Frag Doll Video Interview

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Frag Doll Video Interview

Postby vicheron » Oct 12 2010, 12:40

1. Whole plot was thought up only later, so initially they just poisoned king and attacked, also resurrected kings that backfired.
2. For homm5 necromancers plan wasn't any less sophisticated(though neither are pinnacle of strategic genius to say least), they just seized opportunity when it arouse, I would even say that he reached his goal with almost no resources, and with completely decimated necromancer infrastructure. Tricking mentally handicapped person may not be ethical, but at least he saw and used opportunity in right time.

Except the Necromancers didn't attack after they poisoned King Gryphonheart. They let Nighon and Eofol invade Erathia while they waited and secretly built up their army. The majority of Erathia's missions are fighting Nighon and Eofol. The Necromancers didn't even invade until Erathia had committed most of their resources to the war against Nighon and Eofol. The Necromancer campaign was all about preparing for an invasion. In fact, Erathia doesn't even fight the Necromancers until the last campaign, which takes place after Nighon and Eofol were defeated. As for resurrecting King Gryphonheart, it may have been a miscalculation but at least the plan made sense, unlike Nicolai's resurrection.

Then there's the final Shadow of Death campaign, which showed that Sandro had planned the war. He knew that assassinating King Gryphonheart would open an opportunity for the Necromancers to gain more power so he formed a secret alliance with Nighon and Eofol. He helped the Warlocks build the tunnels under Erathia, which allowed them to move troops in and quickly overrun the defenders. The Necromancers then betrayed Nighon and Eofol once the invasion began and let them fight the war by themselves while Deyja stayed out of the conflict and used the opportunity to secretly build up their army.

The Necromancers in Heroes 5 only managed to seize power because everyone else was incredibly incompetent. No one questioned Isabel's insane alliance with Markal. The Wizards' inability to defend against Markal was never explained. The Necromancers essentially had no power when they began their invasion of the Silver Cities but the Wizards didn't do anything to halt Markal's advances. Then there's the resurrection of Nicolai and his subsequent invasion of the elves, which made no sense at all. Markal had no reason to resurrect Nicolai since Isabel was already powerless and the Necromancers basically controlled the Griffin Empire. Nicolai's invasion of the elves made no sense, all it did was earn them a powerful enemy.

In fact, how the Necromancers in Heroes 5 were able to become so powerful made no sense. They were almost extinct at the beginning of the game but then somehow became powerful enough to challenge entire nations within a few months time. It was obvious to people that Markal was a Necromancer and he went around openly raising the dead and he faced no opposition except from Godric. Not to mention the fact that Markal attacked the Wizards right after he formed the alliance with Isabel so the Necromancers would have still been weak. Markal didn't even bother with any preparation. The Necromancers should have been squashed early on by one of the Griffin Empire's dukes or by the Wizards.

Deyja on the other hand was an entire kingdom ruled by Necromancers so they actually had the resources to build an army. They were also smart enough to stay out of Nighon and Eofol's invasion of Erathia, letting them expend their resources, while they took advantage of the situation to build up their forces in secret. They only invaded until after they had had a capable general and raised a powerful army instead of going in unprepared like Markal.

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Postby Tress » Oct 12 2010, 13:12

Well here I am right here and Elvin's just up there, and there's at least five others registered at CH; absolutely nothing's stopping you from throwing your ideas at us smile

Gotta remember who;s responsible in case game doesn't turn out any good. :P

They let Nighon and Eofol invade Erathia ...


Whole SOD stuff- alliance with Kreegans/Nighon is added only later, not to mention its quite inconsistent with ROE HOMM3. Initially there is only Haart who abstractly poisons king.

The Necromancers in Heroes 5 only managed to seize power because everyone else was incredibly incompetent

Actually because only one person was incompetent/ mentally challenged.

No one questioned Isabel's insane alliance with Markal
Godrick did like every time he appeared on screen but queen told him to STFU, also soldiers who werent happy with Necromancers deserted to Godric. Raelag suggested to cut her plan short, but she dissed him as well. Since queen is absolute power unless you openly rebel then there wasn't much anyone could do. Those who disagreed with her fled to elves.
The Wizards' inability to defend against Markal was never explained
Dislike that part as well but can consider its 2 armies against one, and they didn't expected it. Take by surprise and so on.

The Necromancers essentially had no power when they began their invasion of the Silver Cities.../They were almost extinct at the beginning of the game but then somehow became powerful enough to challenge entire nations within a few months time
The whole necromancer faction lives in shadow of empire so there is no way to tell how much power they can get once they start to move. They even have whole duchies loyal to necromancer cause and innumerable caches of soldiers. Fact that they don't have official cities doesn't make them any less powerful. Also Markal before Nicolais mother died was in official position in Empire until Godric booted him, so actually Isabel just rehired him.
Markal had no reason to resurrect Nicolai
He got powerful commander under his control so much like in homm3 was planed(can talk about reusing of plot elements and stuff here though), but it went bit better for Markel than for Fineas.

unprepared like Markal.
Those beings are quite immortal, I guess he is prepared for years waiting for moment to act. Isabell just gave him everything he needs.

