple of steps left and two forward ...


And three steps backwards:no sleep,no kingdom overview,no wait/split buttons,less races,lousier creature style,...

stefan.urlus wrote:
as for something borrowed from HIV, you already mentioned it, the fundamentals of the skill/ability system, which only underpins the whole development of your heroes come from HIV, the idea is tweaked, but the fundamentals are there


Like I already said it just resemles HIV a bit.Besides,all those skills and abilities come directly form HIII with a few new,so except for a similar structure,its nothing like HIV.And aside from that,and the option of no city heroes,its nothing like HIV.No FoW,turn retal,no flaging,no dwelling acumulation,weekly growth,....Its all HIII stuff.And why no windmill flaging will always be a mistery to me.They probably were drunk when they decided not to use it.And why no FoW is another(although a bit lesser)mistery.Every new strategy has it.

stefan.urlus wrote:
it's like we're haggling .... No more that two!! my final offer!


Im saying four because that way you are able to put 7 large stacks on the BF.Its nice that you can put some stacks out of harms way,but not being able to lay your whole army on a clear grassy field? :|

stefan.urlus wrote:
and are you complaining that zombies are too slow? or too fast? cause imo they are ranged guards, unless an opportunity presents itself to attack the enemies units who have moved in already ...


They are too fast.Or better yet,they are slow enough,but the BF is too small.And halwing walkers run as fast as flyers(nightmare vs angel) is very illogical.Also devils being unable to teleport the whole BF is dumb as well.

stefan.urlus wrote:
i've never really had the Day 7 exploit explained to me ... care to enlighten (i prolly know what it is, but don't link it to the "exploit")


Capture a city at day 7(or better yet on day one if you play before your opponent)and on the next day buy all of the creatures.Even if the opponent retakes the city with no loses,hell still be crippled.Now if there was a period of lets say 4 days resistance in which you couldnt buy creatures,but if the opponent recaptured the city he could,it would be ok.In fact,it would be much better like this:If you capture a city with vilage hall you can buy creatures tomorrow,town hall - three days,city hall - 5 days,and if you capture a capital you have to wait 7 days(even though the capitol is ruined).

stefan.urlus wrote:
again, i don;t find it to be an onerous task, but one man's paradise is another man's desert as they say ... maybe this could be better implemented, but as i stated before, cause i don't have a real problem with it, i haven't really considered alternatives ... caravans that cost money .... hmmm maybe


You mean you love to have to move 7 heroes every day manually?Come on!Everyone gets bored with this sooner or later.Its not that hard to make a waypoint system.

stefan.urlus wrote:
of course, if we were comparing the correct things, but an analogy is only good if it is correctly based (the os vs game analogy that i called "perfect" was probably a bit wrong - or at least i didn't state within what bands it was "perfect") .... we need to get away from that analogy cause comparing innovation and user friendliness for a Brand New OS using GUI to a sequel of a gaming franchise is always gonna be weighted against the game



however for the purposes of the argument, i think that ubi/nival achieved quite a bit of innovation and user friendliness (although the user friendliness could use some additions)


I used the windows just to show you how even though unexpirienced at some field,a company can make an excelent product.So you cannot say for ubi/nival "its their first shot,cut them some slack".Its not an excuse!

ThunderTitan wrote: What i'd like to know is why H5 is missing half the buttons H3 had.


You said it yourself once:Because fancy 3D is more importabt.

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First Patch Announced

Postby ToweringAmishPlumber » May 24 2006, 22:14

I have to come down on the side of those who, for whatever reason,
dislike having to send out hero(s) to gather resources every week. If I had to pick out the WORST feature(?), the one thing I truly HATE about Heroes III, it would be resource gathering. It is not strategy, it even goes beyond micromanagement - it is the definition of Tedium!
It is so bad, that when I try to play Heroes III these days, I usually don't make it all the way through a map after several weeks of resource gathering.
Part way through this comment I read all the postings. Even though I received my copy of V today and had promised myself I would try to approach playing it without bias, now I'm not sure I will even bother installing it. From what I've read on this thread, Ubi kept all of the worst features of Heroes III and none of the good (any?) features of Heroes IV. PLEASE, PLEASE Heroes IV fans, keep making maps! You're my only hope, Obi-wan.

