Contents Wanted

Discussions about the latest news in the Might and Magic community.

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HeroOfPunk
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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby HeroOfPunk » Mar 3 2016, 9:53

Salamandre wrote:
HeroOfPunk wrote:In the beginning when we made maps, we got a lot of response, we had playtesters, people commented our work and gave quick feedback. It was great fun, but as you are saying Kalah, it seems like people disappeared. I do miss those glory days that led to the joy and fun of making maps.


And I was one of them, also did a walkthrough of your first campaign because you guys had potential. But then you released other maps, which were in no way better or different than previous, while all top mapmakers try to open another door each time. Every month, there are 20-50 new H3 maps submitted to maps4heroes, every other month one top map is detailed in Heroes Community, with screens, strategies and solutions. If you want people interested and commenting your maps, you have to keep yourself informed, play or study new maps, then, if the creative fiber teases you, try to apply new content of what you learned in your own maps, after filtering through your own sensibility.

Or just design maps because this is fun for you. And accept that good maps are commented while mediocre maps are ignored. Because there is a large choice, now.


I too would like to give a reply to this.
I find it quite hard to think that it would be the same content (unless you mean that it refers to the universe of Sighisoara?), due to the simple fact that there was 3 people mainly (me, Yurian and Maygwan) working on campaign 1. The map was mainly swamp, the storyline was a totally different one too.
In Campaign 2, we mainly had Yurian. We had more varying terrains, different factions, a new storyline. What do you want us to do? Install WoG and paint the map in those 5000 extra objects?

Yet, I do understand you to some extent, MoS2 may not have been as good as our first campaign, that is why we have worked extremely hard to get new followers to try our old campaigns. We have asked them to bash us and tell us what needs to be better.
A lot of people found it hard to critique most things. But we have gotten some very good feedback.

Masters of Sighisoara 3 is a total remake I would like to say, we got a whole bunch of new factions, new characters, new stories and new ways of thinking when it comes to designing maps. I would like to say that the new way of thinking comes from me doing a bit more of the design of the actual maps while Yurian keeps polishing, balancing and grammar checking.
We also take a new approach on how we portrait our Heroes. We took one step towards a more emotional and "getting to know your character" in MoS2 with Nagraelle and others sharing more of their inner thoughts, but MoS3 is in a whole different level.

At the same time, we are looking at a stand alone game that is in planning stage currently. And oh yes, we are also now giving the player more in depth info on the lore and on the overall world. So I think you should give it a try, as Yurian mentioned, Q2 will mark it¨s release.
Until then, please critique our work with some constructive feedback so that we can improve and get better, instead of just saying "it's all the same."

Thank you,
HoP

Creator of the Masters of Sighisoara Project!

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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Kalah » Mar 3 2016, 9:59

Projects regarding the old games are of course very good, but we really do need to get some coverage of the current game (the thing I really miss is stats pages), otherwise there is no future for this site.
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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby HeroOfPunk » Mar 3 2016, 13:37

I wish I could help with that, but due to time I have not been able to even play MMHVII... One would think that Ubisoft could release those tables, I think they should have it documented?

Many people I talk to barely know about the newer games unfortunately.
Heroes 2 and 3 I believe will be the ones that are forever printed in the minds of gamers who hear about the series. A lot of people know about the original RPG's, but most times when you even say "Might and Magic", Heroes comes to mind.

I had my hopes up a bit when the HD version was released, it could've been good, but without expansions... Well.

I have actually secretly tried to contact the dev team about some Heroes-related stuff, no success so far though...
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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Karmakeld » Mar 3 2016, 19:07

Well both this site and mapmakers of the older games depends on the help of voluntiers, be it help with new content or valuable feedback. I'd hate to see this site end up like that of my fav. band. They used to have a vibrant forum and equally active chat, but the past few year, the monthly number of posts can be counted on 1 hand. So far that fortunately isn't the case for CH, but for the future of the site, I hope that some of the H7 fans, will contribute with contents..
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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Salamandre » Mar 3 2016, 22:57

HeroofPunk and Yurian,

First, to remove any ambiguity, I consider playing or designing things for Heroes game as a hobby, a personal relaxation. Thus I don't really have critics to preach about this or that, up to the player to invest from his/her personal free time the amount necessary to what he desires to achieve. Then the community will reward him, or ignore, we have no power on the result.

My first answer was connected to Kalah's request for maps walkthroughs, and then HoP's answer about people being less interested. This is not true. In maps4heroes, good ans challenging maps are commented every day, in HC some very complex walkthroughs are running right now, for our full delight.

