Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

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iLiVeInAbOx05
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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » Aug 13 2016, 19:50

I think if it's based on the official map of Axeoth, there should be no issues, no? In any case, they seemed to have ignored some of the details from the story, so it's hard to draw the line between "official" and "fan" art, since the official map doesn't follow what's in the story.

Either way, if it's a hand drawn map, that allows for some error. The map could have been an early creation based on exploration and verbal input from others, drawn up by Emilia Nighthaven or one of the other H4 characters early on in Axeoth's history ;)

That might be kind of cool for some more H4 art, maps or drawings from the perspective of different characters or factions.. I wish I had some artistic talent, lol :D

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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Erwinner » Aug 13 2016, 20:02

well, it is just my personal opinion though, I state it for what it's worth, but I don't want it to force it down the neck or dissuade anyone from doing what they want, unless they happen to agree lol

but I think, new pieces of art of any of the heroes or creatures or towns would not be as easy for someone to pick holes in later on as a map of Iranese or Axeoth, because we just unfortunately don't have the information available to know what Iranese or Axeoth looks like in detail, but we do know what the heroes and creatures and towns look like lol

there were also renders here, which could be borrowed or worked from lol

I think Ubisoft does have high quality art from the original game too btw, such as high quality hero portraits, because they released some of it for Heroes 7 Lost Tales of Axeoth, not that they would be likely to share now they're on lockdown though lol

iLiVeInAbOx05 wrote:I think if it's based on the official map of Axeoth, there should be no issues, no? In any case, they seemed to have ignored some of the details from the story, so it's hard to draw the line between "official" and "fan" art, since the official map doesn't follow what's in the story.


I didn't see though, anywhere where it ignores the story or doesn't follow the story, can you clarify? lol

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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Karmakeld » Aug 13 2016, 21:16

Erwinner wrote:there were also renders here, which could be borrowed or worked from lol

I think Ubisoft does have high quality art from the original game too btw, such as high quality hero portraits, because they released some of it for Heroes 7 Lost Tales of Axeoth, not that they would be likely to share now they're on lockdown though lol


Never seen those before. Thanks. Also fun to see some of the original ideas (like the imprisoned animation).
Well Marzhin was kind enough to share all of the high quality portraits with some VIP fans, they however never seemed to share them with the communities??!! (I will however get to that eventually - both iLiVe.. and I have them).

It's kinda funny we refer to it, as the 'official' map. Lets just think about what makes it official. Is it because Ubisoft released it, or becaused it was shared by H4 artist Jennifer Bullard? To my knowledge it was never released officially, when the game came out, but didn't appear until years later.
The same goes with Terry Ray. Would anyone claim the two expansions aren't official, due to Terry not being the author? It's a fact they're not linked with the main stories, but they're part of the official releases.
Marzhin's LoTA got an 'official M&M content' stamp by Ubisoft, although clearly being fan-fiction. His last chapter includes (references to) Baron Von Tarkin and Mysterio the Magnificent (WoW), does this increase WoW's importance in any way or it's just Ubi trash? And what about the Lost Tales.. I asume most would consider them to be official, although released by Ubisoft more than a decade after H4, as they were written by Terry Ray, but then what about his idea that Waerjack, Lysander and Gauldoth are brothers, is that to be considered official? He stated he played with the idea, but an official story has never been released actually stating so.
(btw. I will make a separate post, compared the HQ portraits of the first two for compare).

The Restoration of Axeoth team, who are working on H4 versions of the Unity and Every Dog.. campaigns, are basing their work on what is considered official stories, written by Terry Ray, but as it's a team of fans making the maps, so it's part fan-fiction.
My point being, this many years after the release, and with NWC not being around to confirm, approve or whatever, then
iLiVeInAbOx05 wrote:it's hard to draw the line between "official" and "fan" art,

Dalai wrote:I think it makes sense to have all the continents. Even if someone doesn't have TGS, for instance, it doesn't mean Lodwar isn't out there.

