MMX Release Date

[Dalai]

I am no big fan of digital downloads but they do offer one great advantage: they're less expensive.

It's a little more complex than that. If I have DVD - it's mine. I can move it where I want, I can sell it or exchange it. Mine!

Can you do that with games on your account in the cloud? In GOG or Steam or whatever you chose?

What will you do if your account is suspended one day? "There were some activity we did not like. It violates some stupid rule. Yes, you signed it when clicked "I agree". No, it can not be altered or removed. No, we will not tell you exactly what because our answer will help criminals like you in the future. Nice doing business with you, here is our next very special offer for you!"

If someone came to my house and took my shelf with DVDs - I'd know exactly what to do. But if my Steam account is suspended - I'm on my own. 50 games on one account 20 dollars each equals 1000 loss. 250 games = 5000 dollars. You get the idea.

[japol]

@Dalai

In GOG you actually ''own'' the game in the traditional sense.

Not necessarily in the legal sense but you can do whatever you want

with it practically.No DRM - online activation bull****.

[GreatEmerald]

>@Dalai
>In GOG you actually ''own'' the game in the traditional sense.
>Not necessarily in the legal sense but you can do whatever you want
>with it practically.No DRM - online activation bull****.

This. You just download, and then are free to burn the installer on a CD. Or keep it in an external hard drive, which are generally more durable than CDs to begin with.

[hellegennes]

@Dalai: What you describe is not just a digital release, it's a digital release which requires you to store your game on the cloud or needs a dedicated server to run.

So your argument does not apply to what I wrote. A digital download means that you download the files onto your machine. You can do whatever you want with them, it's not necessarily implied that you need to be online to use them. MP3's sold by Amazon are like that. You don't have a physical copy but you can create own, if you want, right after you download the files.

[Variol]

We'll have,
Superman
GI Joe
Ironman
etc
to keep us entertained through the summer, waiting for the release.

[Kalah]

The month "September" first appeared in the Polygon article, but I don't know where they got that from or if it was ever confirmed. My official sources used the term "within 2013" so they probably don't have the date hammered down yet. I'm guessing a number of things could happen, from technical challenges to Ubi marketing reps deciding the date for other reasons.

[Dalai]

@Dalai

In GOG you actually ''own'' the game in the traditional sense.

Not necessarily in the legal sense but you can do whatever you want

with it practically.No DRM - online activation bull****.

To own a game you have to download it and store locally. After you download it you no longer use cloud to store it. Burning thousands DVDs at home is actually way more expensive than burning them in factory conditions. The whole "cheaper, better, faster" argument goes invalid.

Don't mix "no DRM" with "no problem". To download a game you must have an active account with a game attached to it. The decision about terminating your account is out of your hands.

DRM is a completely different issue.

This. You just download, and then are free to burn the installer on a CD. Or keep it in an external hard drive, which are generally more durable than CDs to begin with.

This.

@Dalai: What you describe is not just a digital release, it's a digital release which requires you to store your game on the cloud or needs a dedicated server to run.

So your argument does not apply to what I wrote. A digital download means that you download the files onto your machine. You can do whatever you want with them, it's not necessarily implied that you need to be online to use them. MP3's sold by Amazon are like that. You don't have a physical copy but you can create own, if you want, right after you download the files.

In the real world you have to make a local copy or take a risk of terminating your account. You can't avoid doing both. If you have a less expensive way of burning DVDs then they do it in factories - I can only be glad you're going to get very rich.

And in the real world most digital releases DO imply that you need to be online to use/activate/patch them. You can download whatever you want from Steam, but without active online account you'll not be able to actually play the games you bought. And judging from miserable online experience with new games, I'm really concerned about being unable to play those games when they get old.

[GreatEmerald]

In the real world you have to make a local copy or take a risk of terminating your account. You can't avoid doing both. If you have a less expensive way of burning DVDs then they do it in factories - I can only be glad you're going to get very rich.

