H7: New tales incoming

Discussions about the latest news in the Might and Magic community.

Moderators: Moderators, Celestial Heavens Staff

User avatar
Salamandre
Genie
Genie
Posts: 1032
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: France
Contact:

Postby Salamandre » Jun 17 2015, 10:53

Yes, add new where they're missing, not replace what is good with new. At the golden age of HoMM III and M&M VI there was enough room for creating the most genius from all heroes games by merging the two lores, develop alchemy in Heroes, create role playing features, create interactive fauna/flora -powerful potions, create more than two levels/map, be creative with useless skills, add adventure map damage spells, add seasons, add night/day cycle and so on. Also fix once for ever that incorrect algorithm might hero vs magic hero, which remained unfixed for a decade. Only that aspect could have stimulate a lot of creativity, granting each class with unique features. Allow magic characters to enchant artifacts and creatures, cast curses at adventure map level, terraform lands, make them as useful as they were in Might and Magic VI lore. Return to sorcery its natural greatness!

However they removed what was good and added new things nobody asked for in H4, then heroes was dead. IMO, to create a good Heroes game, go back at H3, then add what was missing. Eventually you will create a lot of new things, without replacing what successfully passed the test of time.

prokurors
Leprechaun
Leprechaun
Posts: 5
Joined: 09 Jun 2015
Location: Hacked By TurkSiberHackTeam

H7: New tales incoming

Postby prokurors » Jun 17 2015, 11:13

Well I disagree with Salamandre - Heroes IV was very interesting and fun game, and it was true HOMM to me. It was inovative, that's not necessary a bad thing - on the contrary - in this case it added a ton of new, interesting stuff.

P.S. And I am a fan of HOMM3 as well, and don't see a contradiction here :)

User avatar
Groovy
Golem
Golem
Posts: 619
Joined: 03 Sep 2011

Postby Groovy » Jun 17 2015, 11:28

I would have agreed with you a few years ago, Salamandre. Nowadays, I think that the core Heroes features can be significantly improved, and I don't think that tradition is a good enough reason not to do it.

User avatar
Galaad
Vampire
Vampire
Posts: 911
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

Postby Galaad » Jun 17 2015, 12:06

Of course nobody will fully agree with each other. However, there are facts, and facts are HOMM-III was and still is the most popular title of the franchise. Even Ubisoft says it. :P
Sure some people like h4, others even like h6, but if you look at the big picture, these are a minority among the players. I like tons of things proposed by h4, but that is personal preference, I think it is safe to objectively say h4 is far away from original heroes formula (didn’t even JVC’s wife blame him for it?).
One thing I think Heroes V did good though, on a conceptual level, is the skill system. If you compare it with Heroes III where you have a choice between two skills at level up, Heroes V introduced abilities provided by skills, offering a pop up window of two skills and two abilities at each level up (of course in h7 this "same" pop-up window is an illusion, for reasons I mentioned a few posts back). For instance, if you have Logistic as a skill, the skill could offer Pathfinding, Navigation and Scouting as perks dependent of the skill, IIRC. On top of it, it introduced the concept of racials. While I never liked the idea of racials as an aesthetic and lore "flavor" (Sylvan = elves, Dungeon = dark elves (so lame!) etc) for various reasons, I liked it in the gameplay, as it suggested that each town –and not only Necropolis- would have a unique ability –even if said racials/ultimates could have been better thought out, and also, better coded. This is the kind of improvement of a core feature that has been overall warmly welcomed by the fan base, as far as I can tell.
All in all, Heroes V wasn’t perfect either but has earned the title of being the second best of the series after Heroes III, I think the modding interest in both games is sufficient evidence for it.
My biggest turn-off with Heroes V –and I believe for others too- is the general environment, the atmosphere. Horrible visuals, really!

What I want to say is, you can improve what has been proven to be good and successful, and you can even bring some new things, but for that to be coherent and good, an unbiased and perfect understanding of the franchise as a whole is required. You can’t make an arrangement or a continuum of a classical music piece without having studied classical music, you can’t make a remake or a continuum of a film from Bergman or Tarkovski if all you know is Tarantino and Besson, just as you can’t do a proper HOMM sequel if you only played a few of these casually.

User avatar
hellegennes
Succubus
Succubus
Posts: 843
Joined: 04 May 2009

H7: New tales incoming

Postby hellegennes » Jun 17 2015, 14:33

What does "most popular" mean? You're certainly nor referring to sales.

Then, how is it a fact that H3 was the most popular? Is there a research that confirms it?

But most importantly, why was H3 the most popular, if that's the case? Is it not by happenstance? Don't tell me it's the game's mechanics and gameplay, which were carried over from H2.

mr.hackcrag
Dragon
Dragon
Posts: 1462
Joined: 05 Jul 2006

Postby mr.hackcrag » Jun 17 2015, 19:35

hellegennes, if you want to do research, go through all the threads in this forum and if you want more numbers, do the same at other fan sites. That could be a good indication of popularity. Have fun.

User avatar
Erwinner
Scout
Scout
Posts: 160
Joined: 06 Apr 2015

Re: H7: New tales incoming

Postby Erwinner » Jun 17 2015, 20:41

hellegennes wrote:What does "most popular" mean? You're certainly nor referring to sales.

Then, how is it a fact that H3 was the most popular? Is there a research that confirms it?