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Postby Ethric » May 24 2006, 22:16

Well if you already have the game you should try it. Most people seem to like it, at least you should be amused by the skill system and a few other novelties for a while ;)
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Postby DaemianLucifer » May 24 2006, 22:30

Yes try it.The game deserves at least a chance.

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First Patch Announced

Postby asandir » May 25 2006, 1:01

++And three steps backwards:no sleep,no kingdom overview,no wait/split buttons,less races,lousier creature style,...++

that stuff just never bothered me, i found it to have great features and enjoyable as hell ....

actually DL, this has been great ... but i think im gonna cut and run now ... not because i agree with everything you say, but because i understand why you say MOST of what you say ... i think we are perhaps diametrically opposed on some things, which is fine. I'm not gonna be able to change your mind, and you won't be able to change mine

yes there are things ubi/nival could have added to make the game more enjoyable for you, and probably others for me, however it is how it has been made

good discussion thou, and at least we were able to keep it pleasant ;-)

but i guess i should do SOME work today .... .... .... nah maybe not
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Re: First Patch Announced

Postby DaemianLucifer » May 25 2006, 11:30

stefan.urlus wrote:
actually DL, this has been great ... but i think im gonna cut and run now ... not because i agree with everything you say, but because i understand why you say MOST of what you say ... i think we are perhaps diametrically opposed on some things, which is fine. I'm not gonna be able to change your mind, and you won't be able to change mine


Amen to that.We agree to disagree :devil:

stefan.urlus wrote:
yes there are things ubi/nival could have added to make the game more enjoyable for you, and probably others for me, however it is how it has been made


Thats why plenty of mods will be there.And it seems that HV is the most modable heroes ever.it certanly is a plus.

stefan.urlus wrote:
good discussion thou, and at least we were able to keep it pleasant ;-)


And boost my post count :devious: :devil:

stefan.urlus wrote:


but i guess i should do SOME work today .... .... .... nah maybe not


Ahh...Work.Its so nice when you dont have to :devious: :devil:

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Postby JessieLC » May 26 2006, 15:50

Anyone know when the patch will come out?????And what it will cover???

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First Patch Announced

Postby CloudRiderX » May 26 2006, 19:23

Okay, well I will not bother reading this entire thread, but I get the jist of it. Here's what I have to say:
Concerning 'The Complaining": I totally agree with B.Took. If it weren't for Ubi, we would not have a fifth game of HOMM to enjoy. So why ruin it? There is nothing wrong with a little constructive criticism, that ensures the game comes out better. But complaining non-stop about the game will only do so much, especially, piss Ubi off.

Concerning "H5 relation to H3": Here we go again with the whole 'Heroes V is a clone of H3' thing again. How many times does this have to be restated? H3 was the most successful game in the series. I, personally, think H4 had the most potential, but due to various circumstances, was unable to compete. Instead of always comparing H4 to H3, try comparing H2 to H3. It was a huge jump forward, and I don't know anyone who truly thought H3 was not better than H2, element-wise.(I say that because everyone enjoys playing older games once in a while) Elements introduced into H4 though, of course, were not in H3, but that is not Ubi's fault. H4 had some great features, but the game itself was lacking. So what do you expect Ubi to do? Its a choice between the more successful game. For those of you who stick to your beliefs, there is hope for a H6, so chill. Ubi will probably bring some good H4 ideas back to life in that.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » May 26 2006, 19:32

Its sometimes better not to have a sequel.Im still dreaded because of the fallout tactics,RAII and EEII.

And I dont mind them using HIII as a base.But as a base,not as the walls,windows and furniture as well!All thats different is the roof.Besides,Im complaining about features that were in HIII and are missing here as well(sleep and kingdom overview for example).

