Poll: What To Do First

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Corlagon
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Postby Corlagon » Mar 29 2012, 14:42

mr.hackcrag wrote:I would like H6 to be abandoned and fresh work to begin on H7.


I'm not sure that I understand this train of thought. Heroes V was a mess, but became good enough with expansions to warrant a second chance. Heroes VI squandered that chance in the majority of respects. So you support extending a third chance with even less to work with than before?

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Postby hellegennes » Mar 29 2012, 18:56

@XEL II:

So, you basically want to turn back time. You do realise NWC is gone, right? Also, that former NWC employees are actual living beings, thus are not sitting in a pool waiting for Ubisoft to hire them for a new project. They don't even live in the same continent (Ubi have their headquarters in France while NWC was California-based, hence their employees were most probably US citizens).

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Postby XEL II » Mar 29 2012, 19:46

Quite a few peopel from former NWC team would like to join in making something Might and Magic-themed. Even JVC himself expressed regret in selling rights to MM franchise.

And, please, this "they're living beings who can't just work" crap is laughable. Them working on a game means they're paid, just like any game developer. Furthermore, all MM games by Ubisoft were made by companies contracted by them. And said companies were based in countries very distant from France.

Getting former MM developers to work on MMX wouldn't be hard if they could be convinced. Which, in case of many of them, wouldn't be hard. But again, I don't believe Ubisoft would do something good to the franchise like that.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Poll: What To Do First

Postby Kalah » Mar 29 2012, 20:39

I realized something when I was watching an interview with Eric Idle, who compared the Pythons with The Beatles. Fans are always saying hwo they want the band back together ... as Idle was saying, that means you want to be young again, not that you want those old geezers to start up something new. The world has changed and to think that the old employees of NWC coming back is going to make you completely happy is probably setting your hopes too high. If they came back to make a new M&M game or even the next Heroes game, those who prayed for just such an eventuality would probably end up both disappointed and disillusioned.
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Postby jeff » Mar 29 2012, 22:31

@Dalai
I agree with you, bad design and marketing decisions should be punished. I do not think fans should buy H-6 to save the series, unless it is fixed. What I meant was I believe UBI will put H-6’s failure down to lack of interest in the Heroes series and not their mistakes. They will point to the fact they created two sequels and saw sales decline. The fact neither had a good editor which is vital in keeping fans interested. The overall quality of the two I leave to others as I have not bought H-6.
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Postby hellegennes » Mar 29 2012, 22:51

@XEL II:
Do you even understand what I'm talking about? Them being living beings, means that they are not just cogs working on a franchise and remain inactive when the franchise changes course. They do not wait for another chance to get back together and create another MM game, they found other jobs when NWC closed. They are not together anymore; they are not a team. They just happened to be employed by NWC at the time these games were created. They don't care about getting back together for you, they have their lives to get on with. For them, the MM franchise was just a job they happened to be a part of; each one employee separately, mind you. No one would give up their full time job for an opportunity to work again on an MM project, even if they did care about to begin with. Their lives do not revolve around MM.

Finally, Ubisoft may use subcontractors to develop a game, but most of their partners or subsidiaries are based in Europe (both Nival and Black Hole are, for that matter).

These people who created the MM franchise have other jobs now, they have families and they live in different cities, most probably. They went on with their lives. JVC is not only just one person but he is the creator of the MM franchise and founder of NWC. Of course he cares more because MM is his brainchild. However, even JVC doesn't care that much so that he would blow off his life as it is to create another game just because you want to.

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Postby XEL II » Mar 29 2012, 22:56

Funny to see how you vehemently oppose any suggestion for reviving MM franchise.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Kalah » Mar 30 2012, 9:06

I see both points; there is no doubt that the M&M franchise has been revived, but I suppose not in the way most of the really hard-core fans would have wanted.

I still maintain my earlier point, though, thus coming down on the side of hellegennes in the overall debate: NWC is dead and buried. Wishing for the old crew to come back is wanting things to be the way they were before; it's nostalgia rather than a realistic plan for the future of the franchise. We are talking about the guys who made the Forge, after all - even NWC did things the fans hated.

What I am hoping for is a continuation of the dedication of the Community; some of the fans (e.g. Marzhin) are in fact working on the game itself, taking their love for the original series into their work and building from there. If we can combine that dedication with some more of it from Ubisoft, we're golden. All I want from Ubi is a big fat check and the green light to the dedicated dev team to do what they think is best for the game(s).
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Postby XEL II » Mar 30 2012, 9:34

Don't speak for all fans when talking about the Forge. Many fans were positive towards this idea.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby hellegennes » Mar 30 2012, 10:04

Many fans are not the same as the majority. There are many fans who like H6 as it is. I like it, for one. I believe that with another year in development it could very well be a candidate for the best title in the series. I like its feel, its gameplay and the new ideas it brought forth. What prevents it from being such a candidate are the numerous bugs, balance and the lack of a good map editor.

