Might and Magic Timeline (My Version)

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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archcorenth
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Might and Magic Timeline (My Version)

Postby archcorenth » Oct 23 2008, 4:11

I noticed that on the timeline on the website that the Heroes Chronicles were not included, which add a much greater cohesiveness to the later games, and also that it was not represented that clearly MM 1-5 take place concurrently with the other games. So I have constructed my own timeline and thought people might be interested. I've marked individual Heroes campaigns that take place separately with an asterix.

I'd be interested in hearing if you guys think any of my placings are wrong. I haven't played every game in the series yet. For instance I'm currently making my way through The World Tree in Heroes Chronicles, and I've just started Secrets of the Inner Sanctum -- it's a lot better than people make out, certainly better than a lot of boringly simple and yet over-complicated Japanese RPG's I can name.

Heroes Chronicles: Warlords of the Wasteland
Heroes Chronicles: Conquest of the Underworld
Heroes Chronicles: Master of Elements
Heroes Chronicles: The World Tree
Heroes Chronicles: The Fiery Moon
Heroes Chronicles: Revolt of the Beast Masters
Might and Magic I: Secrets of the Inner Sanctum
Might and Magic II: Gates to Another World
Heroes of Might and Magic: A Strategic Quest
Heroes of Might and Magic II: The Succession Wars
*Heroes of Might and Magic III: ROE: Seeds of Discontent
Heroes of Might and Magic III: The Shadow of Death
*Heroes of Might and Magic III: AB: Foolhardy Waywardness
Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven/Heroes of Might and Magic III: The Restoration of Erathia
Might and Magic III: Isles of Terra
Might and Magic VII: For Blood and Honor
Heroes of Might and Magic III: Armageddon's Blade
Might and Magic VIII: Day of the Destroyer
Heroes Chronicles: Clash of Dragons
Heroes Chronicles: The Sword of Frost
Heroes of Might and Magic IV
Might and Magic IV and V: World of XEEN
Might and Magic: Swords of XEEN
Might and Magic IX (Presumably, Never Played)

Games not listed above:
Heroes of Might and Magic II: The Price of Loyalty (not enough plot to place. Set in Enroth. It does have one campaign Descendants which supposedly is set in Enroth before Heroes I, but there's no internal plot to it to speak of.)
Heroes of Might and Magic IV: Gathering Storm (Set in Axeoth. Hard to place due to IV's unsteady plot. I'm not even sure whether Axeoth was inhabited before the COLONY heroes got there.)
Heroes of Might and Magic IV: Winds of War (Set in Axeoth.)
Crusaders of Might and Magic (Includes Kreegans)
Warriors of Might and Magic (Never played)
Legends of Might and Magic (Never played, I'm not even sure it has a plot.)
Might and Magic Mobile (Never played. Set in Erathia)


Paul

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 23 2008, 14:16

Looks like there are more MM plot-delvers than we thought :D

The first few Chronicles seem fine to me, though I'd place Revolt before Masters, with both occuring around the 700s. I can't recall why, maybe because it coincides with dates in MM2's manual.

(EDIT: Now I recall one of the reasons: at the end of Masters, Tarnum returns to his old ways as a barbarian, while in Revolt, he expresses surprise and disgust at the mercenary culture of the "modern" Krewlish barbarians he hires to fight for Tatalia. If he'd been living as a barbarian alongside them before RotB, surely he wouldn't be so shocked.)

It seems that MM1 and 2 are actually a few decades after Heroes I. The Terrans had piloted the Lincoln roughly 2 years after MM1 ended, and landed on Colony in the 1160s. However, Morglin Ironfist established his empire in the 1110s and 20s, so Heroes I and II must have taken place earlier. This is consistent with the first game since Morglin doesn't appear in MM1, but a Lord Ironfist does (*cough*Ragnar*cough*).

So I place Heroes I and II before Might and Magic I, assuming there's no applicable "deep-space" temporal theories and that time is relative to every planet (as shown by the Resurrectra-Kastore group in MM3 and 7).

Seeds of Discontent is almost certainly after RoE, as it's hinted in the MM7 manual that Archibald caused its events. He was "stoned" (:P) during the events of SoD, so couldn't have been meddling in politics then.

Clash of Dragons could be before Heroes III, and definitely seems to be, due to the "King of Erathia" who was mentioned (and had been killed by Lord Haart before Heroes III began), not to mention the fact that Kreegans are running wild in Eeofol whereas they were all dead at the end of H3:AB. Though I'm not having that debate again. :P Either way, it was absolutely positively before MM8, in which the Kreegans on Colony had all been wiped out.

Isles of Terra must be either directly before or during Heroes III (which lasted for three years). Resurrectra mentions that her party had landed on Colony a few years before MM7, which took place straight after Heroes III. So I say the Lincoln's landing at Brighton Point was just before Catherine's arrival and the start of RoE, putting Isles of Terra around 1164 AS (Colonial timeline).

