Video: Discover Sylvan

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hellegennes
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Video: Discover Sylvan

Postby hellegennes » Jul 13 2015, 19:18

Constructive criticism is criticism which helps the person to which it is directed to improve. Criticism in general is commenting on something while at the same time explaining the reason of your discontent. The phrase "this is awful" is nothing but a statement.

Now, for those of you that are "bored" of the "politically correct" way to criticize, just two things: it's not about political correctness. If someone tells you that they want to see something improved and that's the reason they are criticizing it, then by definition they should make constructive observations. You can't improve something if your statement isn't constructive.

The second thing is that if you define criticism as simple statements, then those that feel they are the "recipients" of ad hominem, should take them to be simply a criticism of their views.

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Postby Galaad » Jul 13 2015, 19:20

parcaleste wrote:^ BS! Enough with this "constructive criticism" and "political correctness". I'm sick of this.

Well the least I can say is your reaction is perfectly understandable considering over a decade of constructive criticism has been and still is being ignored/rejected from Ubisoft for the most part lol

I've read plenty of excellent posts suggesting how to improve the h5 tote skill system but taking the h6 one as a basis and optimize the design for free picks in h7 is yet of another brilliant example of the impact constructive criticism has had on the company lmao
Last edited by Galaad on Jul 13 2015, 19:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Salamandre » Jul 13 2015, 19:30

Erw and Galaad, imo this is the wrong forum to test your virility. :D

The thread about H7 criticism and discussions in HC is now near its 1000th page, so when you drop a bomb, there are always dozens people to defuse it then dozens people to push the detonator. Thus you don't look like fool when you go devilish. But CH is mainly an information forum, stay polite and hold your elbows outside the dining table, please. This is an adult forum.

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Postby Galaad » Jul 13 2015, 19:51

Salamandre wrote:The thread about H7 criticism and discussions in HC is now near its 1000th page

Sorry Sal but wrong again, the thread you mention is certainly not the one I was referring at, rather posts in various threads of the HC which were created a few years back already with even insiders participating in the discussions lol

Look man, I have a lot of respect and estime for you in regard of Heroes, but you are obviously missing crucial data ever since Ubi took over about the way they've been handling it, and that's perfectly legitimate somehow, but I guess all is left to do is blame the game industry in general lol

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Re: Video: Discover Sylvan

Postby Erwinner » Jul 13 2015, 20:41

hellegennes wrote:Constructive criticism is criticism which helps the person to which it is directed to improve. Criticism in general is commenting on something while at the same time explaining the reason of your discontent. The phrase "this is awful" is nothing but a statement.

Now, for those of you that are "bored" of the "politically correct" way to criticize, just two things: it's not about political correctness. If someone tells you that they want to see something improved and that's the reason they are criticizing it, then by definition they should make constructive observations. You can't improve something if your statement isn't constructive.

The second thing is that if you define criticism as simple statements, then those that feel they are the "recipients" of ad hominem, should take them to be simply a criticism of their views.


well obviously I am not likely to write a full essay of constructive criticism here in a comment forum as a response to a video from a corporation who is not here to see it and would probably not listen to it,
after all I take to heart what Kalah himself wrote, "I have on many an occasion tried to lobby with Ubisoft and get them to change their ways, and on almost all these occasions we see that it is not the criticism from fans that get them to change. The DRM policy was an example of this" lol

the constructive feedback of the video exists, it's that I found it patronizing, perhaps they will see that and consciously endeavor to write a less patronizing script for their next video, you imposing on me that I demand a game, am going to play without buying, am a whiner, unconstructive or whatever is less than polite and entirely subjective lol

of course, the general reason I am critical of Ubisoft Entertainment S.A. is because I love the Heroes series but hate their games and would like them to change their practices,
people much smarter, much more polite and much more influential than me have exhausted the constructive options and failed, become disillusioned and said it is a waste of time, so I can't see a way to make it happen without expressing my frustration within forum rules and not buying the game, even if that doesn't work at least I am not doing nothing lol

if you are unfortunately satisfied by these games and just want a pedantic argument, then more power to you, I will simply refrain to engage your posts lol

Salamandre wrote:But CH is mainly an information forum, stay polite and hold your elbows outside the dining table, please. This is an adult forum.


bizarre remark, I think my simplistic and honest opinion posts are no better or worse than many in the Heroes 7 section at CH, for example "The Damage is Already Done" thread which mixes detailed critique with silly sarcastic comments exactly like mine lol

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Postby Salamandre » Jul 13 2015, 20:51

I was being sarcastic, looks like I lost the technique to do it naturally. :D

All that I meant was that Celestial Heavens isn't used to bloodthirstiness, like you two are.

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Jul 13 2015, 21:25

CH is the best forum ever made. I hope it's still around and active when I'm a senior citizen. :o[ Hopefully by then, HoMM will finally be out of the vile clutches of Ubi&Co.

And it's about time it finally got more active around here, bloodthirsty or otherwise. :o[

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Postby Groovy » Jul 13 2015, 21:53

parcaleste wrote:^ BS! Enough with this "constructive criticism" and "political correctness". I'm sick of this.

It's not about political correctness. If your criticism has substance, be as politically incorrect as you want (as far as I'm concerned anyway). Whether one agrees with it or not, at least constructive criticism gives one something to engage with, and can lead to productive discussion. The kind of criticism that we are commenting on accomplishes nothing of the sort, nor does it intend to.

Erwinner wrote:of course, the general reason I am critical of Ubisoft Entertainment S.A. is because I love the Heroes series but hate their games and would like them to change their practices,
people much smarter, much more polite and much more influential than me have exhausted the constructive options and failed, become disillusioned and said it is a waste of time, so I can't see a way to make it happen without expressing my frustration within forum rules and not buying the game, even if that doesn't work at least I am not doing nothing lol

Given that you've acknowledged a couple of paragraphs earlier that it is not the criticism from fans that gets Ubisoft to change, surely this is not the goal of your criticism? It rather seems to me that you have become habitually critical of Ubisoft for the reasons you've given. It reminds me very much of the mindset that I was in a few years ago (not related to gaming). Things were crap and I knew that I couldn't change them, so I became cynical and vented at every opportunity. This continued for over a year, until a friend of mine got tired of my venting and helped me get out of this mindset (and out of the situation that caused it). For what it's worth, this would be my advice to you. Since you recognise that your ongoing criticism is not going to accomplish anything with Ubisoft, why not channel your considerable energy and time elsewhere, where you can make a difference?

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Postby Erwinner » Jul 13 2015, 22:48

Groovy wrote:Given that you've acknowledged a couple of paragraphs earlier that it is not the criticism from fans that gets Ubisoft to change, surely this is not the goal of your criticism? It rather seems to me that you have become habitually critical of Ubisoft for the reasons you've given. It reminds me very much of the mindset that I was in a few years ago (not related to gaming). Things were crap and I knew that I couldn't change them, so I became cynical and vented at every opportunity. This continued for over a year, until a friend of mine got tired of my venting and helped me get out of this mindset (and out of the situation that caused it). For what it's worth, this would be my advice to you. Since you recognise that your ongoing criticism is not going to accomplish anything with Ubisoft, why not channel your considerable energy and time elsewhere, where you can make a difference?


to clarify, in spite of the futility involved in trying to deal with Ubisoft on a constructive level (I mean look at community legends like Alcibiades, Pitsu, Doomforge, Cepheus, Omega Destroyer, who were always constructive and now most of them just slam Ubisoft's illogical moves these days or completely exiled themselves), yes I still do complain about aspects I disagree with because I still think the complaining can improve the series lol

to say nothing and put in no effort at all is not my way as it would be guaranteed to not accomplish anything, even more so than to try when you're aware you're ineffective and will probably fail, I have defiance of that because after all you miss 100% of the shots you don't take lol

all I wanted to say above with the quote is to say look, we are not all robots here, basically even if you think it's irrational, don't chastise me for not assuming good faith for Ubi in my comments a lot of the time when 1) I don't like them and 2) I hear from so many credible people that it's pointless to try influencing them, lol

thankfully your friend was able to pull you out of your bad situation, unfortunately fans who are tired of Ubisoft's approach do not have any such lifeline because we want a quality Heroes game and there is only one company with the rights of Heroes, so the only option is to log my opinion whether Ubisoft wants to know it or not lol

like I said though, I really don't see why you guys are all so focused on me, I am not doing anything new under the sun, why have you not picked the brains of Cjlee, Parcaleste or Mr Crag Hack instead, they have comparable ideas and have been here way longer than me lol

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Jul 13 2015, 23:50

Erwinner wrote:why have you not picked the brains of Mr Crag Hack


Mainly because I don't bother replying to them. ;)

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Postby Groovy » Jul 14 2015, 5:38

Erwinner wrote:to clarify, in spite of the futility involved in trying to deal with Ubisoft on a constructive level (I mean look at community legends like Alcibiades, Pitsu, Doomforge, Cepheus, Omega Destroyer, who were always constructive and now most of them just slam Ubisoft's illogical moves these days or completely exiled themselves), yes I still do complain about aspects I disagree with because I still think the complaining can improve the series lol...

Okay, if you genuinely believe that ongoing criticism of the kind that you have been levelling at Ubisoft is the most likely to produce the results that you want, then by all means continue. I joined the discussion because I could see that it was negatively affecting other people. I jumped on the bandwagon, so to speak.

My friend didn’t help me get what I wanted. She helped me realise the futility of persevering with what I wanted but couldn’t have, and moving on to something else that I both wanted and could have. The parallel here would be to realise the futility of criticising Ubisoft as a way of getting them to produce the game that you want (which you have realised, based on your previous comments), and finding some other way to produce that game, or moving on to other games, or to something other than games.

I’ve been supporting indie games on Kickstarter for several years now, and I’m astounded by the amount of creativity and perseverance that exists in this space. There is really nothing stopping a bunch of people who are committed to a quality Heroes game from pitching the idea and getting the funding to make it. It won’t be called Heroes and it won’t be set in Ashan, but does that really matter? Obviously this would require a whole lot more effort than waiting for Ubisoft to make the game, but I honestly think it’s more likely to happen at this point, and it has the added advantage of helping you direct your energy towards something constructive. And it’s only one of the alternatives that’s available.

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Postby Erwinner » Jul 14 2015, 11:27

Groovy wrote:Okay, if you genuinely believe that ongoing criticism of the kind that you have been levelling at Ubisoft is the most likely to produce the results that you want, then by all means continue.


no doubt about it, and I think some worthwhile viewing on this topic can be found here at The Jimquisition if you would like a little more of the thought process

Groovy wrote:I’ve been supporting indie games on Kickstarter for several years now, and I’m astounded by the amount of creativity and perseverance that exists in this space. There is really nothing stopping a bunch of people who are committed to a quality Heroes game from pitching the idea and getting the funding to make it. It won’t be called Heroes and it won’t be set in Ashan, but does that really matter? Obviously this would require a whole lot more effort than waiting for Ubisoft to make the game, but I honestly think it’s more likely to happen at this point, and it has the added advantage of helping you direct your energy towards something constructive. And it’s only one of the alternatives that’s available.


first of all, I just don't agree with the idea that the onus is on the customer or critic to actualize a better vision for Heroes, that obligation is the publisher's, the customer or critic's task is to advocate for the customer or critic, and anything else is a simply a bonus lol

realistically, the chances of a Heroes knockoff kickstarter from unproven fans reaching any level of meaningful success and authenticity without some important hook like the involvement of JVC or something equally mindblowing are not all that great in my opinion,
fans made two versions of Dungeon Keeper 3, both pretty good, so it can't be ruled out, but I don't count on anything like that happening to us without some inspired visionary of the likes of Magnomagus or Quantomas kicking it off, and either way I am not a developer, I am a customer lol

a strong Heroes game needs to come from a quality developer above anything else, and Ubisoft's pattern so far has been to screw up, select a cheaper developer, screw up again, and go cheaper, ad nauseum, the only way I can see out of that vicious circle is for them to dismiss the incompetent Team Erwin, let it all fall and either preserve the series in amber, or revisit it with a decent budget later on

telling them how I really feel is my only option to speed that process up, so burn Ashan in flames as they say lol

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Postby Groovy » Jul 14 2015, 16:33

Cool. I've misread where you are coming from, Erwinner. I don't think your chances of success are good, but then again, there aren't any easy alternatives either. So please keep it up. I'll bear this in mind when reading yet more of your whiny posts. ;)

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Video: Discover Sylvan

Postby hellegennes » Jul 14 2015, 17:21

The root of the problem is that you see an "obligation" on the part of the publisher to implement anything. The publisher has no obligation whatsoever to do anything. It's not like they are public servants which you pay to have a job done for the common good. It's their right to do anything and your right as a customer or observer to act according to your feelings toward that. There are no obligations here.

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Postby Erwinner » Jul 14 2015, 18:30

Groovy wrote:Cool. I've misread where you are coming from, Erwinner. I don't think your chances of success are good, but then again, there aren't any easy alternatives either. So please keep it up. I'll bear this in mind when reading yet more of your whiny posts. ;)


cheers Groovy, a good thoughtful discussion actually IMO, thanks

mr.hackcrag wrote:Mainly because I don't bother replying to them. ;)


I see your point Mr. Hackcrag, I think for certain posters I will just take a leaf out of your book lol

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Re: Video: Discover Sylvan

Postby Galaad » Jul 15 2015, 7:46

hellegennes wrote:The publisher has no obligation whatsoever to do anything. It's not like they are public servants which you pay to have a job done for the common good. It's their right to do anything and your right as a customer or observer to act according to your feelings toward that. There are no obligations here.

Indeed, but when a publisher decides to turn a game into another one, don't get surprised they loose almost all original fanbase and the few people left willing to comment on how they are (mis)using the Heroes brand aren't particularily praising them.
Somehow, it looks like HOMM DNA is preventing them to do what they'd like to do, speaking of being counterproductive lol

IMO they should sell the rights and do their spin-off under another name, let's see how good that would sell lol

All in all, seems obvious to me the "root of the problem" lies into the people in charge and nothing else.

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Video: Discover Sylvan

Postby Karmakeld » Jul 15 2015, 22:29

Is there some special setting that automatically puts in a 'lol' each time the 'Enter' button or 'Add Comment' is pressed..?
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Postby Galaad » Jul 15 2015, 23:46

Sure, is just next to the "reply without replying to the post" one.

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Postby markkur » Jul 17 2015, 20:26

I've shared my complaints and thought I'd log on and say; the game is looking better than I expected...now I'll have to see if it will run well w/o my needing a PC. :D

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Postby mr.hackcrag » Jul 18 2015, 2:24

markkur wrote: w/o my needing a PC. :D


No console release announced yet. ;)


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