I have said many times that H2 is what I consider the best title in the series and this is the opinion of "many fans". Yet, H3 is the most popular, despite the fact that it was basically H2 with improved graphics and more content. It essentially changed nothing over H2, except for the music, which was a bad thing, since we are talking about downgrading. But, again, these are personal thoughts.

I agree with Kalah. When you are talking about NWC, it's nostalgia speaking. We are not talking about feasible things, here. Heck, even the creativity of people normally fades away with time, especially in an industry like videogame production, where being young is essential in order to create great games.

I surely want a M&M 10 like crazy, but it's not going to happen through former NWC employees. NWC is gone and with them, after all these years, gone is whatever helped in making the games you loved. Remember that MM9 was a game made by NWC just before the end. And it was not horrible but certainly not to par with even the worst other title in the series.

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Postby Avonu » Mar 30 2012, 10:19

Kalah wrote:We are talking about the guys who made the Forge, after all - even NWC did things the fans hated.


Greg Fulton wrote:DO YOU THINK 50% OF THE HEROES FANS WERE AGAINST THE FORGE?

No. Total, the number of emails we received asking to remove the Forge were less than 100.

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Postby Kalah » Mar 30 2012, 10:19

XEL II wrote:Don't speak for all fans when talking about the Forge. Many fans were positive towards this idea.


True, but equally many (at least) were completely against it. I only mentioned it as a way of showing that there were things NWC did that were disliked. That means that even if you bring the whole team "back" tomorrow, give them complete freedom and have them make MMX, it doesn't mean that everything will be the way the fans want it. In the time they were gone, they may have had new ideas, new visions and new skills they wish to put into the games.
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Postby Avonu » Mar 30 2012, 10:23

Kalah wrote:True, but equally many (at least) were completely against it.

Not really (see my above post). Just these which had nothing to say (hate Forge) cried the loudest so they were hear and any word pro Forge was not hear.
Forge cancellation wasn't because majority of fans didn't want Forge. It was because game publisher (3DO) stupid decision (NWC still worked on Forge, even after fan "boycott").

hellegennes wrote:There are many fans who like H6 as it is. I like it, for one. I believe that with another year in development it could very well be a candidate for the best title in the series. I like its feel, its gameplay and the new ideas it brought forth. What prevents it from being such a candidate are the numerous bugs, balance and the lack of a good map editor.

HoMMVI would be a good Heroes game IF UbiHole know what to do. But they don't. They fix this or that, add this and that and bug some other things meanwhile which won't be corrected by next patch (If you have patching plan, that means any new bug won't be fixed in next release. You need to wait for second patch to get fix for bugs from previous patch - that how patching plans usually works). If they focus on what is needed first (I would say it is replayability), maybe there were hope for HVI. For today I don't see any sign of progress.
Not that HVI is bad by default but current work on it is ill focused and TOO SLOW (majority of bugs should be fixed long ago).


hellegennes wrote:I have said many times that H2 is what I consider the best title in the series and this is the opinion of "many fans".

Well, it is. ;)
No, it isn't nostalia. I wanted to check something in HoMM2 some days ago and I ended with "one more turn" syndrome. Something, which HV and HVI lacks (yes, even to my surprise HIV has this).


And yes, NWC is dead and nothing will it back. Not even if you gather together JvC and all former NWC employees in one place - it is 10 years after they say goodbye to themselves and many things changed on the world meanwhile.

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Postby Dalai » Mar 30 2012, 11:59

jeff wrote:@Dalai
I agree with you, bad design and marketing decisions should be punished. I do not think fans should buy H-6 to save the series, unless it is fixed. What I meant was I believe UBI will put H-6’s failure down to lack of interest in the Heroes series and not their mistakes. They will point to the fact they created two sequels and saw sales decline. The fact neither had a good editor which is vital in keeping fans interested. The overall quality of the two I leave to others as I have not bought H-6.

It's great we agree on main points :)

Of course if they fail financially those responsible for it will try to shift responsibility elsewhere - poor market, financial crisis, aging fanbase etc. Of course in the picture they will draw they will not be to blame, but rather honored. But depending on size of loss those higher in hierarchy may be interested to investigate deeper. If the loss is substantial - there is a small chance that all this negative perception will finally reach someone who can really make some drastic decisions.

Chances for that are slim though - it's hard to suffer financial loss if you choose everything cheapest.

Although it's true that different groups of fans want different things, but there are some features that everyone wants. Like rich set of viable strategies, rich palette of objects, user-friendly campaign editor, Intelligent AI, RMG. There are some smaller things too, like town screen and magic guilds. In all of those regards Ubihole failed miserably, and someone must be punished.

Kalah wrote:If we can combine that dedication with some more of it from Ubisoft, we're golden.

Long story short - we can not. Ubisoft has none.
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