Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

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Kalah
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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby Kalah » Jul 19 2012, 0:00

<img src="http://celestialheavens.com/homm5/images/skills/Learning_3.jpg" align=right vspace=5 hspace=5>I have been told that the developers of <i>Pirates of the Savage Sea</i> are keen to know what the fans think about the campaign, in particular the story. All of <i>Heroes VI</i> is (as we know) heavily based on campaigns. The quality of the story, therefore, is paramount.

The original campaigns were written by Jeff Spock and friends; the main writer for the return to VARN was fellow fanboy Julien <i>'Marzhin'</i> Pirou.

So, what did you think about the writing and story of the Crag campaign and VARN scenario map?

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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby MoNoXiDeBlue » Jul 19 2012, 5:52

Argh! I 'ave yet te play it! Seriously Kal, his last name is Spock? LOL

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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby Loco Blutaxt » Jul 19 2012, 6:57

I do not buy DLC for Heroes VI. But LotA was awesome so I would vote for Marzhin if the question behind the question ist:
Would you like him being the storywriter and/or mapdesigner of an addon?

Edited on Thu, Jul 19 2012, 02:59 by Loco Blutaxt
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Re: Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby Marzhin » Jul 19 2012, 11:16

MoNoXiDeBlue wrote:Argh! I 'ave yet te play it! Seriously Kal, his last name is Spock? LOL


Believe it or not, Clash of Heroes was written with Capybara's own writer... Dan Vader. That's right - Spock and Vader :)

@Loco Blutaxt: it was more for my own personal benefit. Since it's the first time I write an "official" M&M product, I still have a lot to learn, and to better understand what I got right (or not :)) I need feedback :) Although thanks for the vote of confidence ^^

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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby ShardofTruth » Jul 19 2012, 12:36

Having never played M&M 1 or 2 (but Legends lol) I really liked the Varn map, although I think I missed the background reference in the quests several times. The map's design was truly unique, making more use of the available resources. Now I really wish for another M&M map but from Terra onwards please;-)

The new Pirate campaign was also good, although my favorite pirate campaign is still the Heroes IV one. The story was well incorperated in the Ashan background story without playing the Demons vs. Angels vs. Faceless card. What I really liked were the "personality quests" of Crag Hack (if you can call them that way), much more believable than what happened in the main campaigns. The only bad thing about this campaign is that it's really short, I wish there was more to do and to see.

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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby Raziel666 » Jul 19 2012, 14:14

The Story of the Pirate campaign was wayyyyy better than the main one. Especially the presentation was better (more detailed). However it was definitely too short.

The Varn Map was also nice, but due to the lack of AI a bit boring to play.

Some comment for Marzhin: The story was nice, but it shouldnt be triggerd all in the beginning, after some days. In this way we have all the story in the beginning, and then while playing nothing happens anymore. Especialy the accomplishment of the sidequests didnt add some story elementts. So it would have been nice, if there where some more story elements that are triggered by reachng som places on the map.
thats my point of view.

regards. ;)

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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby Wurtzel » Jul 19 2012, 14:59

I agree with Raziel666 in most parts... I found the second part/map a bit too easy (on normal level) compared to the first.. Also, on the first map, when we got to the boss at the end, (Trying not give any spoilers away) was it by design that my army was nerfed at the start of the combat??? EG, I had 47 cyclopes but in the combat only 16... Overall a good little storyline, well made maps but just needed the ai tweaked up a little more...
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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby saugeen123 » Jul 19 2012, 18:18

I have completed Pirates of the Sea and enjoyed it very much. Had a minor problem in the second half but managed to overcome my problem. The second half was a bit anticlamactic. I was hoping for more involment of the opponent. I liked the character of Crac Hack. Marzhin- you did a wonderful job.

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Postby Venger » Jul 19 2012, 19:48

Marzhin, I played LotA and I played the H6 Necro campaign, and I played this, and you are waaay better than those horrible hacks Ubi had writing H5, Dark Messiah and everything else.
I might add, I think you're also the only Ubi writer who ever bothered to ask for feedback from the community. So kudos. I have a bit of feedback.

– As much as I like your writing, sorry but this DLC is simply not worth €10. €5 would be very pleasant and reasonable, €10 is extortion. Not based on your writing, just longevity value alone. It's just much too short. Even Heroes Chronicles gave you nine maps back in the day, and much more involved and text-heavy stories.
– It's a pity the Crag Hack and Falagar voice actors aren't the same guys from Shadows of Death and so, but they do fairly good imitations I guess.
– I don't really like the RPG-type maps with no empire-building, but map 1 is an exception, was very good. The opening cutscenes were great. The dialogue is snappy and fun, not like this bland trash they used in the old campaigns. It's sort of weird that Crag Hack is suddenly a pirate now, But I guess it works.
– I really liked the little touch where Falagar says "these signs and omens could have but one meaning", which is what he said in Might and Magic 6 way back.
– The second map is an anticlimax like everyone says. This campaign had high potential and starts great but it is too short. You gotta expand the plot and make more maps here friend, even if they're short and sweet. I guess some of the bigger problems with H6 are to blame, though (like the editor)
– Stupid geeky point to make, but why is Ragnar Ironfist wearing the exact same armor they wear on Ashan with the sun cross. Shouldn't he be wearing armor more like Morglin's or Roland's.
– The writing in the VARN map is a bit weaker than the Crag Hack story, and you can kinda tell by the flow in some places that it wasn't written by a native English speaker (no offense cos your English is way better than my French will ever be). I also sorta expected a really involved, complicated story with long text walls like in Heroes Chronicles or in LotA. But it's very short and superficial. You just threw some paragraphs at us at the start and that was it. You don't get a sense of the characters or the world (but hey it's still *100 better than the crap they churned out for Heroes 5). The map is richly designed, and all the little callbacks to the first Might and Magic game were awesome, but I just wish you'd written much more text and expanded the story more. Just maybe look back at what they did in Heroes Chronicles or Heroes 4.
– Likewise it's a pity we couldn't play as Ragnar, Guthbert, Agar or Ranalou. It feels like a big wasted opportunity here. These characters have rich, interesting backstories and great portrait art, great potential for storytelling. But they're just mooks in this map with no personality.

That's all. Thanks for asking for feedback and showing that you care. I hope you will keep writing for Heroes.

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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby CloudRiderX » Jul 20 2012, 21:35

I'm probably going to end up buying it anyway, but another map or two in the campaign would be nice. I don't know how difficult it would be to add a map to it post-release, but anything is possible, right?
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Postby Avonu » Jul 20 2012, 21:55

From what to start? Maybe from Pirates first:

- The campaign is too short, there should be at least one more map, no matter if it would be small. Just 2 missions is not enough.

First map:
- First it would be nice, if we are introduced to main character, not only "he is famous", because we don't really know, who is this person and what are his deeds. We only know, that he is Crag Hack.

- Second, secondary heroes have nothing to do. They just say few worlds and that all. They don't do anything more in campaigns. Just look at Bart Brimestone - he say few worlds at begining and later disappear. Falagar also is not type of secondary what we saw in HVI - there these heroes often had something to say about main hero actions, Falagar has nearly nothing to say.

- Third, there is no mention or quest how to get access to second island. It is not clear, that you must remove ice wall with Falagar. If only Crag Hack say something like "What a big wall and it's immune to steel. Maybe a mage could remove it?", but nope, no hint for player what to do next.

- Fourth, map desing and player actions often go in two different directions (what is especially seen on second map). In here player can plunder wrecked galleon before he even meet Falagar, and sell artifact needed for him. Quest will complete anyway (good for that), but what this situation about plot progress? Same for totem on tears path, it was completed before I even get this quest because I vistied this place at first and obtain needed item but got the quest later.

- Fifth, after player defeat AI he still must fight dozens of neutral creatures in the undergrounds. This part of map is boring like hell and really unnecessary. If you want to show there are elementals below these islands, make one or two strong stack and short tunnels but not hordes of the same stack copy/paste on all the path from one entrance to another.

- Sixth, I don't know if I missed something, but Jon story from second map wasn't hinted anyway in first map.

- Seventh, whoever desinged this map and whoever tested it, should be kick in their... How hard it was to check if all achievements are possible to obtain?Yes, I am speaking about "Kill all neutrals" and Arena bug. :P


Second map:
- First, why the hell break door if you can easy going around them? :P And in first place, why to lock your prisoners in place where are no walls and you can easy just go away?

- Second, idea of getting more troops by defeat their guards was fine, but as in case of elementals on first map, it was boring, because there was too many fights for 1 or 2 units and because Crag Hak was overpowered.

- Third, there is no indication that doors in the underground are not possible to open from outside. Maybe Falagar should say word or two?

- Fourth, as mentioned above, player choices and map desinger choises are two different paths. Desinger want from player to: capture enemy town on first island, capture enemy town on second island, go to pirate town, get new quest, capture fort, defeat Kaishin and capture last enemy town.
The player however: captured first and second city, captured fort, defeated Kaishin and eliminated AI, because it was easier to first defeat enemy and later done quests.

- Fifth, when you introduce new things, like dynasty weapon or new adventure map building, do it ASAP, not at the end of campaign, where they are just useless. If Sword of Pirate King was to obtain in the begining of first map, it would have use. It has none, because when Crag Hack get it, map is nearly cleared. Same for Elemental Conflux, no use for elementals which can be recruit there.
How hard was to create third map,which would begin after Crag Hack defeat Kaishin and let say sailed to vulcanic island, but Himiko sunk pirate fleet and now Crag Hack need to use Confluxes to get new troops to defeat her? Small map with only vulcanic island and no towns but at least it would be something.


What was fine? Boss fight - yes, it still was easy but at least this time it was no one-round fight and trick with tree was something nice.
Geting Falagar after completing this campaign also was nice but why we could have the same solution in HVI campaigns and we are forced to use Altar of Wishes? Or we can now?


Now Princess of VARN map:

- First, it's too big. I know that you Marzhin wanted to recreate VARN from MM1 as close as possible, but this map is simple boring.

- Second, there is no explanation for new players, what has happened in MM1 - who was imposter, how he was defeated, why Guthbert is so angry on Varnians, who is Ragnar an whoes he is afraid and why, etc. I think that Penelope should mentions these events as not only homage to MM1 and HoMM1 but also to reflect her and VARN past and why present situation is looking like that.

- Third, this map is simply "defeat all enemies", not story mode one. There is not enough story in it. Compared to Heroes Chronicles, to HoMMIV or even to Legends of the Ancients there is no story in this map. I think you should also add event when Penelope appear near city or famous place and she should say few words about it (like for example: "Algary, the city of someone/something, where 25 years ago (in MM1) that has happened."). There are few text in quests about past but it is nearly nothing.

- Fourth, I think that instead making so big maps and later converted them to MP maps, it would be better to add only few smaller MP maps, desinged just for multiplayer and not converted from campaign or scenario maps. Good story-mode map won't be good multiplayer map and vice-versa.
I prefer story-mode maps but HVI is lacking good MP maps which use HVI mechanics to their advantage.

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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby Marzhin » Jul 21 2012, 11:37

Well thanks Avonu for that long feedback :) Many valid points here. Although a couple of thoughts:

- we preferred to let the map open (even meaning the player could complete quests before getting them) because else it would have been very linear which is not in my opinion a good thing for Heroes. But I agree it is debatable.

- There is actually a voice-over triggering when you bring Crag close to the ice wall, saying "I need a Wizard to remove it". It seemed a clear enough clue, without adding this as an objective. But it seems many people don't get that line, which seems to indicate it doesn't trigger in some cases. Now we need to find out why.
edit: I tested the map in 1.5.1 and got it alright. Here's a screenshot.

- Same thing for Jon. When you defeat him in Map 1, there should be a long dialog revealing his connexion to Crag. Again, some people seem to miss that dialog, so it could be a bug with the trigger.

- About the "kill all neutrals" achivement bug, it is actually not caused by the Arena buildings. The cause has been found and it should be fixed in 1.5.2.
Last edited by Marzhin on Jul 21 2012, 16:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Toejam » Jul 21 2012, 14:13

Just finished the first map and i must say i'm a little dissapointed

The hole map is much too easy until you come too the end were you are forced to loose half your amry because of some impassable fire elementals, then to realise that all was for nothing anyway because at the end you just get a fixed fight...

Can't comment on the hole campaign but i hope it get's better

The story itself is fine
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Re: Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby jeff » Jul 21 2012, 14:16

Marzhin wrote:- There is actually a voice-over triggering when you bring Crag close to the ice wall, saying "I need a Wizard to remove it". It seemed a clear enough clue, without adding this as an objective. But it seems many people don't get that line

- Same thing for Jon. When you defeat him in Map 1, there should be a long dialog revealing his connexion to Crag. Again, some people seem to miss that dialog, so it could be a bug with the trigger.


Welcome to the new age of player who does not know how to play a RPG type game, and the fact dialogs are usually there for a reason. When I get questions from players having difficulty with one of my campaigns; it's almost always because they ignored the clues in the text. ;|

BTW the screenshot failed to open.
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Re: Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby Avonu » Jul 21 2012, 15:26

jeff wrote:Welcome to the new age of player who does not know how to play a RPG type game, and the fact dialogs are usually there for a reason. When I get questions from players having difficulty with one of my campaigns; it's almost always because they ignored the clues in the text. ;|

Jeff, the problem is that there was no such information in my game. Both triggers didn't work and these texts/voiceovers didn't show up.
It's not about player who ignores mapmaker clues (because that one about Falagar living somewhere near was OK and enough) but about something which simply don't work and how player should know what to do next?
Well, the smarter one will find a way sooner or later, but casual one? He probably will try another map/game.

@Marzhin
Good to hear it is not mapmaker fault but it is sad that we again got more bugs and repeat from HV, where some dialogues in campaigns were missing at release.
And yes, I miss both these dialogues in Pirates - there was no text from your screenshot or any dialogue between Jon and Crag Hack after the battle (the last one was just before battle).

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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby ShardofTruth » Jul 21 2012, 16:42

The "I need a Wizard"-trigger worked for me but not the one after fighting Jon, strange.

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Postby Avonu » Jul 22 2012, 18:11

Just to clarify one thing, there is a text in second Crag Hack's mission about door in Sunken Temple but it is confusing somehow:

Closed by some magic. I wonder what the Medusa is keeping on the other side of that door? Let's hope it's not the exit!

The first sentence could suggest that Falagar or magic artifact could open this door. As I said, if only Falagar could say word of two about it, it would help much.

BTW - I nearly forgot about this thing, which I recignized at first time:

Between the time when the Second Eclipse reddened the skies, and the rise of the sons of Tuidhana...


If not Arnold the Barbarian :P, which I watched yesterday, I would forgot about this reference in game. ;)

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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby mns3dhm » Jul 23 2012, 19:30

The campaign story was fine, but it is way too short. I finished the entire thing in two days. Give me a break.

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Have Your Say: The Pirates Story

Postby BB Shockwave » Aug 29 2012, 19:56

TWO maps for 9.99 EUR? TWO Maps? And I take it there are no new creatures, spells or any other new thing that'd have required a new mesh/model in it?

I am sorry, writing could be as great as it can, but I am not spending close to 4000 HUF on this... I could buy a full (older) game from this money. Compare this expansion pack to what 1C gave us in Armored Princess - new skills, new spells, a whole new race (Lizardmen), lots of new neutral creatures, and extra skills/abilities for existing ones.

Again, I say... as bad as 3DO was near the "end days", it is nowhere near as bad as Ubi now is. I stopped playing HOMM VI during the Necropolis campaign simply because of the abysmally slow loading times and the upteenth times Conflux decided to disconnet me on a whim. Diablo III had similar problems in the beginning, but they fixed them in a week...
Edited on Wed, Aug 29 2012, 15:56 by BB Shockwave


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