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 12 2010, 19:12

tress wrote:Gotta remember who;s responsible in case game doesn't turn out any good. :P


Lynch me at will if it does, but I hope that - when it's finished - you won't be able to say we didn't at least represent and promote your wishes (and if you think I'm not representing your wishes specifically, feel free to PM me any posts you have and I'll relay them, unabridged) :)

Jeff wrote:I realize to get some of the power of the H-V editor some ease of use may be lost, but if line by line programming is going to be necessary then many of us old (yes i said old) heads will be lost. This would be too bad as I am more into creation than playing now a days. Just don't come back after like Fabrice and say he never realized people were unhappy with it.


Well obviously "VIP" fans are not actually developing it, in case there is a misconception here (we haven't even used it yet), but the lua scripting system from H5 was replaced by a trigger editor ala Warcraft III so apparently there will no longer be any need to learn any type of coding language to create a compelling map.

ThunderTitan wrote:I was thinking more along the lines of someone browsing the thread for ideas, summarizing them and presenting them to the devs themselves in the more cosy vip forum...


Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, will continue doing so ;)

tress wrote:Whole SOD stuff- alliance with Kreegans/Nighon is added only later, not to mention its quite inconsistent with ROE HOMM3. Initially there is only Haart who abstractly poisons king.


Inconsistent nope, there was H3 prerelease stuff detailing the whole alliance and mentioning ties to the Cult of Baa, and it's also said at least twice in AB that the three nations were in cahoots (although it seems Sandro's involvement wasn't necessarily planned, yet how convenient that he was in a prison in Harvest). Also RoE itself states Haart was working for Vilmar and the Necromantic Order; they apparently counted on undead Gryphonheart remaining a subjugated general or at worst a powerless rebel Lich. It's safe to assume they didn't count on him seizing the throne and willingly attacking his own former homeland just to kill Haart for vengeance.

Markal isn't immortal, by the way.

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Postby jeff » Oct 13 2010, 0:28

Corlagon wrote: Well obviously "VIP" fans are not actually developing it, in case there is a misconception here (we haven't even used it yet


I realize that just so the concerns of the H-V editor and its campaign limitations are made known. I do hope they plan on a campaign editor.
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Frag Doll Video Interview

Postby vicheron » Oct 13 2010, 3:14

"Whole SOD stuff- alliance with Kreegans/Nighon is added only later, not to mention its quite inconsistent with ROE HOMM3. Initially there is only Haart who abstractly poisons king."

How was it inconsistent with ROE? How do you think Nighon and Eofol were able to invade Erathia right after King Gryponheart was assassinated? How were Nighon and Eofol able to form their alliance and mobilize their armies so quickly? How did the Warlocks pick the perfect time to dig their tunnels under Erathia? Why did Deyja stay out of the war?

"Godrick did like every time he appeared on screen but queen told him to STFU, also soldiers who werent happy with Necromancers deserted to Godric. Raelag suggested to cut her plan short, but she dissed him as well. Since queen is absolute power unless you openly rebel then there wasn't much anyone could do. Those who disagreed with her fled to elves."

Godric was an idiot. Markal was destroying the Griffin Empire and all he did was complain. He didn't do anything until the last Necromancer mission. Also, Isabel didn't have absolute power. The Griffin Empire was in a civil war. Markal earns Isabel's trust by defeating a rebel duke. Clearly people already had a problem with Isabel before she let the Necromancers take over.

"Dislike that part as well but can consider its 2 armies against one, and they didn't expected it. Take by surprise and so on."

The Griffin Empire were fighting a civil war and being invaded by the demons, and the Necromancers were practically extinct. The Silver Cities weren't involved in any conflicts. The Necromancers should have gotten their butts kicked.

" The whole necromancer faction lives in shadow of empire so there is no way to tell how much power they can get once they start to move. They even have whole duchies loyal to necromancer cause and innumerable caches of soldiers. Fact that they don't have official cities doesn't make them any less powerful. Also Markal before Nicolais mother died was in official position in Empire until Godric booted him, so actually Isabel just rehired him."

Funny how none of those loyal duchies helped Markal and the Necromancers.

"He got powerful commander under his control so much like in homm3 was planed(can talk about reusing of plot elements and stuff here though), but it went bit better for Markel than for Fineas.

unprepared like Markal. Those beings are quite immortal, I guess he is prepared for years waiting for moment to act. Isabell just gave him everything he needs."