:yes:

But I also acknowledge Erwinner's point. In order to make a fulfilling map, one would have to get in contact with former employees and try to find out if Lodwar and Rysh had been placed in relation to Iranese and perhaps learn about sizes and shapes, but I doubt that we'll ever get these info, if they were indeed ever discussed (it could be, no official map were ever released for a reason, simply 'coz it was never done or fully finished).
I agree anything else would be pure fan-fiction, but like iLive suggested, it could be rough drawings by someone from Iranese or whereever.
Continents could be drawn at the map edges and the edges could've been torn off, displaying only what we know, although placement would still be a guess.
If it's a matter of labeling it 'Fan-Faction', then I'd be fine with that.
Alternatively I guess another main menu could be made, for those who would consider such a map, fan-faction with no right to feature the main menu of a new released fan made mod.
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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Karmakeld » Aug 13 2016, 21:28

iLiVeInAbOx05 wrote:I think if it's based on the official map of Axeoth, there should be no issues, no? In any case, they seemed to have ignored some of the details from the story, so it's hard to draw the line between "official" and "fan" art, since the official map doesn't follow what's in the story.


Erwinner wrote: I didn't see though, anywhere where it ignores the story or doesn't follow the story, can you clarify? lol


I can't recall all story details exactly, like xx lies to the east of yy, but it's seems odd that Palaedra, Great Arcan and Nekross are neighboring nations, when there's an ocean between the two of them. The only thing connecting them, is Great Arcan between Palaedra and Nekross. Also I don't see where the region of the Wheel, which is mentioned in some of the stories, is supposed to be located. It's said to be center to Palaedra, Nekross and Great Arcan, but neither of the nations wishes to claim it, in order to not break the peace. I recall the region is described as being overrun by rivers, making it suitable for a large amount of water wheels, thus giving it the name of The Wheel.
Dispite being fan-fiction, Marzhin's map actually features this region.
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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Erwinner » Aug 13 2016, 22:13

just for the sake of argument, personally I think it's official, at least as far as Heroes 4, if NWC made it or used it, unless they suggested otherwise, so all of that stuff is official to me except LotA and the fan maps, I don't say H4 expansions are not unofficial or non canon or anything, but just a bit irrelevant lol

though I agree that can be philosophical matter and up to interpretation, but some things are very clearly fan fiction or fan art lol

the goal for a great mod to me, and Equilibris has done this through its history, is to blend in as well with the official stuff the best it possibly can so you wouldn't know the difference, for instance the adventure map objects in Equilibris screenshots do that seamlessly lol

Karmakeld wrote:I can't recall all story details exactly, like xx lies to the east of yy, but it's seems odd that Palaedra, Great Arcan and Nekross are neighboring nations, when there's an ocean between the two of them. The only thing connecting them, is Great Arcan between Palaedra and Nekross. Also I don't see where the region of the Wheel, which is mentioned in some of the stories, is supposed to be located. It's said to be center to Palaedra, Nekross and Great Arcan, but neither of the nations wishes to claim it, in order to not break the peace. I recall the region is described as being overrun by rivers, making it suitable for a large amount of water wheels, thus giving it the name of The Wheel.
Dispite being fan-fiction, Marzhin's map actually features this region.


isn't it if you look at the mapwith the overlays by the bloke Corlagon, isn't it the place just on the south bit of Palaedra there, with the rivers streaming all over the place from the middle, that's what that map in the Wheel looked anyway lol

I checked back the text too with the map editor, it doesn't say anywhere about Nekross or Great Arcan being near the Wheel, just Palaedra, it says it's very close to Palaedra which fits that map lol

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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » Aug 13 2016, 22:24

I was hoping I wouldn't have to go back and read all the texts again, but I guess I do :) Not a bad thing though, since the stories are actually pretty good and the texts are all bundled here :)

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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Avonu » Aug 14 2016, 5:35

Karmakeld wrote:In order to make a fulfilling map, one would have to get in contact with former employees and try to find out if Lodwar and Rysh had been placed in relation to Iranese and perhaps learn about sizes and shapes, but I doubt that we'll ever get these info, if they were indeed ever discussed (it could be, no official map were ever released for a reason, simply 'coz it was never done or fully finished).