For example, Here and, more recently, Here, still running

I have no constructive criticism -as HoP requires, as there is no recipe for doing good maps, all is in the eye of the beholder. However, H3 is quite old game and mapmakers dug almost everything that could be discovered inside, then the editor had been used to 150% of its extent -by 150% I mean various combinations until a new landscape effect, not used before, is achieved . Therefore is rather easy to differentiate maps using poorly the editor, maps using poorly the combat system, then maps which will shine for decades because they go deeper when creating a challenging AI, when creating a new colors palette, in the transcendence of an editor revealing itself very complex when your goal is the absolute beauty, the perfect structure holding story, design and action. You know, the kind of map where each turn you complete makes you feel like you are better than previous, that you solved an important puzzle, uncovered some unseen plot. The "one more turn" pathology.

And Celestial Heavens is not stranger to that. By the past, it hold an exceptional event, BenBird (top chinese player) writing a 50 pages detailed walkthrough of Way Home, Here. Then he wrote a 30 pages about Wayfarer Here -now pictures are gone; Wayfarer being considered as the pinnacle of mapmaking achievements in Heroes 3. There is much to learn from those walkthroughs, so much that the game and the editor look now as a new Heroes game, but also require more time, more doubts, more interrogations, more studies. But also way more interesting and exciting. A map deserving its walkthrough is a map where the multiple paths and solutions to this or that are not so easy to uncover for the causal player, thus an experienced one takes the challenge.

So please forgive me if I sounded pretentious. To say the truth, I am rather used to this, people often think that I try to prove I am better in my homilies, while all I do is acting towards other people works as I do towards mines, with a scanning eye, with the desire to be literally blown by beauty, by perfection seek and by author's original creativity. Or in the maps you uploaded, guys, I felt and observed a very concrete limit in both editor use and AI handling.

This is what I meant when I wrote "they are all same". And ofc, all I write is my opinion. :jester:

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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby HeroOfPunk » Mar 4 2016, 13:54

Salamandre wrote:HeroofPunk and Yurian,

First, to remove any ambiguity, I consider playing or designing things for Heroes game as a hobby, a personal relaxation. Thus I don't really have critics to preach about this or that, up to the player to invest from his/her personal free time the amount necessary to what he desires to achieve. Then the community will reward him, or ignore, we have no power on the result.

My first answer was connected to Kalah's request for maps walkthroughs, and then HoP's answer about people being less interested. This is not true. In maps4heroes, good ans challenging maps are commented every day, in HC some very complex walkthroughs are running right now, for our full delight.

For example, Here and, more recently, Here, still running

I have no constructive criticism -as HoP requires, as there is no recipe for doing good maps, all is in the eye of the beholder. However, H3 is quite old game and mapmakers dug almost everything that could be discovered inside, then the editor had been used to 150% of its extent -by 150% I mean various combinations until a new landscape effect, not used before, is achieved . Therefore is rather easy to differentiate maps using poorly the editor, maps using poorly the combat system, then maps which will shine for decades because they go deeper when creating a challenging AI, when creating a new colors palette, in the transcendence of an editor revealing itself very complex when your goal is the absolute beauty, the perfect structure holding story, design and action. You know, the kind of map where each turn you complete makes you feel like you are better than previous, that you solved an important puzzle, uncovered some unseen plot. The "one more turn" pathology.

And Celestial Heavens is not stranger to that. By the past, it hold an exceptional event, BenBird (top chinese player) writing a 50 pages detailed walkthrough of Way Home, Here. Then he wrote a 30 pages about Wayfarer Here -now pictures are gone; Wayfarer being considered as the pinnacle of mapmaking achievements in Heroes 3. There is much to learn from those walkthroughs, so much that the game and the editor look now as a new Heroes game, but also require more time, more doubts, more interrogations, more studies. But also way more interesting and exciting. A map deserving its walkthrough is a map where the multiple paths and solutions to this or that are not so easy to uncover for the causal player, thus an experienced one takes the challenge.

So please forgive me if I sounded pretentious. To say the truth, I am rather used to this, people often think that I try to prove I am better in my homilies, while all I do is acting towards other people works as I do towards mines, with a scanning eye, with the desire to be literally blown by beauty, by perfection seek and by author's original creativity. Or in the maps you uploaded, guys, I felt and observed a very concrete limit in both editor use and AI handling.

