Might and Magic Timeline (My Version)

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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Unread postby Corlagon » 09 Nov 2008, 15:14

not adding anything useful to or explaining anything in the M&M universe.
Even if they don't delve into the Ancient-Kreegan story (the Kreegans are involved by the looks of things, anyway), they do maintain an unusual amount of consistency. I mean, look at the Elemental Lords. I don't think the author pulled the stories about their creation and destruction of the planets out of nowhere. If he wasn't aware of JVC's prior Elemental Lord stories in MM2/3/8, then we have a pretty amazing coincidence.

And as for Gods being present, so what - even Corak and Sheltem mention Gods. There's also a Netherworld mentioned numerous times in MM6, so it's no alien concept to the series. For all we know, the author was just taking players there in HC: CotU.
It is also possible that HoMM1 is non-canon or not related to Enroth.
No, I don't think so. Aside from a hundred unofficial sources stating that it took place 25 years after Heroes I (I'm pretty sure they received this info from NWC), we also have Lord Kilburn's shield in MM6 which is a clear reference to Castle White Wolf from MM1.

Not forgetting the blurbs on 3DO's old website, as well:

Having crushed his enemies, consolidated his power base and eliminated dissent at the end of Heroes of Might and Magic, Lord Ironfist settled down to rule the land of Enroth. After 25 years of peace, the land is again thrust into turmoil. Lord Ironfist is dead and the ensuing struggle for power between his sons, Archibald and Roland, has led to a state of civil war.

And "the passing of the old king, Lord Ironfist" - surely they wouldn't mention the protagonist of the previous game just like that if it were a different person.

There are also Ironfists in MM8 who seem unrelated to Morglin's dynasty.
There no references to it in M&M6 and later products
Well, there's Old King Ironfist from Heroes III: AB, Yog's flashbacks of having been in Enroth from SoD, the Frozen Highlands and Ironfist Keep making reappearances in MM6, the First War of Enrothian Succession mentioned in MM8 (though the author of this blurb apparently didn't know Lord Ironfist's first name, which wasn't overtly given), Sandro's history as a Warlock, and IIRC a few subtle references in Legends of Might and Magic.

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Unread postby XEL II » 09 Nov 2008, 16:35

Corlagon wrote:
not adding anything useful to or explaining anything in the M&M universe.
Even if they don't delve into the Ancient-Kreegan story (the Kreegans are involved by the looks of things, anyway), they do maintain an unusual amount of consistency. I mean, look at the Elemental Lords. I don't think the author pulled the stories about their creation and destruction of the planets out of nowhere. If he wasn't aware of JVC's prior Elemental Lord stories in MM2/3/8, then we have a pretty amazing coincidence.
I told not about Ancient-Kreegan story, but the story as a whole.

In HC nothing is said about EL creating planets. Just that "when the world was created, the gods forced ELs into a truce". And if Terry Ray was aware, why he didn't mention EL's names, then?

BTW, the only occasion of EL creating the planet (not creating land in the newly-crafted worldship, not Ancient machines residing in the Elemental Planes) was they uniting their powers to create Enroth. Concept of them doing numerous battles in the Void and thus creating planets (I have seen it somewhere) is nearly unsupported, except the statement about EL creating Erntoh, which doesn't mean that they created other planets.

I blame not Gods being present (btw, Corak and Sheltem mentioning the Gods means nothing, in LotA continuity, for instance, Gods of M&M9 and HC are Ancients' servants, so the Guardians can't have a religious sentiment about them), but the fact that these Gods are unexplained.

"Netherworld" is the Kreegan as some in M&M6 describe them. It was mentioned that the Celestial Order "has struck an alliance with the forces of the Netherworld". It isn't the Underworld form CotU.
Corlagon wrote:
It is also possible that HoMM1 is non-canon or not related to Enroth.
No, I don't think so. Aside from a hundred unofficial sources stating that it took place 25 years after Heroes I (I'm pretty sure they received this info from NWC), we also have Lord Kilburn's shield in MM6 which is a clear reference to Castle White Wolf from MM1.

Not forgetting the blurbs on 3DO's old website, as well:

Having crushed his enemies, consolidated his power base and eliminated dissent at the end of Heroes of Might and Magic, Lord Ironfist settled down to rule the land of Enroth. After 25 years of peace, the land is again thrust into turmoil. Lord Ironfist is dead and the ensuing struggle for power between his sons, Archibald and Roland, has led to a state of civil war.

