Voting for Vampires!

Discussions about the latest news in the Might and Magic community.
User avatar
Panda Tar
Forum Mascot
Forum Mascot
Posts: 6709
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Florianópolis - Brasil

Unread postby Panda Tar » 07 Apr 2015, 21:42

Salamandre, I believe they were referring to conception mainly, like artwork or something like that. Not that they would, alone, do the whole thing, from sketch to 3D modelling, texturing, rendering, lighting etc.

Although, I should say, some artwork presented so far exceeds greatly in quality than some 3D models. Dunno why they got so different in the end.
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2. :panda:

User avatar
Erwinner
Scout
Scout
Posts: 160
Joined: 06 Apr 2015

Unread postby Erwinner » 07 Apr 2015, 21:42

Salamandre wrote:Guys, I think here is the problem. You really think you can or is a matter of 20 seconds, as you say then you talk to them like you could do better. Seriously, I worked with 3D tools for 2 years (still beginner level), and I know doing such complex models they do isn't everyone's ability.

I don't want to be picky, but do you have credentials as 3D modeler?
I didn't say that lightly, I literally can do a better job of the retexture work Limbic showed, in fact many others already did in this thread lol

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=40990

User avatar
Galaad
Vampire
Vampire
Posts: 917
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

Unread postby Galaad » 07 Apr 2015, 21:54

Anyway, reusing existing models is a hinder to creativity. Ashan as well.

User avatar
Salamandre
Genie
Genie
Posts: 1032
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: France
Contact:

Unread postby Salamandre » 07 Apr 2015, 22:45

Look, the only one famous game having so many sequels (from what I know) is Might and Magic. And frankly, MM6-MM8 share a lot of models and nobody bickered about, as the content offered had the priority (ok I know 7 and 8 were inferior to 6 but still). I, for one, prefer to wait and see final result, having one or two creatures cloned (out from 70+?) is not so big issue unless you really can't go bed before criticizing something. :D

I don't care about lore (lore is the crap story usually coming with games, right?) because experience taught me game-play is the key. As it is today, I spent probably more time with H3 than you all together, and I still didn't read a word about its lore-but enjoyed 50+ times the campaigns. Is just a fantastic game, and still today people create scenarios where we discover new strategies, new combinations from creature abilities (yes sod!) and so on.

This is why I think the best game is the game stimulating its fans to create their own world, going farther, inventing new ways to play it. This is why map editor must be perfect, game should not hang, not bug, editing should be easy and friendly. Things neither H5 or 6 did (although at some extent the H5 editor is great but huge maps can't be played, and as we know, bigger the better, so...)

Anyway, if you care about lore so much, that's fine. But wanting the lore to be realistic then complaining a creature is used twice, makes not much sense for me. A lore is a lore, same for all games in that world. Which means you will meet same characters, creatures, lands and so on. + new, if any.
Last edited by Salamandre on 07 Apr 2015, 23:09, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Galaad
Vampire
Vampire
Posts: 917
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

Unread postby Galaad » 07 Apr 2015, 23:08

Salamandre wrote:lore is the crap story usually coming with games, right?
Lore is also the fulfillment of a concept, and it affects more than simple story-telling. Free to you to choose to ignore that part, but no need to be so condescending towards it, I am firmly convinced this part impacts in a much more effective way the whole thing than most people want to let on.

User avatar
Salamandre
Genie
Genie
Posts: 1032
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: France
Contact:

Unread postby Salamandre » 08 Apr 2015, 00:45

Those who make a game aim to get the best selling rates. Every decision during that process is about how audience will receive, will they like? Will they dislike? We have a good example going on right now.

Those who write literature, write because they have a message to communicate, and additionally-if liked, they will also be payed for. They don't care about their message to be liked or disliked, they just have to put it out, like a child to be born. A guy hired to write and imagine a video game lore is usually a mediocre writer because no serious writer would waste his talent and energy for something which may be destroyed in game critics, for reasons not depending on the story quality. The gaming industry is not like the movie industry, where a movie can convey strong emotions, therefore a talented composer will feel inspired to compose adequate music. A game has no emotions and when emotions lack, human content is lacking too. We play games because we need to relax, or, in worse situations, because we have nothing better to do.

This is why, whatever is in the game, the story always remains secondary. Gaming is about power, becoming powerful, becoming a virtual god. When this theme is present in literature, it usually ends in philosophical tirades, commonly boring for the majority. But this is another dimension to discuss.