...you need a local copy to play the game in the first place. Unless you are planning to play through one of those cloud servers. And yes, I do have a less expensive way of burning DVDs, since the process, unlike in factories, does not involve getting official licenses from the publishers, negotiating deals in the first place, and most importantly shipping. I can also fit more than one game on a single DVD in some cases.

[hellegennes]

@Dalai:



Okay, have you EVER bought anything in non-physical form? Because There is no account thing except in the cases where there is a DRM system. You don't have to have an account anywhere to own or do whatever you want with your purchased copy.



Now, with regards to your copy, why would you need to have thousand of copies of your games? Burning your game on a DVD costs about 0.1 to 0.5 $, which is tens of times cheaper than buying the game on a DVD. Even with the added cost, in case you want to have the game on a DVD, it's way cheaper for both you and the publisher.



Why would you need a DVD copy, anyway? It's way more convenient to store them in an external drive, which is much more reliable and durable.

[Tress]

If someone came to my house and took my shelf with DVDs - I'd know exactly what to do. But if my Steam account is suspended - I'm on my own. 50 games on one account 20 dollars each equals 1000 loss. 250 games = 5000 dollars. You get the i

It would be same as saying that we should better keep money in sock rather than bank since it can one day shut down(and it also happens, specially nowadays), but still, my money is much safer in bank even then. Besides by time something horrible may happen with steam, I bet that carriers that games are written on will decay. I believe that my collection of games I bought in end of 90x/beginning of 2000, will be somewhat scratched and unreadable. Even more carrier standards change all the time. CD's is already near to be dead breed. DVD is also slowly dying, in fact I haven't placed dvd disc in my pc for past 2 years or so(I haven't bothered to attach dvd reader cables),not to even mention floppy which lived way past age it should have, but I doubt we can utilize our floppy disc with king bounty original, which means that even if you have nifty box with might and magic in your drawer, there is no guaranty that you will be able to play it in 10 years, while steam/gog whatever cloud will live on, and there is no realistic reason for it to die(Gog also comes with no drm.)
As for DRM issue, sure it's a pain in the neck, but in case authorization servers are bombed by reds so we can't play anymore, we can always get less legal copy which dont have drm, and in most case we will have legal cd key anyway. If all multuplayer servers dies, that more worse scenario but then game is dead anyway, which dont have anything to do with physical copy or drm.

[hellegennes]

That's right. I use a no-cd crack for a number of my original games because they are already unreadable. My copies of MM6 and MM7 are so worn out that they only play in high quality DVD drivers or they skip like crazy. Physical copies are less likely to live as long as platforms like Steam.

[Dalai]

...you need a local copy to play the game in the first place.

And then I uninstall game, sell PC, move to another country and suddenly feel like replaying the game. I have to re-download it from some server where I need to have an account or install from my DVD. "Ooops, your account has been suspended, it's very conspicuous that you login from another country."

And yes, I do have a less expensive way of burning DVDs, since the process, unlike in factories, does not involve getting official licenses from the publishers,

Publishers order DVDs. They already have all the possible official licences.

negotiating deals in the first place

What deals?

and most importantly shipping.

Your empty DVDs are not being shipped? Do they appear out of thin air?

I can also fit more than one game on a single DVD in some cases.

Yeah, right 10 years ago.

@Dalai:



Okay, have you EVER bought anything in non-physical form? Because There is no account thing except in the cases where there is a DRM system. You don't have to have an account anywhere to own or do whatever you want with your purchased copy.

Yes, I have. I have account on GOG, and if I want to play a game I own again, I need to download it again. For that I need account on GOG. Or I have to create a physical copy at home. Which is ALWAYS more expensive than factory made. That is what factories are for, you know.

Now, with regards to your copy, why would you need to have thousand of copies of your games?

I need 1 copy. There are thousands of players like me. We all need thousands copies.