The Necromancers of Deyja brought back King Gryphonheart because he would be the perfect general to lead the invasion against Erathia. Markal already controlled the Griffin Empire. He didn't need Nicolai to rule the Griffin Empire and Nicolai wasn't an elf expert or anything like that so there was no reason for him to lead an invasion of Irollan.

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Postby Tress » Oct 13 2010, 7:54

Lynch me at will if it does, but I hope that - when it's finished - you won't be able to say we didn't at least represent
Problem is that we cant already. If we check on homm5 or even 4 that were received much less positively than homm 3, then there isnt anything wrong with both games on first glance, and they both had pretty much features people asked for(both FOW and heroes on field were suggested many times before homm 4) in forums. Even if BH takes into accounts suggestions we make, even if we consider they take only best ones they still can screw up game, with heavy gameplay, tedious adventuring and so on, even if they contain features we want. There isnt single feature that would make homm 5 much better or something we could take away to make it better, many are arguable though, but so is many things in homm 3.

Markal isn't immortal, by the way.

Was more meant as in necromancers faction in general. Yes Markel seems exception to case, but I guess there is always some mortals in every generation that is loyal or leading necromancers that could interact with empire on somewhat good terms.
How was it inconsistent with ROE?

Replay campaign where Sandro rises to power and read texts. There is many thins that are dragged together at best.

Godric was an idiot. Markal was destroying the Griffin Empire and all he did was complain. He didn't do anything until the last Necromancer mission.

Despite his mental capacity, he was only one that was close to queen and could possibly influence her. Obviously it did not worked. Also he was under oath , so it is much already that he openly rebelled at all.
The Silver Cities weren't involved in any conflicts.

1. They were arrogant bunch. 2. Their military power is never stated. Considering their country is only handful of cities compared to elves or Empire, it might not be that much in times of peace.They never expected that Empire will openly attack them. They are not dwarves who keep huge garrisons at all times, it is not their mentality.

Funny how none of those loyal duchies helped Markal and the Necromancers.

Even if it is not openly stated there is no reason to assume otherwise. That doesnt have to happen openly also. Just because Markel was in charge some of loyal duchies could offer increased support and cease to passively resist queen's rule just as coincidence thus strengthen Isables army.
He didn't need Nicolai to rule the Griffin Empire
Even if he is super villain, he only have two arms. He cant lead all armies by himself and even if he could, someone would have to rule Empire, he cant put zombie #319 in charge of Empire. Besides "alive" kings somewhat legalizes his rule, considering it was queens order to ressurect. No single character can lead all by himself.

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Postby Elvin » Oct 13 2010, 10:17

It was his original promise and it worked pretty well. He gained a general and the gueen was so shocked that she was unfit to rule. Earlier he had to manipulate, from that point he could rule directly.
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Postby Corlagon » Oct 13 2010, 21:20

tress wrote:even if we consider they take only best ones they still can screw up game, with heavy gameplay, tedious adventuring and so on, even if they contain features we want.


Of course, but that's pretty much irrelevant to the topic of representing fan wishes since it's a matter of producer/developer competence, which is not something any fansite can control (unless the CH staff happen to double as potential billionaire investors) ;)

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Frag Doll Video Interview

Postby vicheron » Oct 14 2010, 2:21

"Replay campaign where Sandro rises to power and read texts. There is many thins that are dragged together at best."

Like what? Sandro's involvement may have been added in later but everything that happened in ROE suggest that Deyja, Nighon and Eofol planned the war together.

"Despite his mental capacity, he was only one that was close to queen and could possibly influence her. Obviously it did not worked. Also he was under oath , so it is much already that he openly rebelled at all."

What about the rest of the Griffin Empire? One duke already revolted before Markal came along. How come the other dukes stayed silent while Isabel let the Necromancers take over their lands? Heck, even the demon controlled dukes should have opposed Isabel since it was mentioned that the Necromancers were able to beat back the demon invasion. I should also mention that Markal was an idiot for not killing Godric as soon as he got the chance.

"1. They were arrogant bunch. 2. Their military power is never stated. Considering their country is only handful of cities compared to elves or Empire, it might not be that much in times of peace.They never expected that Empire will openly attack them. They are not dwarves who keep huge garrisons at all times, it is not their mentality."

1. Just because they were arrogant doesn't mean they should have been stupid.
2. If the Wizards weren't powerful then how was Zehir able to liberate the Griffin Empire from the Necromancers, invade Sheogh with the other heroes, and then later in TotE invade the Griffin Empire to release Isabel from Biara's control?

"Even if it is not openly stated there is no reason to assume otherwise. That doesnt have to happen openly also. Just because Markel was in charge some of loyal duchies could offer increased support and cease to passively resist queen's rule just as coincidence thus strengthen Isables army."

But there's no reason to assume that they helped so why should we assume they helped? In fact, there was no evidence of any interaction between the Necromancers and the duchies.