Sorry for off topic, is not that I am condescending about lore, is that I am no longer a teenager and things start to crystallize at this point. Playing a game is fun and modding a game is a mental and creative challenge. But there is nothing to learn from a game, nothing which could have an impact on your life, change your way of seeing things, change your real priorities. The lore, the fantasy behind, is just a quick higgledy-piggledy fantasy, which artificially tries to convince is real, but seriously, does it really succeed?

Ok, thats all about I could say. Thanks guys for discussion. B-)

User avatar
Galaad
Vampire
Vampire
Posts: 917
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

Unread postby Galaad » 08 Apr 2015, 10:26

Please tell me how is it a brilliant business idea when you scrap universes which has been worked on by the same team during the first four iterations. Loyal fans will inevitably be disappointed, worst case because it is badly done, best case because of nostalgia. Newcomers will always be there anyway, loosing already existing fans doesn’t seem so bright, IMHO

You are perfectly right saying game mechanics are of crucial importance, but I think you overrule the spirit of a game. Whenever I play Heroes III or II, I like the world which I’m dove into, and this reflects only visually, through the work of Tracy Iwata IE. Whenever I play Heroes V, I don’t like the world which I’m dove into, as for Heroes VI I won’t bother reinstall it since the game is retarded.

But the question I ask myself is, since I like mechanics of both Heroes III and Heroes V, why do I keep playing Heroes III and not Heroes V?
Not because of gameplay, mind you. I know for a fact I am not the only person who will say “Heroes has lost its aura, its fairy-tale charm, its onirism”.
Yes, it’s irrational, but yes, it makes sense, and yes, you are missing it.
At this point you will notice I am not even mentioning story-telling. The lore is more than the setting and the story-telling. The lore is the main concept of what you imagine or envision and it will influence how it will look, and I will dare to go as far as to say even how it will play (cf. h6). In Ashan it is much more visible than in NWC iterations though, it’s shoved down your throat, basically. In prior Heroes titles, you could manage to avoid that part of the game (if you don’t like sci-fi in example), but this is not the case anymore, and then it is just too bad if people dislike it. Financially, it is already a risk to act as such for the company, IMO

I thank you for sharing your point of view nevertheless.

User avatar
Kalah
Retired Admin
Retired Admin
Posts: 20078
Joined: 24 Nov 2005

Unread postby Kalah » 08 Apr 2015, 10:44

It is a good business decision when you consider the amount of (paid) work a new team has to do in order to come to grips with the old universe. Ubisoft would be paying a team of people to do something other than working on the game, which from a business point of view is just not a good idea.

From a game (and universe) making perspective, it is different. The argument for keeping the old universe and building on that is the quality aspect you mentioned: the fact that the fans like it. However, if the new developers found themselves unable to do this job properly, they would run the risk of enraging said fans for what they'd consider "destroying what we love" (instead of leaving it alone). Thus, you have a strong argument for moving on there too.

There is really no argument left for Ubisoft to return to the old universe. Starting anew just has so many more benefits for them.
In War: Resolution, In Defeat: Defiance, In Victory: Magnanimity, In Peace: Goodwill.

User avatar
Erwinner
Scout
Scout
Posts: 160
Joined: 06 Apr 2015

Unread postby Erwinner » 08 Apr 2015, 12:37

Kalah wrote:It is a good business decision when you consider the amount of (paid) work a new team has to do in order to come to grips with the old universe. Ubisoft would be paying a team of people to do something other than working on the game, which from a business point of view is just not a good idea.

From a game (and universe) making perspective, it is different. The argument for keeping the old universe and building on that is the quality aspect you mentioned: the fact that the fans like it. However, if the new developers found themselves unable to do this job properly, they would run the risk of enraging said fans for what they'd consider "destroying what we love" (instead of leaving it alone). Thus, you have a strong argument for moving on there too.
er, you do understand this is exactly what they've been doing already with Ashan? even ten years later they're still shelling out cash for a whole team of (not exactly award-winning) writers and artists to "pass the peace pipe" around, let's say, lol

as for destroying what we love, well even if this argument from incompetence is true, it's still called Heroes 5, it's still called Heroes 6 and 7, it's called Might and Magic 10, and they even did tag stuff on to that universe in Heroes 6, so I really don't think they're all too worried about keeping a particular legacy intact and leaving well enough alone lol