Burning your game on a DVD costs about 0.1 to 0.5 $, which is tens of times cheaper than buying the game on a DVD.

Really? Is this the comparison you want to discuss? Game on DVD price includes a little more than burning

Why would you need a DVD copy, anyway? It's way more convenient to store them in an external drive, which is much more reliable and durable.

Yes, and free too.

None of my factory-made CDs or DVDs failed. Unlike HDDs.

[Dalai]

It would be same as saying that we should better keep money in sock rather than bank since it can one day shut down(and it also happens, specially nowadays), but still, my money is much safer in bank even then.

This is exactly right!

The thing is - how you weigh the risks. You think those publishers are reliable, I don't. Look back 10 years and see how well leaders of that time fared.

You can write down the names 10 leading distribution platforms and check the list 10 years later. I personally will be surprised if more than 2 names will still be alive.

Your bank accounts are insured by national and international regulating bodies. Your Steam accounts are not, obviously.

As for DRM issue, sure it's a pain in the neck, but in case authorization servers are bombed by reds so we can't play anymore, we can always get less legal copy which dont have drm, and in most case we will have legal cd key anyway. If all multuplayer servers dies, that more worse scenario but then game is dead anyway, which dont have anything to do with physical copy or drm.

I do it for most of my games anyway. It's just more convenient. May be that is why my DVDs are mostly in mint condition.

[hellegennes]

@Dalai:



So, you have an account in GOG but you still believe you need to download the installer again, if you uninstall your game? Uninstalling doesn't do anything to the installer which you have already downloaded. And if you want to sell your computer, there are USB sticks, external hard drives, etc.



Of course, you can always burn it on a DVD, if you want it the traditional way, which is still about 20 to 100 times cheaper than buying the game on a DVD in the first place.

[GreatEmerald]

None of my factory-made CDs or DVDs failed. Unlike HDDs.

Mine have. Both CDs and HDDs, really, but HDDs have a nice feature of being able to discard corrupted parts of the disk and use the rest. Also, you need to make sure to run a sane resilient Btrfs (or ZFS, or at least ResFS) file system, not any NTFS or such. And, if you really want, you can use two HDDs in RAID. That will make it nearly impossible to destroy your data, barring natural disasters or malicious intent.

So if you uninstall things, sell your PC, move to another country, and get banned from all distribution services, you will be able to play all your non-DRM games and none of your DRM games.

[Dalai]

@Dalai:
So, you have an account in GOG but you still believe you need to download the installer again, if you uninstall your game? Uninstalling doesn't do anything to the installer which you have already downloaded. And if you want to sell your computer, there are USB sticks, external hard drives, etc.

I thought you were native English speaker, but you obviously have hard time reading what I wrote twice already.

If I keep installer intact, it means I have a local copy. I don't see any point in keeping installers of all my games on my active notebook for 10 years or more. System SSDs are meant for other things.

And I wrote exactly that: "...if I want to play a game I own again, I need to download it again. For that I need account on GOG. Or I have to create a physical copy at home." And now you open my eyes to the fact, that my copy of installer will still work. Thank you!

For some reason you preferred to ignore the part of my message where I use words "in real world". "And in the real world most digital releases DO imply that you need to be online to use/activate/patch them. You can download whatever you want from Steam, but without active online account you'll not be able to actually play the games you bought." Concentrating on GOG does not describe the whole picture, obviously.

Of course, you can always burn it on a DVD, if you want it the traditional way, which is still about 20 to 100 times cheaper than buying the game on a DVD in the first place.

Do you really think that repeating an invalid argument again will make it valid?

Why in the world you compare cost of burning DVD at home with the cost of DVD in store? Are they the same? Don't you realize that the price of DVD from store includes many more things other than the price of burning (or rather printing)? For instance, it includes the price of the game itself, intellectual property, which in case of digital distribution you have to acquire separately.

"Why should I buy a good car? It costs 40 000 dollars, but a ride in taxi costs only 25. That makes taxi 1600 times less expensive." Reasonable idea, isn't it?