This is what I meant when I wrote "they are all same". And ofc, all I write is my opinion. :jester:



Yes, that is what I mean, I want you to look with the scanning view, all our opinions and thoughts are different. While we can't please everyone, we want to please as many as possible. I know for sure that I am not stuck in the same way, and I am learning along the way to create more beautiful looking maps.
While I do sometimes enjoy maps like the ones you show, we are also a bit bound by staying true to the Sighisoara continent.
This is somewhat limiting to us due to the environments and fully staying away from certain creatures due to "lore".

However, I assure you that Campaign 3 will offer various new things, as I mentioned, I have been trying to play around a bit with the maps designs etc.

Also, benbird actually covered our maps as well, the disapearance of those images are a tragic loss to the community according to me.

On another note, we are actually in the planning stage of an actual Sighisoara game. It will be in between our third campaign that draws ever so near to completion, and the 4th campaign, still in planning progress.

While we may not offer the most unique maps when it comes to designing the maps, I think we most of the times manage to get a natural look on our maps, with a lot of weight put on the storyline.

Under, I decided to put in some pictures to show you what I mean! :)

Image

Using a run down city and going to take a new approach to using some new ways of designing.

Image
Cetrix, capitol of Radria. Changes still being made.

Image
Using some creatures as spies and buildings etc. Still not final version either! :)
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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby markkur » Mar 4 2016, 20:42

It's been since H5 TotE that we've had <imo> a successful game but even that release was not optimal. I came to the scene late and by the time the game was polished most contributors had moved on. I then spent untold hours helping Q and also here at CH trying to put some life into the H5 arena by offering map-making help, PRT assistance etc. but then I gave-up, we really need a very good release. It seems to me, the only reason HoMM-franchise has not folded after two not so good releases, is the youngsters that buy games like they buy their burgers; the eat and quickly moved on to other games.

The only reason HC is doing "ok" is it's a hugely off-topic forum that has HoMM gaming on the side. I posted a very serious life-topic here "If Pain WAs Purple" and at last check I got zero response. I mention this "only" for the following reason; I think times have changed and you really need to bolster the "other activities aspect".

Don't misunderstand me, I very much enjoy a totally dedicated site but the fact is, much of what I value and enjoy is deader than a doornail. <damnit!> For the moment, I'm content myself with sharing conversation with other Homm'ers life topics but hopefully that will change to give us something to mutually engage and have some fun again. I enjoy H2-5 but it's old stuff now and we really need something new to talk about. Until then maybe targeting the Forum would help CH survive but I don't know if it would matter or not...what a drag the new gaming-world is!

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Cheers all

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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Super Goober » Mar 10 2016, 0:56

I can share my story of what happened in a Might and Magic fan project called Children of the Void and how I met three of the original developers from New World Computing.

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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Super Goober » Mar 10 2016, 0:59

Super Goober wrote:I can share my story of what happened in a Might and Magic fan project called Children of the Void and how I met three of the original developers from New World Computing.


Here is a drawing from Shelly Garcia, Heroes 2 artist. It's a gift from her to Celestial Heavens and the Heroes community in general, after I showed her just how much her work is appreciated 20 years later.

Image

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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Karmakeld » Mar 11 2016, 7:05

Amazing how much details you can put into small drawings of an old game like H2.
Even though it might not be the exact content Kalah is requesting, I think you should send in your story to CH. Who doesn't like a good story :)

I can only agree with Markkur about the releases, at least from watching from the sideline. I guess faction tactics and strategies have been discussed to the degree that there's nothing new to add to the older games and from I read/sensed with H7, there seems to be little faction strategy, as most factions are really equivalent to each other in their troops. Also it seems you quickly end up using the same strategy/spells for 9 out of 10 battles, and if that is indeed the case, I guess there is little use for strategy guides, how ever sad it may be.
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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Salamandre » Mar 11 2016, 19:32

Karmakeld wrote:I guess faction tactics and strategies have been discussed to the degree that there's nothing new to add to the older games


This isn't accurate, at least for H3 there are still new strategies discovered, as my previous links show. Then there is single player and then there is multiplayer, or MP players from top of rankings usually have a personal way of playing, so there is always some way to improve by watching videos from.

But while a single player map walkthrough can be considered interesting content, commenting a multiplayer strategy is kinda boring, as the strategies allowed are a quarter of what we use in solo.

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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby GreatEmerald » Mar 17 2016, 20:13

About the contents, so that people are aware of how it works now: a user can be assigned to an "article writer" group, and then be able to post content on the website using a nice WYSIWYG text editor on the website itself. It's really simple to submit content, what's missing is simply the people who would have time to post the content.