User avatar
Galaad
Vampire
Vampire
Posts: 917
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

Unread postby Galaad » 08 Apr 2015, 12:58

Kalah wrote:There is really no argument left for Ubisoft to return to the old universe. Starting anew just has so many more benefits for them.
I agree.
But the problem here (ironically) is consistency in regard of legacy. I don’t mind a new universe, I just want this universe to be closer in feel to what we know.
I didn't mind Axeoth. Ashan should be left behind and attain state of a bad dream, IMO

User avatar
Kalah
Retired Admin
Retired Admin
Posts: 20078
Joined: 24 Nov 2005

Unread postby Kalah » 08 Apr 2015, 12:59

@Erwinner: I'm not sure I understand what you mean in that first paragraph, but yes, I was explaining the probable motives behind the decisions the have made.
In War: Resolution, In Defeat: Defiance, In Victory: Magnanimity, In Peace: Goodwill.

User avatar
Panda Tar
Forum Mascot
Forum Mascot
Posts: 6709
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Florianópolis - Brasil

Unread postby Panda Tar » 08 Apr 2015, 15:11

I think he meant that even paying a new team to work on a new universe, Ashan, there hasn't been any improvement because, apparently, people are not paying much attention on their work due any unbeknownst reason, and, by his terms, failing.
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2. :panda:

User avatar
hellegennes
Succubus
Succubus
Posts: 843
Joined: 04 May 2009

Voting for Vampires!

Unread postby hellegennes » 08 Apr 2015, 17:57

"what is meant by "reusing assets" here is not the use of similar code or game design, but literally the reuse of existing assets, taking a creature sprite or model and copy pasting it into the next Heroes sequel, which is something only Heroes 7 has done"





First of all, I mentioned other things besides creatures. Artifacts is a prime example. All of Heroes' artifacts from were carried over in H2 exactly as they were. I mean not only the names and their mechanics but their actual graphical representations too. So, from the get go you're simply wrong. NWC did reuse assets in subsequent installments.



Secondly, the creatures too were carried over with less than minimal changes, especially between Heroes and H2. Some creatures have been reworked so little that the only observable difference they have from the earlier installment is their frame rate.

User avatar
hellegennes
Succubus
Succubus
Posts: 843
Joined: 04 May 2009

Voting for Vampires!

Unread postby hellegennes » 08 Apr 2015, 18:12

@Panda Tar:



Even if that is the case, they still had to use some lore. And paying people to study another lore is not a good investment tactic; that's what Kalah says. It's not just an extra step in the process*, it's also pretty difficult, since we are talking about the lore of two main series of games, the releases of which span more than 15 years. There are a lot of inconsistencies, plot holes, etc. This is because JVC did not started the franchise with a long-term plan on his mind.



Also, Ubisoft wanted the franchise to be a bit less episodic and a bit more concrete in terms of chronology and universe. This on its own has disadvantages, of course. It is lore-wise more difficult to fit in new races and creatures, which makes for less diversity in subsequent games. If you have something less set on stone, you can more easily diversify new games in terms of pretty much everything: from creature design to line-ups and from town architecture to gameplay mechanics.





* first study and create a database of all things lore-wise; then set up the background on which your own stories will revolve around.

User avatar
Salamandre
Genie
Genie
Posts: 1032
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: France
Contact:

Unread postby Salamandre » 08 Apr 2015, 18:39

For me, personally, first start of H5 was a very unpleasant shock, to say at what point I was used with previous assets carrying over, + the confusing 3D. Even today, I ask my self what was in their mind (probably void when they took such decision): when battle starts, H5 creatures are so small and blurry that I have to scroll to see what's going; but when scrolling even if a little, enemies are gone from visible screen, so now that you saw what you move, must scroll back to see where to move :disagree:

Now imagine this constraint applied to a chess game and you will understand at which exact moment Heroes ended being THE strategy game.

I would love to see all creatures line ups from H2 carried over, but only enhanced visually, due to more modern graphical tools. Then, at some point, the sequels must stop, Heroes game should not become a golden goose, due to H3 popularity.

If you don't fix an ending term, then it is practically impossible to keep both lores and line ups intact, and then it becomes something else, hence the riot.
Last edited by Salamandre on 08 Apr 2015, 18:52, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Panda Tar
Forum Mascot
Forum Mascot
Posts: 6709
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Florianópolis - Brasil

Re: Voting for Vampires!