Actially we know a little about how lands from HoMM4 and MM9 were related:

The new world of Might & Magic is called Axeoth. Might & Magic IX takes place in a region called Chedian, on the continent called Rysh. We’re across an ocean and several thousand miles away from the continent Heroes 4 will be using.


And here is Tim Lang's map of Rysh.

EDIT:
Christian Vanover wrote:The Gathering Storm's campaigns can be placed anywhere along the timeline, as they are independent of storylines that have been previously mentioned. The second expansion's campaigns will take place after the events of The Gathering Storm, though in a different part of the world.

Axeoth is a big place, and there is plenty left to explore. Might and Magic IX and Heroes IV barely scratched the surface.


IIRC there was also an info about map of Axeoth (somewhere here posted on Round Table), created by NWC team for purpose of their games but I can't find that post now.
And maybe it was about Iranese map but on the other hand I think this quote spoke about actual Axeoth map with continents for all three games (HoMM4, MM9, LoMM).

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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby XEL II » Aug 14 2016, 17:29

Actually, TGS takes place a fair amount of time after the Reckoning, some time during or after the vanilla HoMM4 campaigns. Dogwoggle is present, and the Unity magic system has already been adapted by spellcaster, magic being divided into 5 schools. So, TGS takes place after Unity and Every Dog Has Its Day campaigns.

WoW fits very well as ocurring some time after TGS, just as Christian mentioned.
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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Karmakeld » Aug 14 2016, 21:56

XEL II, that makes good sense.

Erwinner: I've searched the texts of the three campaigns of Life, Order and Death and I have to admit, it seems like my memory has likely been influenced by Marzhin's fan map. I couldn't find words that described the Wheel as being placed between the three nations. (I did find mentioning of Asp island in Emilia's campaign, which isn't mapped.)

So if we return to the topic, should the map simply be a hand drawn, medieval style copy of the official map, featuring creatures and icons matching the stories (leaving out TGS and WoW continents, as a map displaying these, can't be found atm. - most seem to be in favor of this solution anyway). I would've loved a world map, but I can live with a modified version of the official map, using the borderlines of the NWC version.

@Dalai, she planned to do it A3 size, instead of A4, as that would leave more room for better details. I guess the 12,5% top/bottom still applies, as being expendable. I'll make sure sides can be cut aswell.
If ppl. can approve of this, I could use some help, pointing out known landscapes etc., so I don't have to dig into all of the campaign maps myself.
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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Erwinner » Aug 14 2016, 22:46

hey XEL II mate good to see you man, that's a great point actually about the time,
though isn't it a bit weird, that everyone in Heroes agreed to that new Genevieve magic system and pcked it up so quickly, I mean all those wizards Bob fights must have got up very early each morning to become big masters of all that new magic so fast lol

@karmakeld, I think actually in each campaign, they never or almost never even mention the other kingdoms from the other campaigns, except in Gauldoth's campaign, like a rule of thumb, like in Lysander's campaign never even mentions Great Arcan or Nekross because they didn't exist yet, so it got left pretty vague where everything is lol

do you know which map the Asp isle was in mate, because in the map, you see some details like the very small islands and the terrains like snow are broad or vague, which is why it's not perfect, but based on overlay, the map fits the campaign lol

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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Karmakeld » Aug 14 2016, 23:29

@Erwinner, I think you're right. The time-line makes it a necessity I guess, as it makes no sense to refer to nations, that hasn't been founded yet. (it's just been years since I've last read them, so I only remember the major parts, not all the details).
I skimmed the three campaigns, as mentioned above, searching for certain words, and they all have references to near by regions and or areas, but never in more specific details. Most of the parts could likely be considered to be located within, what would become their nations borders or neighboring region, which would've been unnamed/unfounded at the time.
The Asp Isle is mentioned in the 5th map. In one of the first texts and later on in a quest. You can look for it in the campaign text My guess is, it would be located at the top of the Pirien Isles, maybe.
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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Dalai » Aug 15 2016, 12:33