"Even if he is super villain, he only have two arms. He cant lead all armies by himself and even if he could, someone would have to rule Empire, he cant put zombie #319 in charge of Empire. Besides "alive" kings somewhat legalizes his rule, considering it was queens order to ressurect. No single character can lead all by himself."

There were other Necromancers, Markal wasn't the only one. Also, Nicolai wasn't put in charge of the Griffin Empire, he was sent to invade the elves for no reason.

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Re: Frag Doll Video Interview

Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 14 2010, 13:38

vicheron wrote:""Like what? Sandro's involvement may have been added in later but everything that happened in ROE suggest that Deyja, Nighon and Eofol planned the war together. "



Actually the Sandro bit came from the fact that in one map in RoE you find him in a jailhouse...
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Postby Tress » Oct 14 2010, 14:09

Actually the Sandro bit came from the fact that in one map in RoE you find him in a jailhouse...
Without doubt so, but I will never believe that they placed him intentionally there with whole back story, rather than just simply as a powerful hero to eventually bolster army.
There were other Necromancers, Markal wasn't the only one. Also, Nicolai wasn't put in charge of the Griffin Empire, he was sent to invade the elves for no reason.


Markel was still human and with connections inside Empire, he was actually in official position there before, so people can accept him. With correctly placed statements he can position himself as unjustly exiled because they disliked his face(Griffin's empire's first known politically oppressed politician - Markel). They cant accept some pale guy with spider symbol on his forehead like most necromancers are, as their ruler though. Besides he wanted to rule himself not to rampage across Irolan, so why not send Nicolai instead.
But there's no reason to assume that they helped so why should we assume they helped? In fact, there was no evidence of any interaction between the Necromancers and the duchies.


Despite anything he had access to all resources queen had, and even if there was some civil war with some of duchies, then majority was still loyal to her. They cant really rebel overnight just because queen have new adviser. Thats gradual process.
I should also mention that Markal was an idiot for not killing Godric as soon as he got the chance.
He actually wanted, but Isabell opposed him. And even though she was in depressed state he could not go directly against her, since formally he was only adviser. She has final say in those matters, even for all his influence.

Isabel let the Necromancers take over their lands?
As I said majority of power was in Markel/Griffin hands so rebel duchies would have vague chance to stand against them so they fled to elves, If you would checj m1 of Findans campaign, then there you can see them seeking refuge in elven lands.
Just because they were arrogant doesn't mean they should have been stupid.
They are mages not warrirors. Can assume they dont keep strong army when there is no war they are involved in, but they can quickly raise golems and other stuff once it begins. That's full griffin Empire(that is way larger than silver cities) + markels troops against unprepared mages.
About Zehir retaking - well can assume Markel lost much of interest in silver cities once he killed his arch enemy and did no expected that mages will poses any more threat, besides his forces were streched thin as a result that is actually mentioned in mage campaign.

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Frag Doll Video Interview

Postby astral76minor » Oct 16 2010, 22:28

At least some of the H6 Wishlist ideas were added to the game from the CH forum. A vote including the 5 best ideas/wishes should be considered on CH. This is more than reasonable for the VIP forum. These wishes were stated way back in 2006-8.... Many of which had to do with H5 and the endless comments about the ToE patches that never came out (the dream patches for the fan network). Pitch forks are ready! And yes, they should release a 30-day trial of the full version so we can study this creation and give more comments, like usual.... For instance,

1. The map editor should be similar to H3, H4 with an online campaign feature as well as single player campaigns.

2. The AI should be way more sophisticated and not need all those handicaps (alot of people made maps and had to solely base them on AI competence which really made the game old, fast!)

3. Storyline should be more real, good plot, easy to read text, maybe some cinema with the voices in sync (perhaps some more graphic drama for the adults, not the teenagers).

4. Caravans, skill system, spells, castle upgrades, etc need to reflect some of the older heroes games with the new age ideas included in the wishlist(s).

5. Options screen for display should have major adjustments for people with older computers or just make it run better on a Core 2 Duo (not overclocked).

Ultra Wish - Make H6 play exactly like Kings Bounty: AP with all the above. It will play like Heroes but have the KB interface with an online feature.

One can go into more detail about the above (these vague ideas) by simply looking at the Wishlist threads from many of the people on Celestial Heavens.
Edited on Sat, Oct 16 2010, 20:06 by astral76minor

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 26 2010, 9:35

tress wrote:
Actually the Sandro bit came from the fact that in one map in RoE you find him in a jailhouse...
Without doubt so, but I will never believe that they placed him intentionally there with whole back story, rather than just simply as a powerful hero to eventually bolster army.


Either way, he's there.

They might even have added him there with the idea that they'll do something with him at a later date.

Plus, in the end the plan was simply poisoning Griphonheart and taking advantage of the situation created even with SoD.
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