CH Exclusive: Julien Pirou Q&A

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Re: CH Exclusive: Julien Pirou Q&A

Postby Avonu » Apr 12 2011, 14:13

Vitirr wrote:Black Hole imitating Katauri? In what?


Skill trees, boss fights, battlefield changing wich each turn, etc.

HVI is full of things "inspired" by other games: Areas of Controls, Power-ups on battlefields, Hero Inventory, Town "growning" on adventure map, etc.
How will this all work, we will see.

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CH Exclusive: Julien Pirou Q&A

Postby CloudRiderX » Apr 12 2011, 15:37

I'm sure Katauri could make a great Heroes game if they were given the opportunity.
Its so easy to say "Oh, King's Bounty was bad because they made silly names and lots of obvious external references," but what it all comes down to is that the game is still a magnificent re-imagining of the original King's Bounty, with excellent improvements upon both gameplay and graphics.
I have to agree with Kalah here, some people will indeed never be happy.
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Postby Pitsu » Apr 12 2011, 16:10

Vitirr wrote:
Frankly I don't see any imitation in H6 development (at least from katauri's King's Bounty), and actually it wouldn't be so bad to borrow some good ideas from that great game.


The point that Dalai did, was not whether to borrow or not, but why to do it. Homm and Kings Bounty are (were?) in different genres and an idea that works great in one, may not work so in another. Whether you borrow something or come up with original idea, it must be well reasoned, its impact to the gameplay analyzed and tested in conjunction with other gameplay elements. A problem with Ubihole right now is that the reasoning is IMO very weak/obscure/not told. Since H5 sometimes I have feeling like the game is done by "n00bs" - people who have completed several maps on impossible difficulty, have had a few hotseat matches between each other and believe that they are as aware of all shortcomings and strengths of the game as one can be. A constructor may have lot of faith in himself, work with spirit, copy parts from functional system, but that may not be enough to build a new original working machinery. I think I need more reasoned answers to WHY from Ubihole in order to think better of them.
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Re: CH Exclusive: Julien Pirou Q&A

Postby Dalai » Apr 12 2011, 20:41

Vitirr wrote:Black Hole imitating Katauri? In what?

Avonu made couple good examples. :creative:

You say skill tree is Katauri's invention?

Really??? Where? :what:

Pitsu wrote:The point that Dalai did, was not whether to borrow or not, but why to do it. Homm and Kings Bounty are (were?) in different genres and an idea that works great in one, may not work so in another. Whether you borrow something or come up with original idea, it must be well reasoned, its impact to the gameplay analyzed and tested in conjunction with other gameplay elements. A problem with Ubihole right now is that the reasoning is IMO very weak/obscure/not told. Since H5 sometimes I have feeling like the game is done by "n00bs" - people who have completed several maps on impossible difficulty, have had a few hotseat matches between each other and believe that they are as aware of all shortcomings and strengths of the game as one can be. A constructor may have lot of faith in himself, work with spirit, copy parts from functional system, but that may not be enough to build a new original working machinery. I think I need more reasoned answers to WHY from Ubihole in order to think better of them.

Exactly my point, thank you! :hoo:
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Postby jeff » Apr 12 2011, 22:09

Kalah wrote:I wonder what you guys would say if Katauri (or JVC for that matter) were handed the job of making H7. "Oh, no, they'll make a complete hash of it too" is close to my list of guesses. :D

We're never quite happy, are we. ;)


You’re right. I've said in the past and will repeat it. H-IV permanently divided the Heroes community. Many fans loved both formats, but once it was released there was a large portion that prefers the Heroes on the battlefield and multiple hero armies. These allow for better story development that can give a better RPG feel. H-IV had flaws no one denies it, but H-V blew chunks. I doubt any Heroes game regardless of the developer (including JVC) will satisfy me or many others if it continues to try to emulate H-III. Once H-IV came out I permanently turned the page of H-III and its clones. Having said that everyone knows there is an equally vocal fan base that will never accept H-IV. No one will ever completely reunite the community.
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Postby Infiltrator » Apr 13 2011, 0:19

jeff wrote:You’re right. I've said in the past and will repeat it. H-IV permanently divided the Heroes community. Many fans loved both formats, but once it was released there was a large portion that prefers the Heroes on the battlefield and multiple hero armies. These allow for better story development that can give a better RPG feel. H-IV had flaws no one denies it, but H-V blew chunks. I doubt any Heroes game regardless of the developer (including JVC) will satisfy me or many others if it continues to try to emulate H-III. Once H-IV came out I permanently turned the page of H-III and its clones. Having said that everyone knows there is an equally vocal fan base that will never accept H-IV. No one will ever completely reunite the community.