About maps, and quite possibly mods: they will work much like news work now. I envision that users could be assigned to a "content creator" group and submit their maps/mods into the system directly, using the same method as for writing articles. Like these news items, their submission could get a forum post linked to automatically, which would allow for review and general discussion about the map/mod. That should ease the process of publishing and reviewing content considerably, I'd imagine.

Modding is one of the strongest and most unique parts of this community, after all, from Grayface to the Equilibris team etc. So making it all more accessible and highlighted should have a good effect.

Another thing I'd like to see is an art section. There's a lot of good artwork about the MM series out there, some of it is already on CH, just not easily discoverable. Putting up a gallery shouldn't be all that difficult, and it would be nice for both reference and inspiration, and perhaps spur some interest in fanart and whatnot.

Speaking of art, the forums and the website are still rather barebones in that regard, so help with that would be appreciated too.

I'd also love to see the wiki put back on its feet (because the alternative is wikia, and that's turned into the new Geocities by now), but that requires some people working on it too.

So all in all there are some nice possibilities to explore still, and much of it is not difficult to implement from the technical point of view. Volunteers for any of this would be highly appreciated. Discussion and new ideas would be nice too.

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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Steven Aus » Mar 18 2016, 0:58

"and that's turned into the new Geocities by now" - I take it you mean that they steal credit for all the content?

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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby GreatEmerald » Mar 18 2016, 6:27

Steven Aus wrote:"and that's turned into the new Geocities by now" - I take it you mean that they steal credit for all the content?


No, I'm referring to how obtuse the advertising there is (including popups with a misleading looks for how to close them!), how slow it works (you have to wait for all the ads to load before you can search...) and how the technology is deviating way too much from standard MediaWiki.

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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Karmakeld » Apr 2 2016, 11:00

GE. Just wanted to say I think your vision for how to upload maps and mods etc. are very good. I would also support the art section, but I assume it's all a matter of having the time to set up these new features.
Perhaps you should make a more clear post, about CH looking for people who can help with stuff like adding news, and telling how easy it is. Finding volunteers isn't always the easiest task, so some examples of what is expected/needed (also in terms of expected workload) and what (little) knowledge is required to fulfill the task, might help people realize that they can indeed help, dispite not being familiar with creating websites.
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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Kalah » Apr 2 2016, 11:50

I already gave an example of the most wanted thing: a simple collection of all the creature stats for Heroes VII. Still no takers...
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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Karmakeld » Apr 2 2016, 17:52

Kalah, my post was refering to Great Emeralds post:

About the contents, so that people are aware of how it works now: a user can be assigned to an "article writer" group, and then be able to post content on the website using a nice WYSIWYG text editor on the website itself. It's really simple to submit content, what's missing is simply the people who would have time to post the content.

About maps, and quite possibly mods: they will work much like news work now. I envision that users could be assigned to a "content creator" group and submit their maps/mods into the system directly, using the same method as for writing articles. Like these news items, their submission could get a forum post linked to automatically, which would allow for review and general discussion about the map/mod. That should ease the process of publishing and reviewing content considerably, I'd imagine.

Modding is one of the strongest and most unique parts of this community, after all, from Grayface to the Equilibris team etc. So making it all more accessible and highlighted should have a good effect.

Another thing I'd like to see is an art section. There's a lot of good artwork about the MM series out there, some of it is already on CH, just not easily discoverable. Putting up a gallery shouldn't be all that difficult, and it would be nice for both reference and inspiration, and perhaps spur some interest in fanart and whatnot.

Speaking of art, the forums and the website are still rather barebones in that regard, so help with that would be appreciated too.

I'd also love to see the wiki put back on its feet (because the alternative is wikia, and that's turned into the new Geocities by now), but that requires some people working on it too.

So all in all there are some nice possibilities to explore still, and much of it is not difficult to implement from the technical point of view. Volunteers for any of this would be highly appreciated. Discussion and new ideas would be nice too.


Were I the owner of H7, I would've likely been willing to contribute with your request, but I'm not. But indeed it's sadning that no one has voluntiered to gather info about the stats..
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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Kalah » Apr 2 2016, 18:56

Ah yes, I see, it's the technical side of it.

Technically, it would not be difficult to contribute contents; people can even just send the stuff to me and I'll input it into the site - no problem. ;)
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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Erwinner » Apr 2 2016, 22:02

just fyi I know you're a Norway and not native English speaker but it's actually content not contents mate lol

as in new content or more content or contribute content, not as in table of contents lol

you don't ever generally pluralize content in this context lol

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Re: Contents Wanted

Postby Kalah » Apr 3 2016, 13:04

No, it's 'contents' as in plural form. I'm contented with my use of this term lol
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