@Dalai, she planned to do it A3 size, instead of A4, as that would leave more room for better details. I guess the 12,5% top/bottom still applies, as being expendable. I'll make sure sides can be cut aswell.
Every A[N-1] format has the shorter size doubled comparing to the A[N], but size ratio remains thew same - 0.7. That's very convenient, so almost all math applies. 9mm become 13mm. 12.5% remain the same. Don't cut anything though, that extra space may be useful.

You can make a schematic "map" for the future picture and put it below actual "canvas" sheet. All "borders" will be visible.
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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Karmakeld » Aug 15 2016, 13:59

Don't worry, we won't be cutting anything. Perhaps a bad choice of word, but I meant put less important stuff on the edges, so they can either be cut or covered by menues or similar, without covering important parts.
She has a 'light-board' which is quite handy for the task, so getting the borders right, shouldn't be an issue.

I could still use some help, pointing out known landscapes, as well as any campaign details that could be useful in regards of objects to place on the map. In Emilia's campaign, she mentions her western border being raided by Barbarians. She ends up fighting the Barbarian leader as well as two other warlords. So campaigns details like these, that could help fill out the map, would be much appreciated.
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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby cjlee » Aug 15 2016, 16:46

For stuff like maps and character portraits, I suggest you just do them / do up the concept before looking for the artists.

Even if your drawing is Horrendous and in black and white, that's fine.

there are many good artists out there who won't volunteer for an intimidating looking project at the start, but once they start seeing the concepts, they will think: I can easily do better. Then they will start submitting their work. Probably no single artist will submit a lot of graphics, but each will submit at least a few that they are good at doing.

The main drawback is that we wind up with many drawing styles. Some purists may object.

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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Dalai » Aug 15 2016, 18:52

True. "I can do better" is for some reason more powerful than just "I can do it". It's some sort of non-aggressive competitiveness, I think.
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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby iLiVeInAbOx05 » Aug 15 2016, 19:24

I'll do what I can to help where I can Michael.

Has it been decided to just feature the Iranese continent from the standard H4 campaigns, and base it on the official map?

Dalai, what do you think?

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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Erwinner » Aug 15 2016, 21:58

@karmakeld
I had a look at the mission, and that mission and the asp isle is actually there on that overlays map, if you look again lol

here was the overlay, if you missed it lol

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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Karmakeld » Aug 16 2016, 9:03

Thanks Derrick. Glad I can help put more tasks on your ever growing to-do list ;)
It seems to be an easier task, simply sticking to the Iranese continent, as well as it won't bring up the issue of fan-fiction being part of it.
But it'll be more like the Jennifer Bullard/nwc map, with borders drawn up.

@Erwinner. Guess you could say I missed it.. by a loooong shot :embarrased: (I currently don't have access to the campaign map via the editor, as they reside on the harddrive of my crashed pc, but I guess I should've looked at the map, before guessing), anyway thx for the clarification.

But I will need to find them all again (the campaign maps). Having easy access to all of the maps, will make it easier to place story related objects.
Like Dalai's suggestion of using in game objects, like Trees of Knowledge, rainbows etc. I personally would love the map to feature story related objects, like the 5 towers of power and the tomb of Sir Korbert :-D
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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Dalai » Aug 16 2016, 18:54

iLiVeInAbOx05 wrote:Dalai, what do you think?
Now I think I am not the most knowledgeable person on the subject, to put it mildly :D

I think all continents should be there, but I REALLY do not insist :D Let's say I'm 51% for all continents and 49% for Iranese only. :)
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Re: Heroes 4 HD mod - Artists needed

Postby Karmakeld » Aug 16 2016, 20:06

To put it in other words, you're 51% for Erwinner (and others) giving you and the Equilibris team a hard time :tired: you're a brave man, Dalai ;)
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