Actually, I asked that before too, and you ignored it, so no point to try again.

Also, you need to make sure to run a sane resilient Btrfs (or ZFS, or at least ResFS)

Really? I point out that digital distribution is either more risky OR more expensive than traditional, and your argument is improving the more expensive part?

Do you actually believe that adopting advanced NAS technologies is a way for millions gamers?

Are you actually saying that they should learn groups and permissions, traverse flags and srubs, quotas and deduplication, types of ZFS volumes? Snapshots, replications, rsync tasks, VLANs and link aggregations? Do they need to buy more processing power - yes, advanced FSs need a lot of processing power to secure your content from failures - just to save distribution companies several cents per DVD? Is that what you're saying?

[GreatEmerald]

I thought you were native English speaker, but you obviously have hard time reading what I wrote twice already.

It's more of an issue to understand what you're trying to represent here - your own views, or the views or some general mass of people. Or both, or neither...

If I keep installer intact, it means I have a local copy. I don't see any point in keeping installers of all my games on my active notebook for 10 years or more. System SSDs are meant for other things.

And I wrote exactly that: "...if I want to play a game I own again, I need to download it again. For that I need account on GOG. Or I have to create a physical copy at home." And now you open my eyes to the fact, that my copy of installer will still work. Thank you!

Yeap, you either have a choice to trust online services, or keep the installer in local storage. A third alternative does not, and never will, exist, since it's just impossible.

For some reason you preferred to ignore the part of my message where I use words "in real world". "And in the real world most digital releases DO imply that you need to be online to use/activate/patch them. You can download whatever you want from Steam, but without active online account you'll not be able to actually play the games you bought." Concentrating on GOG does not describe the whole picture, obviously.

It does describe the whole situation for those who are DRM-conscious. If I don't buy games with DRM, I don't have any issues with DRM.

Why in the world you compare cost of burning DVD at home with the cost of DVD in store? Are they the same? Don't you realize that the price of DVD from store includes many more things other than the price of burning (or rather printing)?

Honestly, though, the prices in brick-and-mortar stores are usually the same as the prices of a download. Because the brick-and-mortar stores ask the publishers to set the prices such, or else nobody would ever buy from them. So to offset that, the publishers artificially increase the price of the digital download.

For instance, it includes the price of the game itself, intellectual property, which in case of digital distribution you have to acquire separately.

Objection! There is no such thing as "intellectual property".

Really? I point out that digital distribution is either more risky OR more expensive than traditional, and your argument is improving the more expensive part?

Do you actually believe that adopting advanced NAS technologies is a way for millions gamers?

Millions? No. The ones that are paranoid or want to be absolutely certain? Yes. The technologies are there for a reason, and they do help. It's only a matter of being aware of the options.

[hellegennes]

"Why in the world you compare cost of burning DVD at home with the cost of DVD in store? Are they the same? Don't you realize that the price of DVD from store includes many more things other than the price of burning (or rather printing)? For instance, it includes the price of the game itself, intellectual property, which in case of digital distribution you have to acquire separately."



No, no and no. I am comparing the cost of burning the DVD yourself versus the cost of buying a physical copy, developer's earnings excluded. To give an example, for a game priced at $20, the developer will either sell it for $30 in physical format or, if they want to give the impression that it's not that much more expensive, sell it for $20 but settling for earnings of $10 per copy.



This happens because selling the game in a physical format creates a host of other costs, such as shipping the game*, paying the intermediaries involved, sometimes paying a local publisher (NWC, for example, had a different publisher in Europe, before 3DO's times), value added taxes (which in some countries add significantly to the price), import taxes (if the game has to be imported in your country) and finally paying the local shop.