But most importantly, why was H3 the most popular, if that's the case? Is it not by happenstance? Don't tell me it's the game's mechanics and gameplay, which were carried over from H2.


lol

The most popular Heroes® title of all time is back in HD! Fifteen years later, rediscover the epic tale of Queen Catherine Ironfist, as she re-embarks on her critically acclaimed quest to unite her ravaged homeland and re-conquer the kingdom of Erathia.

User avatar
Groovy
Golem
Golem
Posts: 619
Joined: 03 Sep 2011

Postby Groovy » Jun 18 2015, 15:53

Galaad wrote:What I want to say is, you can improve what has been proven to be good and successful, and you can even bring some new things, but for that to be coherent and good, an unbiased and perfect understanding of the franchise as a whole is required. You can’t make an arrangement or a continuum of a classical music piece without having studied classical music, you can’t make a remake or a continuum of a film from Bergman or Tarkovski if all you know is Tarantino and Besson, just as you can’t do a proper HOMM sequel if you only played a few of these casually.

I see this as the province of expansion packs and DLCs coupled with user-generated content (maps, campaigns and mods). I’d much rather have sequels break new ground while retaining just enough in common with their predecessors to be recognisable as sequels. Otherwise I don’t really see the point of sequels.

I agree with your analysis of the existing Heroes games. H3 is my favourite game too, followed by H5. I never liked H4, though it does have some features that I think should have been pursued further. Where we seem to disagree is on the question of what this means. I don’t think it means that H3 should serve as the basis for future designs. We cannot decide this purely based on its popularity relative to other games from the series. All of these games have some important features in common, which we cannot evaluate by comparing the games against one another. In effect, we won’t be saying that these features are the best, only that we’ll stick with them regardless. Having seen just how much improvement is possible through my work on the tabletop game, I find this immensely frustrating. :disagree: :S :(

User avatar
hellegennes
Succubus
Succubus
Posts: 843
Joined: 04 May 2009

H7: New tales incoming

Postby hellegennes » Jun 18 2015, 21:46

@mr.hackcrag:

The number of participants in this or any other forum is neither big enough nor statistically represantive for such a research to be meaningful. You're basing your argument on a personal impression.

@Erwinner:
So, when it serves your argument, Ubisoft is a reputable source for you. Never mind that it's not even a real statement but a marketing tagline. So, if Ubisoft markets H7 as the best in te series, i'm guessing it'll be just as valid to you, no?

User avatar
Erwinner
Scout
Scout
Posts: 160
Joined: 06 Apr 2015

Re: H7: New tales incoming

Postby Erwinner » Jun 18 2015, 22:12

hellegennes wrote:@Erwinner:
So, when it serves your argument, Ubisoft is a reputable source for you. Never mind that it's not even a real statement but a marketing tagline. So, if Ubisoft markets H7 as the best in te series, i'm guessing it'll be just as valid to you, no?


Ubisoft are the best, and even the only, reputable source on which game is the most popular, because they have the holistic sales data of the series, and considering they are not even talking about a game they produced, the concession only adds to the credibility that it must simply be a fact lol

on many other counts, certain parties within Ubisoft are certainly deluded, but I don't think anyone anywhere is deluded enough to claim Heroes 7 is the best game lol

if you mean to dispute them that Heroes 3 is not the most popular game, cite a counter source to back your thoughts up lol

User avatar
Salamandre
Genie
Genie
Posts: 1032
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: France
Contact:

Postby Salamandre » Jun 18 2015, 22:14

@hellegennes

You start on the defensive and decided you won't hear and consider any statistics. Anyway, why would we need statistics? If one enjoys more one game or another, he will show it by dedicating some work for, right? The beauty of a game is in the eye watching it.

Also I sincerely think we are lucky to have companies working on Heroes, because this means there is still a slim chance we get a good game one day.

My personal favorite is Heroes 2 but after 2 years of online playing, we reached a dead end and needed a lot of fixes for the most flaws we found. As speed's supremacy and hit and run, people ran out of solution to balance the multiplayer but without starting throw rules over. And H3 did what any game should do- in my opinion- improve the old but keep most of successful mechanics and features untouched. If a game want to innovate, change name, we have King's Bounty, Disciples, Age of Wonders, many Heroes-like variants using other ideas, some close, some not so.

I was browsing yesterday the ToH history HERE, and noticed that H3 ran simultaneously with H4 for several seasons. H3 ran for eight full seasons, with up to 100 games played daily during the first 4 seasons. H4 and H5 got respectively 2 seasons each before tournament want in stasis, then totally drowned with H6. There is a slim chance ToH activates again if H7 is MP interesting.

I think one should browse ToH history to find out relevant details about Heroes games when competitive vectors. Of course, we can talk and chat about lore, but if the game is blight in its mechanics, it won't survive long. Tournaments are like F1 races: if you keep your super car in your garage, you will never know its potential or failures. We need tournaments then hear best players share their thoughts on Heroes games, from first hand experience.

User avatar
hellegennes
Succubus
Succubus
Posts: 843
Joined: 04 May 2009

H7: New tales incoming

Postby hellegennes » Jun 18 2015, 23:18

What I am saying is that H2 would definetely be more popular if the industry timing was right. That happened with H3 (the rising popularity, availability and affordability of the Internet helped treendously). If we are talking about sales, that would be H5.


Return to “News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 14 guests