And "the passing of the old king, Lord Ironfist" - surely they wouldn't mention the protagonist of the previous game just like that if it were a different person.

There are also Ironfists in MM8 who seem unrelated to Morglin's dynasty.
There no references to it in M&M6 and later products
Well, there's Old King Ironfist from Heroes III: AB, Yog's flashbacks of having been in Enroth from SoD, the Frozen Highlands and Ironfist Keep making reappearances in MM6, the First War of Enrothian Succession mentioned in MM8 (though the author of this blurb apparently didn't know Lord Ironfist's first name, which wasn't overtly given), Sandro's history as a Warlock, and IIRC a few subtle references in Legends of Might and Magic.
Well, I didn't claim HoMM1 to be non-canon, just said that "maybe it's possible" ;)
Corlagon wrote:There are also Ironfists in MM8 who seem unrelated to Morglin's dynasty.
Interesting. What are their names (I could miss them)?
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 09 Nov 2008, 17:06

I told not about Ancient-Kreegan story, but the story as a whole.
Well, in the story as a whole, they explain the history of Antagarich, the reasons for each kingdom's existence, a battle with the Elemental Lords, a fight on another planet against the {-99% likely-} Kreegans and the events leading up to the planet's destruction which go on to set up Heroes IV and MMIX.

So how can you say they don't explain or explore anything in the universe or storyline?
In HC nothing is said about EL creating planets. Just that "when the world was created, the gods forced ELs into a truce".
Not so. In a late-game map there's this event:

"I've come to teach you, and any other members of your army, how to summon Earth Elementals. Just have your Heroes return here - I'll ask no reward except to use what I have taught you to defeat the Lord of Earth," the Magma Elemental says.

"Why do you do this?" you ask.

"Because even some of my kind do not want to destroy that which we helped create!"

And if Terry Ray was aware, why he didn't mention EL's names, then?
I'm hardly in a position to answer that, but perhaps they weren't mentioned in JVC's notes, or whatever he used as a reference. Either that, or he reasoned that giving their names wouldn't have affected the storyline for better or worse, so didn't bother.

Nicolas and Eldrich aren't "named" either, but the author seems to have been fairly certain who they were (Catherine's father etc).
"Netherworld" is the Kreegan as some in M&M6 describe them. It was mentioned that the Celestial Order "has struck an alliance with the forces of the Netherworld". It isn't the Underworld form CotU.
I was referring to these:

"A powerful weapon said to have been delivered up from the Netherworld in response to the wish of a prolific mass murderer. The weapon inflicts terrible wounds with its razor sharp edge and drips acid constantly."

"Don't laugh--while silly--even ridiculous--in appearance, many sorcerers spend quite a bit of time enchanting hats like this with powerful magics. The conical shape and 'eyes' in the front of the hat are peculiarly attractive to creatures of the spirit world, and that property makes the hat easier to enchant."


Point is, there was a spirit world / netherworld / underworld / land of the dead in the lore before the Chronicles came along.
btw, Corak and Sheltem mentioning them means nothing
Or does it...? :D
Interesting. What are their names (I could miss them)?
I believe a Sethine Ironfist was somewhere in Quixote's camp (named Seth Ironfist in some places, the writers seem to have been a bit confused). There might have been another Ironfist in MM7, but I'll need to remake my reference files.

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Unread postby XEL II » 09 Nov 2008, 17:06

Corlagon wrote:But that puts the Lincoln's fall in the same year as MM7 - directly contradicting Resurrectra - and also actually places the Terrans there after MM7 begins (up to about six months later, in fact, depending on whether you meant the end of MM6 or the beginning)
The Terrans arrived when Archibald was the Kind of Deyja. He becane the King in August 1167 (when RoE ended). So they arrived in 1167. "Few years" doesn't necessarily mean three years, so it's quite fitting. Especially if we put Resurrectra's speech in the early 1169 (considering Roland being held captive for nearly seven years).
Corlagon wrote:Well, in the story as a whole, they explain the history of Antagarich, the reasons for each kingdom's existence, a battle with the Elemental Lords, a fight on another planet against the {-99% likely-} Kreegans and the events leading up to the planet's destruction which go on to set up Heroes IV and MMIX.
But nothing of this was necessary or useful un any way. It was obsolete and had some confusing moments. And although I think Axeoth was a decent setting, the Reckoning idea was lame and unnecessary.