Unread postby Panda Tar » 08 Apr 2015, 18:42

hellegennes wrote:
Even if that is the case, they still had to use some lore. And paying people to study another lore is not a good investment tactic; that's what Kalah says. It's not just an extra step in the process*, it's also pretty difficult, since we are talking about the lore of two main series of games, the releases of which span more than 15 years. There are a lot of inconsistencies, plot holes, etc. This is because JVC did not started the franchise with a long-term plan on his mind.
I was merely trying to explain Kalah what he wasn't sure of understanding from the post above his own. It has nothing to do with my point of view about anything, you see.
"There’s nothing to fear but fear itself and maybe some mild to moderate jellification of bones." Cave Johnson, Portal 2. :panda:

User avatar
Erwinner
Scout
Scout
Posts: 160
Joined: 06 Apr 2015

Re: Voting for Vampires!

Unread postby Erwinner » 08 Apr 2015, 20:00

Kalah wrote:@Erwinner: I'm not sure I understand what you mean in that first paragraph, but yes, I was explaining the probable motives behind the decisions the have made.
you said scrapping the universe made sense, speculating that Ubisoft would have had to pay a dedicated team of people to handle the lore, and I said that falls flat because Ubisoft are paying a dedicated team of people to handle the lore lol
hellegennes wrote:First of all, I mentioned other things besides creatures. Artifacts is a prime example. All of Heroes' artifacts from were carried over in H2 exactly as they were. I mean not only the names and their mechanics but their actual graphical representations too. So, from the get go you're simply wrong. NWC did reuse assets in subsequent installments.
yeah, I'm perfectly aware hero portraits, artifacts and some other art carried over between Heroes 1 and Heroes 2, however Galaad and I never said otherwise, he is not critiquing reuse of artifacts, he is critiquing "reused assets(!) from H6 Lich and Vampire for Arachnopolis" lol

you also said "H3 did reuse most of H2 assets" which is patently NOT true in this context lol
hellegennes wrote:Secondly, the creatures too were carried over with less than minimal changes, especially between Heroes and H2. Some creatures have been reworked so little that the only observable difference they have from the earlier installment is their frame rate.
as for this, no offense, but what in the blue blazes are you talking about? we are talking about reused material, literally the same creature sprites/models regurgitated with a mere colour swap, Heroes 1 and 2 are not guilty of that at all lol

http://www.spriters-resource.com/resour ... /41239.png
http://www.spriters-resource.com/resour ... /41852.png

there is no commonality there whatsoever, the sprites are not carried over, they are not the same sprites lol

User avatar
Salamandre
Genie
Genie
Posts: 1032
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: France
Contact:

Unread postby Salamandre » 08 Apr 2015, 20:07

This is merely due to graphical tools used in the process. Once the lamasu 3D skeleton is ready, it makes sense to reuse it if another or modified texture is applied. But in H2 creatures are hand made so it is impossible to reuse anything, must draw them again, probably by different artist too.

But the bottom point is that concepts, names and effects from H2 were carried over to Heroes 3, which is similar to your "asset" comparison. And nobody was shocked that line ups, battle mechanics, artifact names were almost identical.

I think this riot over reused assets makes no sense, seeing how Might&Magic games share everything. There are way more important aspects IMO.

User avatar
Galaad
Vampire
Vampire
Posts: 917
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

Unread postby Galaad » 08 Apr 2015, 20:15

Salamandre wrote:must draw them again, probably by different artist too.
Why? I think same artists should do different creatures through the games. If you change artists, it will change the style (unless there's a "creative" IP forcing everything and Ashanising all), if you change the style, it will affect something else. I mean, of course HI through HIV looks different, but you can clearly see what links them, visually, just as in VI and VII.

User avatar
Salamandre
Genie
Genie
Posts: 1032
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: France
Contact:

Unread postby Salamandre » 08 Apr 2015, 20:21

Well, this is not Mona Lisa, just a game where a decent graphical artist can do whatever you ask him. You know how it works in real world, people is hired, under exclusivity contracts sometimes, so it might happen that the previous artist is not available. Of course if you have same, is better, but sometimes a fresh vision is not that bad neither.

I remember I saw in M&M7 credits different drawer names than Heroes 3, while creatures as behemots, medusas and many other were looking exactly same.
Last edited by Salamandre on 08 Apr 2015, 20:26, edited 2 times in total.


Return to “News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests