Patch 1.3 Launches, Black Hole Replaced

[hellegennes]

For me, H6 is certainly not a disaster and in many aspects it's a great game which, for some reasons, was released much too early. I admit to not have played it for a long time, because of its issues but it had the potential to be the best of the series. I certainly don't agree with many of the dislikes, like the Sanctuary, the skill system, the area of control, the lack of a mage guild, etc, although I do agree they could be better implemented. I also believe that the game is salvageable.

[michiganjf]

Too bad such a beautifully rendered game like H6 was pretty much ruined by such a poor skill system.



The skill system should be varied enough in choice and between factions that it allows for real variety in game play styles, tactics, and strategies.



All high level H6 heroes end up similar enough in their skill set, that the style of play ultimately varies very little.



I've gone back to older versions of Heroes, hoping only that H7 is made someday, using a much better conceived skill system... something like the H5 skill system, greatly expanded upon.

[Infiltrator]

Well if anyone is to blame it's the suits. They put in the money and with that, force ideas like the nexus system, the simplification of things to obtain a larger audience.



Truth be told a lot of developers came up with great games in fields that they were pretty much unexplored territory for them, so I'll give Limbic the benefit of the doubt for now, BUT they got their work cut out for them - Heroes 6 is far from a finished game.

[Kelben]

I tend to side with hellegenes in the sense I agree the changes give a new breath to the series, less randomness. Let's hope then with Limbic on board, things will slowly get straighten.

[vicheron]

>Which basically means the story sucked at the moment it's supposed to explain everything and tie up the loose ends. You know... that spell Kreia used to kill all those Jedi was cool, but then it made me wonder why she didn't use it on her fellow Sith Lords in the first place. Also... everyone in that game's as gullible as a brain-dead American living under the bible belt and ripe to be manipulated by that very subtle and completely innocent-looking old lady.



You completely missed the point of the game.



A lot of the things in the game, like Kreia's true intentions, are meant to be open to interpretation. There's already a ton of clues to what Kreia really wants. Much of it tends to be subtle and you have to look at it like a mystery story.



The power Kreia used on the Jedi Masters doesn't work on the Sith Lords because it's used to sever a person's connection with the Force but since Nihilus is already a hole in the Force, it's useless against him.



People in the game are not gullible. It's very obvious from the start that Kreia is manipulating everyone. She directly tells the Exile that she treats everyone like tools and will sacrifice them when necessary or toss them away when they're no longer useful. You gain influence with Kreia by telling her that you will try to manipulate and use her.



Kreia is able to manipulate people not because the characters are gullible but because Kreia knows their darkest secrets and uses that to make them obey her. She also uses people's vulnerabilities to break down their mental defenses and control them with the Force.

[Metathron]

I tend to side with hellegenes in the sense I agree the changes give a new breath to the series, less randomness.

A little less randomness when leveling up would have been appreciated. What we have now in sterility.

[Dalai]

I do believe Limbic is a good developer - Anno series is a great reference. But I also believe that game-design-wise H6 is stillborn. So they would better charge Ubisoft twice the normal rate for unavoidable reputation risk. Upfront.

I do believe these changes were interesting on paper.

I do not.
May be they were interesting for extremely clueless outsider.

To keep any game series alive you have to try new things – sometimes these things work, sometimes they don’t

But there is a big difference between trying thought out innovations and just making random changes for the sake of changes.
There are also traditions like "Titan or Black Dargon?" which have to be honored. But one should at least be aware if their existence, which does not seem to be the case with Ubisoft and their cheap subcontractors.

areas where I am proud of the work we did

Can you please give some examples? Especially considering "Being only a freelancer and not having participated in any business decisions". I fail to see them , and people at Ubisoft Community Relations neither talk to communities nor establish relations.

[Groovy]

I do believe these changes were interesting on paper.

I do not.
May be they were interesting for extremely clueless outsider.

Does anyone know who was Ubisoft's target market for H6? I get the impression that the kind of game that I wanted H6 to be and the kind of game that Ubisoft was trying to make were poles apart. Which tells me that I simply wasn't in the target market rather than that the changes failed to deliver.

[Kalah]

It looks like they aimed the game at a larger audience, not a bad strategy, but with the benefit of hindsight probably unwise. Instead, a better strategy might have been to make it really appealing to the core fans, who would in turn have promoted it better. I guess it all depends upon the actual sales figures, which we haven't gotten yet.

[Toejam]

Hey, not to worry people

since it's almost end of april, and according to the scedule, patch 1.4 is nearly here ... lmao

[ywhtptgtfo]

>You completely missed the point of the game.



Nope, I didn't.



>A lot of the things in the game, like Kreia's true intentions, are meant to be open to interpretation. There's already a ton of clues to what Kreia really wants. Much of it tends to be subtle and you have to look at it like a mystery story.



Her story is very simple. She lost faith in the "light side" because Revan fell. Then she lost her faith in the "dark side" after she got overthrown. At the time of KOTOR 2's beginning, she felt neither side is stronger and that she wanted to destroy the force because she was sick of its manipulation. She's enarmoured with the PC because the PC can live without the force whereas Jedi's tend to die without it.



Oh yeah, the whole concept of "light side" and "dark side" is bull and I personally don't take the Star Wars cosmology seriously, but KOTOR 1's a great game so I got KOTOR 2.



>The power Kreia used on the Jedi Masters doesn't work on the Sith Lords because it's used to sever a person's connection with the Force but since Nihilus is already a hole in the Force, it's useless against him.



Darth Sion (who btw suddenly became a good little boy to her in the end)? He's not cut off. Also, this stupid concept of Nihilus being a "hole" is dumb. How can you not be connected to but wield it at the same time?



>People in the game are not gullible. It's very obvious from the start that Kreia is manipulating everyone.



It's obvious to the player because the player is usually not as dumb as a pile of bricks. I don't see anyone who comes off as even remotely intelligent in the game except for Kreia. The Siths? Idiots. The Sith henchmen? Idiots. The handmaiden and sisters? Mean girls. That bisexual ex-Jedi kid? Juvenile. Mira? Juvenile. Tattoo-face? Can't imagine he headed The Manhattan Project. T3-E4 and AK-47? Smartest guys in the game - because they aren't human.



Sure... you are right that she does use blackmail, but I think those tools listened to her largely because of something else... like stupidity.
Edited on Thu, Apr 19 2012, 14:40 by ywhtptgtfo

[vicheron]

>Her story is very simple. She lost faith in the "light side" because Revan fell. Then she lost her faith in the "dark side" after she got overthrown. At the time of KOTOR 2's beginning, she felt neither side is stronger and that she wanted to destroy the force because she was sick of its manipulation. She's enarmoured with the PC because the PC can live without the force whereas Jedi's tend to die without it.



Oh yeah, the whole concept of "light side" and "dark side" is bull and I personally don't take the Star Wars cosmology seriously, but KOTOR 1's a great game so I got KOTOR 2.



Nope, you either missed a lot of the dialogue or didn't pay attention.



If you pay attention then you'll notice a lot of clues that hint at her true beliefs and intentions.



Turning to the Dark side wasn't a matter of faith for Kreia, it was a matter of curiosity. She never lost faith in the Dark side because she never had faith in it. She was simply disappointed by Nihilus and Sion, who became slaves to their powers. Instead of using the Dark side to serve their own goals, they succumbed to their addiction to its powers.



Kreia does not want to destroy the Force. When Disciple asks her about her desire to destroy the Force, she rebukes him by asking him why she would do such a thing and what she could possibly gain from it. There's also some dialogue with the Exile that hints at her wanting to save the Force.



>Darth Sion (who btw suddenly became a good little boy to her in the end)? He's not cut off. Also, this stupid concept of Nihilus being a "hole" is dumb. How can you not be connected to but wield it at the same time?



Nihilus is not connected to the Force in any traditional sense but he has power over the Force because he's basically a black hole that sucks up the Force.



As for Sion, the whole point of the character is that even though he thinks of himself as a master of his own destiny, deep down, he is really a slave, subservient to his addiction to the Dark side. Kreia is able to control him because without his master, the only thing Sion has to live for is pain.



>It's obvious to the player because the player is usually not as dumb as a pile of bricks. I don't see anyone who comes off as even remotely intelligent in the game except for Kreia. The Siths? Idiots. The Sith henchmen? Idiots. The handmaiden and sisters? Mean girls. That bisexual ex-Jedi kid? Juvenile. Mira? Juvenile. Tattoo-face? Can't imagine he headed The Manhattan Project. T3-E4 and AK-47? Smartest guys in the game - because they aren't human.



Sure... you are right that she does use blackmail, but I think those tools listened to her largely because of something else... like stupidity.



No, if you actually played the game then you'll notice that the other characters outright say that they don't trust Kreia. They actively plot against Kreia and try to free themselves from her influence. There are even several scenes where they try to confront Kreia but are defeated or mind controlled by her.



And how exactly does being blackmailed and mind controlled make them stupid?

[ywhtptgtfo]

>Nope, you either missed a lot of the dialogue or didn't pay attention.



There were extensive debates in the Obsidian Entertainment forums on many aspects of the plot with active participation from developers... so it's not like I played the game for 1 hour and made the verdict. Here's a good read from Wookiepedia, which is about as "canon" as it can get for Star Wars:



http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Traya



Since KOTOR 2 sucked, I don't really want to get into a full debate on it. But here's one point I felt like addressing above all:



>Nihilus is not connected to the Force in any traditional sense but he has power over the Force because he's basically a black hole that sucks up the Force.



I suppose because he's this super deux-ex blackhole, he can pull a force choke on that blind wannabe Sith girl and yet not be connected to the force. It's like a mage who absorbs mana, can cast lightning bolt, but is not connected to magic itself. Yeah... that totally makes sense... even in a fantasy setting.

[ThunderTitan]

>(which has a stupid cartoony feel
I'd much rather play through a game with minimal narrative<

Oh, you're one of those...

>that spell Kreia used to kill all those Jedi was cool, but then it made me wonder why she didn't use it on her fellow Sith Lords in the first place.<

Besides the fact that you and those 2 guys where immune to it on account of surviving malachor?

Yeah, the "cut off from teh force" thing wasn't explained very well and it was just a plot device, but it works if you go more with the wound in the force stuff... too bad the canon guys at lucasart went the other way...

> Also... everyone in that game's as gullible as a brain-dead American living under the bible belt and ripe to be manipulated by that very subtle and completely innocent-looking old lady.<

Dude, the best manipulations are those that you know are manipulations and yet still work... i mean everyone was talking about Kreia being shady half the time...

>Which basically means the story sucked at the moment it's supposed to explain everything and tie up the loose ends.<

Imo they explained it just fine, what was missing is and actually complex ending where your choices make a difference and your companions matter...

[hellegennes]

And I thought Celestial Heavens was a Heroes website.

[Kalah]

It's not. It's an M&M website.

[hellegennes]

I was sure someone would come out and say that. I just didn't expect it would be you. :p

[XEL II]

I was sure someone would come out and say that. I just didn't expect it would be you. :p

Probably because it is an MM website and Kalah is a member of the site's staff. Though CH is still a website about Heroes, too, as well as all the other part of MM franchise.

[Kalah]

"Member"? Owner, thank you very much. But you can call me "boss".

And yes, this is a place for all M&M games, including the Heroes series and other games in the franchise. We don't even stop you from discussing other games - heck, we even have a separate forum for it.

[ywhtptgtfo]

>And yes, this is a place for all M&M games, including the Heroes series and other games in the franchise



Strange... I thought Age of Heroes is the only HoMM site in the universe.