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First Patch Announced

Postby CloudRiderX » May 27 2006, 23:23

So what you're saying is you don't like the fact that they used most of H3's ideas, and you don't like the fact that they left out some ideas from H3.(?)
I can't believe you are complaining about things like sleep and kingdom overview. I mean, what a waste of time! They have little significance in the overall gameplay, and the game H5 is intact! I know that you merely used those two as examples, but if those are your examples, then what are your real complaints?
I also don't get what you mean by the walls, roof, and furniture statement because there are so many differences between H3 and H5 right now. Here is a list of the things in H5 that are different from H3:
- New Ghost Mode
- New Dynamic Battle System
- Heroes have their own specfic turn in combat, and can attack enemy units directly
- Some dwellings on the adventure map have more than one type of creature available
- More in-depth skill system
- Every creature has a special ability
- Towns now have 'levels' and 'tiers'
- New 'hero trails'
- Battle not composed of many rounds, but one endless round
- (Due to above note) It is now possible to attack twice before another enemy gets to go due to the new initiative idea
- Each faction has its own unique racial specialization, which can be powered up over time with experience
- Heroes are offered 4 choices for abilities when they level up instead of two (at max for both)
- All three war machines can be bought from a blacksmith, but the other two non-faction machines are for triple price
- When a neutral force 'flees' before a strong army, the hero of that army gets a fraction of the experience for letting them run away
- Presence of special abilities, active and passive, that can be used in combat by the hero, many of which cost no mana points
- The weeks now have different special effects besides just planting new monsters on the adventure map and cutting down creature growth
- Healing Tents can revive units if the heal amount overlaps to a dead unit(s)
- All heroes get to place units wherever they want before battle starts in a given area
There are a lot of things different from H3. Many of them may be somewhat insignificant, but it proves my point. The guys at Nival and Ubisoft have been working their asses off to bring us another HOMM game, one that technically shouldn't even exist, and we should be thankful for what we have. If you think about it, it is a big risk. why would you take over a series of a company that went out of business? Don't you think that series' failure might have contributed to the company's failure? I don't think so in 3DO's case, but they went out of business nevertheless. So why did Ubi pick up this series? Because of us. The fans. Ubi knew that HOMM was a successful series, and that the fan base was dedicated. But if you start judging too harshly now, that's like a slap in the face to them.
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Re: First Patch Announced

Postby DaemianLucifer » May 28 2006, 0:30

CloudRiderX wrote:So what you're saying is you don't like the fact that they used most of H3's ideas, and you don't like the fact that they left out some ideas from H3.(?)


If you simplify like that,yes.But I hate they used bad ideas from HIII(no fow,no windmill flaging,chaining,weekly growth)without a single change(at least they could prevent the day 7 exploit),but they left out some things that were good(sleep for example).

CloudRiderX wrote:
I can't believe you are complaining about things like sleep and kingdom overview. I mean, what a waste of time! They have little significance in the overall gameplay, and the game H5 is intact! I know that you merely used those two as examples, but if those are your examples, then what are your real complaints?


Sleep made your life so much easier.At least dosenz of times I cursed HV for not having it,and when everything sums up,I havent played HV for full 48 hours.And the real complaint is the proper manual,which HIII had.

CloudRiderX wrote:
I also don't get what you mean by the walls, roof, and furniture statement because there are so many differences between H3 and H5 right now. Here is a list of the things in H5 that are different from H3:

- New Ghost Mode

- New Dynamic Battle System


Ok,these two may be nice in MP,but since I mostly play SP(hotseat included),these two dont affect me.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- Heroes have their own specfic turn in combat, and can attack enemy units directly


It is nice that they made heroes less of a gods they were in HIII,but theyre still invunerable,and that bothers me.Als,the hero attack is just a spell that costs 0 spellpoints,so thats nothing new.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- Some dwellings on the adventure map have more than one type of creature available


It seems that they replaced all of the higher level dwelings with these,so actually there are less dwelings now.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- More in-depth skill system


Yes,this one is a nice addition,and I like it.Although most abilities are just skills we had,but this time with just one level.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- Every creature has a special ability


Not true.Blade dancers,for example,dont have it.Besides,large creature isnt a speciall.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- Towns now have 'levels' and 'tiers'


Please!Tears are just creature levels,which we had before.And levels I wellcome as a good anti rush strategy.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- New 'hero trails'


This is pure cosmetics,and bad one no less.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- Battle not composed of many rounds, but one endless round


Ah,the initiative bar!The only true innovation.I aplaud nival on this one.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- (Due to above note) It is now possible to attack twice before another enemy gets to go due to the new initiative idea


- Each faction has its own unique racial specialization, which can be powered up over time with experience


Just another skill.The fact that it is tied to the towns makes it a bit imbalanced though,since heaven can use half of their special(retaliate)at any time,yet sylvan needs lots of money to activate theirs.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- Heroes are offered 4 choices for abilities when they level up instead of two (at max for both)


No,they are offered two skills and two abilities.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- All three war machines can be bought from a blacksmith, but the other two non-faction machines are for triple price


A nice addition.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- When a neutral force 'flees' before a strong army, the hero of that army gets a fraction of the experience for letting them run away


Yet there is no option of quick fighting the fleeing stack,so this is just half of solution.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- Presence of special abilities, active and passive, that can be used in combat by the hero, many of which cost no mana points


Abilities are just skills that have prerequests and one level.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- The weeks now have different special effects besides just planting new monsters on the adventure map and cutting down creature growth


And those effects are sometimes really anoying and are quite imbalanced.I had a week of festivals followed by a week of plauge.Combine this with the AI having infinite resources,and Im a weeks growth behind.And what about unfinished week of forgery?Upgraded creatures still cost the same,yet if you buy basic creature and upgrade it it costs less.Talking about speeding up gameplay.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- Healing Tents can revive units if the heal amount overlaps to a dead unit(s)


This is only if you have the first aid ability.

CloudRiderX wrote:
- All heroes get to place units wherever they want before battle starts in a given area


Yet you cannot place 7 large stack on the field(Its too small).And during the siege,the attacker can place all of his units,yet the defender cant,becuse the middle tower is in the way.

CloudRiderX wrote:
There are a lot of things different from H3. Many of them may be somewhat insignificant, but it proves my point. The guys at Nival and Ubisoft have been working their asses off to bring us another HOMM game, one that technically shouldn't even exist, and we should be thankful for what we have. If you think about it, it is a big risk. why would you take over a series of a company that went out of business? Don't you think that series' failure might have contributed to the company's failure? I don't think so in 3DO's case, but they went out of business nevertheless. So why did Ubi pick up this series? Because of us. The fans. Ubi knew that HOMM was a successful series, and that the fan base was dedicated. But if you start judging too harshly now, that's like a slap in the face to them.


Ok,if you nitpicked on the different details,let me nitpick on them as well:
Automatic towers when defending a town.
Automatic catapults.
Fort and its upgrade effect creature growth(Id prefer if this was mixed with town hall)
7 creatures in every race.
Each creature has exactly one upgrade.
An upgrade is always better,except in the case of peasant.
Weekly growth.
Dwellings dont acumulate creatures,but boost your town growth by 1.
Windmills cant be flaged.
Level one dwellings give free creatures.
No FoW.
Hero chaining.
Heroes are invunerable,and unaffacted by spells.
Imps cannot drain creatures.
No description for creature specials.
Puzzle map.
Only grail is being burried.
Etc,etc.

And here are more stuff different from HIII,but those that are bad:
6 towns.
1 hero class in each town.
No description for terrains(you can sometimes get confused on what terrain youre on).
Confusing camera.
Gargoyle :disagree:
Fewer terrains.
No kingdom overview.
No map overview(that minimap isnt very detailed sometimes,and somethings are easy to miss).
Etc,etc.

This title is extremly popular,and it will always sell good,even if the game is average(and it is now),so it was a wise investment to buy it,but they didnt exactly bust their asses(look at the manual and the bugs).


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