"Said to have come from the Netherworld" doesn't imply it was actually from the Netherworld in any way.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 09 Nov 2008, 17:21

But nothing of this was necessary or useful un any way. It was obsolete and had some confusing moments.
How do you mean? A good story is a good story, it exists for its own sake, so what does it matter if it's connected to the "bigger picture" or not? There's a million spinoff stories out there which are only loosely connected to their original storylines and don't add anything major to the grander premise (look at Star Wars, LotR, Warcraft, anything you can think of), but that doesn't instantly make them pointless and obsolete.

Now if Tarnum hadn't been in Heroes IV I'd probably be ready to agree with you, but even so, what's the problem as long as they contradict nothing?
"Said to have come from the Netherworld" doesn't imply it was actually from the Netherworld in any way.
Alright, relax, I have a firm understanding of basic semantics too :P

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Unread postby XEL II » 09 Nov 2008, 19:55

Corlagon wrote:How do you mean? A good story is a good story, it exists for its own sake, so what does it matter if it's connected to the "bigger picture" or not? There's a million spinoff stories out there which are only loosely connected to their original storylines and don't add anything major to the grander premise (look at Star Wars, LotR, Warcraft, anything you can think of), but that doesn't instantly make them pointless and obsolete.
Yet there are confusing and inaccurate moments in HC (unlike most of the spinoffs in, to say, Star Wars, WarCraft, Starcraft), I don't think anyone will argue with that. HC had a good story in terms of literature writing and character development.
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Unread postby Corlagon » 09 Nov 2008, 20:07

Confusing and inaccurate parts, of course... but not necessarily mistakes. ;)

By the by, not to kick up an old debate yet again, but if you insist on bringing it back up, I point out that you have zero basis for this:
The Terrans arrived when Archibald was the Kind of Deyja.
...since the Terrans only left the Lincoln at that time.
"Few years" doesn't necessarily mean three years, so it's quite fitting.
IYO. But it's unmistakeably more than one year.

However, were I on your side of the argument, I'd inform, uh... Corlagon... that Roland was captured in September 1162 and got released six-and-a-bit years later, so his rescue could have quite easily spilled over into 1169. :devious:

But just to ask, why make all these old points now? They don't matter anymore... Couldn't you have made them when we were having the debates... or are you looking to start another one :D

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Unread postby XEL II » 10 Nov 2008, 12:41

Corlagon wrote:...since the Terrans only left the Lincoln at that time.
After the Kreegan defeat on the Path of Darkness in M&M7, Kastore says they locked Lincoln upon the arrival on Enroth.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 10 Nov 2008, 17:20

Could you transcribe that? I have lost my MM7 files. I sort of remember it, but I'm pretty sure he was vague about it (something like "after we hid our vehicle in the sea, we activated the security system). To abuse semantics, I can point out that "after" could be any point in time between 1165 and 68.

Missed this:
Concept of them doing numerous battles in the Void and thus creating planets (I have seen it somewhere) is nearly unsupported, except the statement about EL creating Erntoh, which doesn't mean that they created other planets.
I don't know about the battles in the Void statement - probably related to MM2 - but don't forget: Elemental Manipulation. It's the process through which the Ancients create their worlds. MM8 shows you how they go about destroying worlds by Manipulation of the Elements (the personifications of the Elements, that is). And with all the outright statements that the Elemental (Lords) created the world of Enroth, the implication is that, being the godlike manifests that they are, they must be going around creating other planets as well.

If you are taking these quotes from TST (I don't know if you are), remember that I incorporate LotA's and MMT's lore too.

But anyway, there's no evidence of any other methods of worldcraft in the series, aside from Ardon having been a "spinning ball of magma" or some such at one point (and whaddaya know, Enroth's quite the same type of spinning magma ball as of Heroes IV).