In some cases, these costs amount to more than $10. Hence, for a game priced at $30, 10 dollars cover all of the aforementioned costs and only 20 dollars end up with the developer. So, when I say that burning a DVD copy yourself is 20-100 times cheaper, I mean that you pay for none of these things, apart from the cost of the blank DVD itself. It's $0.1-0.5 VS $10, really. Again, this is a comparison between costs that do not involve the actual IP. The 10 dollars figure refers to distribution and misc costs only.





* for blank DVDs you only pay shipping costs once.
Edited on Thu, Mar 28 2013, 13:32 by hellegennes

[Dalai]

No, no and no. I am comparing the cost of burning the DVD yourself

Ok, if you spend just 10 cents on empty DVD + equipment depreciation + cost of your time, it's no wonder that your DVDs fail you. In my experience just a cheap plastic DVD-case alone is more expensive than that.

versus the cost of buying a physical copy, developer's earnings excluded. To give an example, for a game priced at $20, the developer will either sell it for $30 in physical format or, if they want to give the impression that it's not that much more expensive, sell it for $20 but settling for earnings of $10 per copy.

That's interesting. I think you and GreatEmerald have something to discuss, as he thinks that

prices in brick-and-mortar stores are usually the same as the prices of a download. Because the brick-and-mortar stores ask the publishers to set the prices such, or else nobody would ever buy from them. So to offset that, the publishers artificially increase the price of the digital download.

There is no "game is priced A$, but sells for B$". There is just a price. Developers don't sell games, publishers do.

Digital release is a way to increase their share in revenue through decreasing retailer's share AND imposing additional cost on consumer AND/OR increasing their risks. To guide your attention away from this fact industry paints a villain (retail) and "fights" for your "freedom". Of course you can suffer a little bit, after all - it's a "war for freedom"!

Two indisputable facts remain:
1. It has nothing to do with developers.
2. Factory-made DVD is much cheaper and more reliable at the same time.

This happens because selling the game in a physical format creates a host of other costs, such as shipping the game*, paying the intermediaries involved, sometimes paying a local publisher (NWC, for example, had a different publisher in Europe, before 3DO's times)

Every link in the chain plays it's role and adds something to end result. If there were no publisher in Europe, Germany would not be the second by number of visitors here, on celestialheavens.com. 3DO could terminate the contract any time, but for some reason they didn't. It means that intermediary adds to success.

value added taxes (which in some countries add significantly to the price), import taxes (if the game has to be imported in your country) and finally paying the local shop.

Oh, you don't want to pay taxes in your country? That's very different from just using "torrent edition" of the software

You pay extra to local shop only if you need it's display, choice and consulting services. Otherwise you can order DVD by mail. Often without paying taxes, btw.

[Dalai]

It's more of an issue to understand what you're trying to represent here - your own views, or the views or some general mass of people. Or both, or neither...

Or an issue of reading diagonally.

Yeap, you either have a choice to trust online services, or keep the installer in local storage. A third alternative does not, and never will, exist, since it's just impossible.

Until we count alternatives. Let's do it right now.
1. I keep my purchased software "in the cloud" - Steam, GOG, Origin, etc.
2. I download the installer and create a local copy.
3. I purchase a factory-made DVD.

Behold the impossible.

It does describe the whole situation for those who are DRM-conscious. If I don't buy games with DRM, I don't have any issues with DRM.

Let's discuss the problem for a subset of people, who don't purchase software at all. Oh, there are no problems! Great!

When GOG will offer some meaningful amount of new games we can return to this argument. None of the games I wanted to play last couple years are present on GOG. No hope for high-quality games, like XCOM. Even MM:H6 is not there! (not that I ever planned to buy it anyway)

Objection! There is no such thing as "intellectual property".

Overruled. Laws active today in most countries say differently.

Millions? No. The ones that are paranoid or want to be absolutely certain? Yes. The technologies are there for a reason, and they do help. It's only a matter of being aware of the options.

It's not about paranoia. I just pointed out that digital distribution does not "just make it cheaper". It's more complex and has a lot of other consequences. Some of them under certain conditions may be very serious.