It's not that simple. The ramifications that were introduced with H4 were stretching far beyond hero involvement in battles, and the community segregation DEFINITELY did not occur due to just this. I for one will gladly take a balanced approach with heroes in combat, but the atrocity like H4? Never. H5 vanilla was a pretty buggy and unpolished game, but H4 was in comparison a train wreck.
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CH Exclusive: Julien Pirou Q&A

Postby XEL II » Apr 13 2011, 3:52

If JVC getss the rights back, first thing that should be made is Might and Magic X. Heroes, while great, is but a sub-series to the core, RPG Might and Magic series. NWC was beginning the development of MM X and HoMM V in 2003 when 3DO collapsed, and JVC was once again the lead designer with important role in development.

Might and Magic series should definetly get the new installment, and there should be people who originally worked on the series among the developers. Take Fallout for example: the latest installment, New Vegas, had many of the people who worked on the gameplay and storyline of first two games among its creators.

And of course, MM X must be set in the excellent original MM universe. Ashan is terribly half-assed and much of its lore is taken from WarCraft and Disciples universes.
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CH Exclusive: Julien Pirou Q&A

Postby Tale » Apr 13 2011, 5:30

Didn't the community separation begin with the idiocy that was Forge vs. Conflux at the end of Heroes III? One town that was so overdone that it couldn't fit whatsoever into the game, replaced by another town that was just plain terrible and badly made? Forge could have been good, if it hadn't gone so overboard. And then it was replaced by Conflux, which due to time and budgetary constraints just failed miserably. That, I think, is what really caused the divide.

I do generally like what UbiSoft has done with the story, but I agree it hasn't been done as well as it could have. What would really have helped Ashan, I think, is a much better handled in-game vehicle to deal with the story. Unfortunately, Nival really screwed up a lot when they made Heroes V, and that included the story. The cutscenes of Heroes V were so terrible that the story, no matter how good, just had no chance to be successful. And of course, what would REALLY help convey the story of Ashan is Might and Magic X... but that, for whatever reason, just doesn't seem to be in the works. :(

I think Heroes VI looks good and am looking forward to it. I disagree with a few things - namely, the shark people and overly Japanese-d theme of Sanctuary - but I'll still play it despite those, and I expect I'll enjoy it. Yes, it's different. But you know, if I wanted to play a Heroes 3 clone... I would just play Heroes 3, and save myself the time, trouble, and cost of buying another Heroes.

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CH Exclusive: Julien Pirou Q&A

Postby XEL II » Apr 13 2011, 9:25

>One town that was so overdone that it couldn't fit whatsoever into the game<

Bull****, Forge could fit very well, it was just the matter of idiocy from several "fans", who've send angry mail to NWC and 3DO, even death threats among them.

>I do generally like what UbiSoft has done with the story<

Why is that? Do you like the fact that they scrapped perfectly good original MM universe for no sensical reason? They even judged the storyline simply by HoMM campaigns, which is plain stupid, since Heroes is just a (relatively small) part of MM storyline.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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CH Exclusive: Julien Pirou Q&A

Postby Marzhin » Apr 13 2011, 12:40

@XEL II: I think a large majority of the "Might & Magic fans" are actually "Heroes fans" and never touched one of the M&M RPGs.

That's why there are still Heroes players that don't know about the SF background of the old universe. And actually, I suspect most of the "fans" (again, Heroes fans) would start a riot if a SF faction was introduced because it "doesn't have its place in Might & Magic"...

The same thing kinda happens with Sanctuary : people simply don't know that there was a Kirin in MM1, or an Asia-themed town with samurais, ninjas and monks in MM4...
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CH Exclusive: Julien Pirou Q&A

Postby XEL II » Apr 13 2011, 13:08

>I think a large majority of the "Might & Magic fans" are actually "Heroes fans" and never touched one of the M&M RPGs.<

I wouldn't say they have prevalence in terms of numbers. Just that there are nore of the aformentioned "Heroes fans" on the Internet. Still, even so, that doesn't make denying core serie or SF backstory a right thing.