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Unread postby XEL II » 10 Nov 2008, 19:17

Corlagon wrote:Could you transcribe that? I have lost my MM7 files. I sort of remember it, but I'm pretty sure he was vague about it (something like "after we hid our vehicle in the sea, we activated the security system). To abuse semantics, I can point out that "after" could be any point in time between 1165 and 68.
I clearly remember Kastore saying something like "when we arrived to you world, we locked the ship and activated the security systems".
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 10 Nov 2008, 19:43

So there is no basis for the idea that they left the ship directly after landing. Great. :P

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Unread postby XEL II » 11 Nov 2008, 06:37

"When we arrived to your world" is pretty much "right after" or "not long after", if you ask me. I don't think they wouldn't notice being in stasis or something for a couple of years. Not to mention that the stasis idea would be painfully convoulted and have a very unreliable and dubious canonical support

I also consider LotA canon, but not MMT :tongue: LotA only gives more in-depth insight on the Forces of Dome, who are Ancient AI living i nthe Wire and used by the Ancients to quell any cataclysms connected with the Elemental Planes on the planets, which are being colonized and VARNs.

And seeing how it is reffered to in M&M3 outro, the Elemental Manipulation is pretty much this:

The Ancients draw their power from the heat and light of stars to create intricated mechanism of society, then send these civilizations to cultivate developing worlds."

(Shikbath Zera database)

But of course, the Elemental Manipulation can tap into and disturb the Elemental Planes, as told in the legend from M&M3 manual. LotA uses this as basis and develops more insight on the Forces' of Dome precise origin. And as seen in M&M2-3, WoX and M&M8, Ancients are also capable of having a huge influence over the Elemental Planes directly (Sleeper machines being placed there, creation of land withing CRON, Escaton's Crystal).

BTW, Escaton didn't use the Convocation of the Cataclysm all the time to cleanse the Kreegan-infested worlds. He clearly says this in his blurbs in M&M8 and Elemental Lords were like they forst meet Escaton.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 11 Nov 2008, 16:27

Looks as though "pretty much" seems to be just another way of saying "my humble interpretation is..."

But disregarding that, your quote hasn't got anything to do with Elemental Manipulation, which isn't mentioned until the next paragraph of that "file". With some more help from good old semantics, we might like to read over it again, noting that it only explains where the Ancients draw their power from and how they go about creating "intricated mechanism(s) of society" (not planets!), and even refers to separate developing worlds (if this is the process for creating planets, where did these other ones come from?). I don't see any suggestion of a link. Also, the stars don't have anything to do with the elementals or the elements (aside from fire?).

Plus, as I constantly suggest, look at the History of Cron (and none of the "land within Cron" stuff please, since that too is a dubious interpretation and has been argued about more than enough :P). There's two worlds created by / through the Elemental Lords, no suggestion that there are other methods of worldcraft aside from the XEEN project, the point that the most effective way to destroy a planet involves the Elemental Lords, a reference or two in Gravel's books, and implications that Terra was also created by the Lords (since they attacked Terra long after its creation, just like they attacked Colony). So, even if they had nothing to do with LotA, you can probably see where the assumptions in those earlier quotes are coming from.

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Unread postby XEL II » 12 Nov 2008, 13:43

History of CRON tells about creation of the land of CRON, which is stated there outright.

Elemental Manipulation was implied to have been used to create ecological and social microcosm, which was to transported to Terra. According to the same game, the energy of the stars is used to create mechanism of society, which are send to colonize developing worlds. Dreadfully obvious similarity.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 12 Nov 2008, 15:26

History of CRON tells about creation of the land of CRON, which is stated there outright.
You're quite right it is.

"They failed miserably and the Emperors of Earth assumed command of what would become CRON."

"For almost one hundred years all of the elementals, Water, Air, Fire, and Earth, struggled to perfect the landmass. What they tame up with is what we know as the physical land of CRON."


Deja vu - "what would become CRON" means that CRON didn't exist until the "land" was created. I really wonder, what do you presume was there before the land came along?

Everyone who's played MM5 knows that nacelles are floating continent-like worlds which are sometimes used as artificial landmasses on Terra etc, they're made of nothing but land...
Elemental Manipulation was implied to have been used to create ecological and social microcosm
An intricated mechanism of society is described as a civilisation in the same sentence. But civilisations and planets are very different things. The suns are described as a source of the Ancients' power. No similarities. No implications.