I do hope that Heroes VI will tie Ashan with the original universe as you were suggesting in the interviews and videos.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby admira99 » Apr 13 2011, 13:12

ok this is getting ugly with H3 vs H6 and worse yet Ashan vs Enroth or even worse NWC vs BH. Seriously guys, H3 IS a GREAT game, I can't stress out how it is still the best in the series. Yes, it has a strong solid AI that the later (H4 before Equilibrium Mod or crappy H5's AI). Yes, it has a strong story thanks to M&M RPG games that solidly build the foundation. But it times to move on, I will feel very stupid to buy a game that actually an exact clone of the old game.

Then what's wrong with Ashan? First thing first, it has no solid BG story! I mean you can't compare several missions with few quests in the TBS game against hundreds of quest in RPG as per M&M RPG that also went about 5 (or 6) installments that built the BG Story on H3's Enroth. Second, sadly, Nival failed, an epic failed I may add by making the cutscenes so corny and unbearable voice act that I want to kill Isabel even when I played her in campaign. FYI, for me Dragon Gods and Alien Demons are both corny.

As for the gameplay, Heroes 5 IS superior in many ways, while it is difficult to say the same in term of balace issue or AI handling. Heroes 6? Promising, but I won't judge by simply looking at several artworks and screenshots, but I must admit the adventure map is beautiful.

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CH Exclusive: Julien Pirou Q&A

Postby XEL II » Apr 13 2011, 15:03

I don't find anyhting to be corny with "Alien Demons", especially considering that they aren't devils (it's merely what they are believed to be on some planets) at all. Demons are a separate race and they are actually one of the colonist races, they are not related with Kreegan.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby CloudRiderX » Apr 13 2011, 16:26

@XEL II
The Forge was a terrible town idea. Not only does it put a high-tech town amidst a medieval fantasy realm, but its 'creatures' were quite literally currently existing creatures from other factions with different weapons. They gave a zombie a chainsaw and called it a new unit. They gave a goblin a rocket launcher and called it a new unit. They made the body of the naga a tank and called it a new unit. The town's whole concept was garbage.
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Postby Angelspit » Apr 13 2011, 16:38

I wonder if we'll still be talking about the Forge ten years from now.

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Postby XEL II » Apr 13 2011, 18:01

>Not only does it put a high-tech town amidst a medieval fantasy realm<

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Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby jeff » Apr 13 2011, 20:21

Marzhin wrote:@XEL II: I think a large majority of the "Might & Magic fans" are actually "Heroes fans" and never touched one of the M&M RPGs.

That becomes more true the longer we have to wait for a true MM RPG. ;)

Marzhin wrote:The same thing kinda happens with Sanctuary : people simply don't know that there was a Kirin in MM1, or an Asia-themed town with samurais, ninjas and monks in MM4...


You know I played MM4 and I don’t remember that town. We need a new MM soon. :D
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CH Exclusive: Julien Pirou Q&A

Postby CloudRiderX » Apr 13 2011, 23:08

@XEL II
If by *facepalm* you mean "I have no legitimate response to your point, and therefore concede," you are correct.
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Postby Ryder » Apr 14 2011, 0:30

Come Marzhin, you dont really believe that a town in Clouds was Orientally themed surely?

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Postby XEL II » Apr 14 2011, 5:54

>@XEL II
If by *facepalm* you mean "I have no legitimate response to your point, and therefore concede," you are correct.@XEL II
If by *facepalm* you mean "I have no legitimate response to your point, and therefore concede," you are correct.<

Oh, what a clever retort, wiseass. No, it actually meant "Your statement is stupid to the point that I couldn't find words to properly decribe how much". And that's totally correct, because saying "Forge doesn't fit" practically means ignoring the SF background of Might and Magic. Which is plain dumb.

>You know I played MM4 and I don’t remember that town.<

I think Marzhin was referring to Rivercity, one of five main towns of Cloudside of XEEN. It had Yang Knights. But still, in MM3, for instance, there are really more Asian themes than MM4. However, Ninja player character class was present in MM 2-5.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark


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