You must think Mechanism of society = Nacelle. That's one way to look at it, but there's many other more apt ways as well.
Dreadfully obvious similarity.
You could ask around and see if anybody agrees.

As with the Web of Worlds argument, I'm afraid it seems you are interpreting again, and misinterpreting from the looks of it - which is very ironic since you've been telling whoever wrote the first set of quotes to stay away from making such interpretations... :P

Anyway, I don't think it's fair that we should transform every lore-related thread into a battleground...

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Unread postby XEL II » 12 Nov 2008, 18:46

Corlagon wrote:Everyone who's played MM5 knows that nacelles are floating continent-like worlds which are sometimes used as artificial landmasses on Terra etc, they're made of nothing but land...
To abuse semantics, "nacelle" means spaceship or a part of the spaceship. And we know very well that the exterior of VARNs is the spaceship. We also know very well that CRON is a vehicle, which carries the VARNs.

XEEN was a floating landmass because it was a "beta" of the spherical planet, i.e. a flat world with two sides. IT was part of its experiment The world "Nacelle" in the abbreviations doesn't necessarily mean that CRON looks the same on exterior as XEEN. BTW, there is no space shown on the map of CRON, unlike the maps of XEEN (the only example is Plane of Earth, but this Plane is shown as a round planet, thus surrounded by stars).
Corlagon wrote:An intricated mechanism of society is described as a civilisation in the same sentence. But civilisations and planets are very different things. The suns are described as a source of the Ancients' power. No similarities. No implications.

You must think Mechanism of society = Nacelle. That's one way to look at it, but there's many other more apt ways as well.
You claimed the Elemental Manipulation is a method of creating worlds. But is was referred to only as a method of creating social microcosm.

Social microcosm is a society with its environment and society is certainly a mechanism of society. "Ecological" suggest it to be VARNs (which is indeed the case, since the Isles were formed by four VARNs). And VARNs are seedships transporting colonists' civilization. You can always try common sense ;)
Corlagon wrote:You could ask around and see if anybody agrees.
OK, Demilich agrees. :tongue: And I don't think that you disagree = everybody disagrees :hoo:
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 12 Nov 2008, 20:33

The world "Nacelle" in the abbreviations doesn't necessarily mean that CRON looks the same on exterior as XEEN.
And the word "planet" doesn't necessarily make Axeoth round either :lolu:
You claimed the Elemental Manipulation is a method of creating worlds.
Of course I did, since I support LotA.

Wiki: Civilisation
Wiki: Microcosm

MM3 says the Ancients use the stars to create civilisations.
It then says they use the elements to create microcosms.
OK, Demilich agrees.
Well, forgive me for saying so but... no great surprise there :P
And I don't think that you disagree = everybody disagrees
There is no "everybody"... we are the only ones who care B-)

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Unread postby XEL II » 13 Nov 2008, 14:25

Corlagon wrote:And the word "planet" doesn't necessarily make Axeoth round either :lolu:
Wrong analogy. Nacelles can be different, they are spacecraft and/or parts of the spaceships
Corlagon wrote:Of course I did, since I support LotA.
Where does the LotA lore say this? Could you please quote or something?
Corlagon wrote:MM3 says the Ancients use the stars to create civilisations.
It then says they use the elements to create microcosms.
"Social" in combination microcosm implies the society is present there. "Ecological" certainly indicates the ecosystem. Seedship (not Nacelle in general, we here are talking about the seedships used to colonize the worlds) is pretty much the social microcosm, thus society is one of the main parts of it.

And M&M3 doesn't state that society is apart from social microcosm (in fact, the society is what makes the microcosm "social"). Besides, both process are called Grand/Great Experiment in M&M3.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Unread postby Corlagon » 13 Nov 2008, 16:27

"Social" in combination microcosm implies the society is present there. "Ecological" certainly indicates the ecosystem. Seedship (not Nacelle in general, we here are talking about the seedships used to colonize the worlds) is pretty much the social microcosm, thus society is one of the main parts of it.
...evidently my point didn't get across. I give up.

Someone has to, after all.

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Unread postby XEL II » 13 Nov 2008, 16:44

And what was your point, then? I went on those links to Wikipedia. Having some society is a fundamental part of having a social microcosm.

BTW, can you quote that part of LotA claiming the Elemental Manipulation is a method of creating worlds?
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark


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