Now IIRC, MM IV, V and Swords are before Heroes IV and after MM7, because Corak in MM7 makes no allusions to his counterpart's demise on XEEN, though has apparently seen him crash-land there and assumes that he is alive. I had an interplanetary timeline worked out, but it recently got lost along with my hard drive.

Hard to place due to IV's unsteady plot.


Well, I don't know about an unsteady plot - from my reckoning (bad pun :disagree: ) the campaigns run from about 1176 up to 1181 AS. Of course, I've been heavily influenced by fan lore :-D

I'm not even sure whether Axeoth was inhabited before the COLONY heroes got there.)


It was - check out MMIX (and the two Geary Gravel MM Novels, which could possibly take place there due to a few common locations).

Crusaders of Might and Magic (Includes Kreegans)


Conjecture of course, but I say somewhere before Heroes IV, maybe just after Heroes III (note Heroes IV's so-called God of Death :D)

Warriors of Might and Magic (Never played)


I think about two decades after Crusaders (Drake from Crusaders is present), though I may be mistaken. I've not played the PS2 version.

There's also Shifters of Might and Magic, a direct sequel to Warriors which takes place on the same world with the same characters.

Legends of Might and Magic (Never played, I'm not even sure it has a plot.)


It does (sort of), consisting of a load of unrelated scenarios which take place on Terra, Colony/Enroth, XEEN, Axeoth and... well, everywhere.

Might and Magic Mobile (Never played. Set in Erathia)


I don't think it's the same Erathia, though. There are odd locations throughout, plus the "demons" and the "King" mirror the Kreegans and Roland Ironfist (who shouldn't have been rescued by anyone called Ewan).

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:-D

Postby archcorenth » Oct 23 2008, 19:09

Well thank you so much, Corlagon! I am going to revise my timeline and repost it. I also have it in a spreadsheet which allows events that either do or could overlap to be more accurately shown, by separating the events by world and continent along the x-axis. When you click on one of the entries it brings up a synopsis of the episode, mostly either by me or wikipedia.

Ever since I discovered the Heroes Chronicles, I became aware of a great sense of cohesion between the Might and Magic games and the Heroes games and that's why I started this project -- so that my sister and I could play through the games in order (though I'm sure my sister won't finish). :-P

I didn't realize that the years in the manual meant very much because I assumed different world probably had different dating systems, so I didn't use that to construct my timeline at all.

I only thought Seeds of Discontent happened before Heroes 3 because Might and Magic 7 seems to take place pretty quickly after 3 and the effects of Seeds of Discontent seem to have taken root quite a while before it. I haven't actually finished ROE though so I haven't played the map and am going on synopses. I should maybe mark games I have less experience with.

I set Clash of Dragons after Armageddon's Blade, because I assumed all the campaigns of Armageddon's Blade took place after ROE and some of those are clearly set before Clash of Dragons. I suppose I should split them up.

I set Isles of Terra directly before MM7, because with an absence of precise dates, placing them closely would do more to associate them in people's minds. I'm always trying to order my comics books (mostly Thor and Avengers) in this way and find that it's best, if I'm unsure, to go with a more unlikely choice for better storytelling. However, I feel that you are right and will adjust my timeline accordingly.

I know they have to take place after MM7, but why do MM IV, V and Swords have to take place before HOMMIV? It seems everything is jumping on everything else from VII until HOMMIV, and between MMIII and MMIV there has to be quite a jump in time to allow Sheltem to establish himself on XEEN. Also I'm not sure waht "IIRC" stands for. Tangetially I would be interested in how you work out the HOMMIV campaigns, expansions and MMIX. Since although I've played through all the HOMM IV campaigns (and I'm one of the game's detractors! :-P), I didn't see much relation between one and the next and I don't have any experience with the expansions or MMIX.


Thank you again,
Paul

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Timeline Beta2

Postby archcorenth » Oct 23 2008, 20:43

Okay here's my new version. This could use some help as well. Particularly, the area with all the /'s could be better modified and maybe some of the games listed below the list could be worked in by a more expert hand.

The only suggestion I didn't take from the last post was repositioning the XEEN stuff before COLONY's destruction. I'll need a more real reason for that. :-P

Descendants (HOOMMIIPOL)
Warlords of the Wasteland (HC)
Conquest of the Underworld (HC)
Revolt of the Beast Masters (HC)
Master of Elements (HC)
The World Tree (HC)
The Fiery Moon (HC)
A Strategic Quest

Various Campaigns (HOMMIIIAB)/The Succession Wars/Secrets of the Inner Sanctum
Clash of Dragons (HC)//////////////The Price of Loyalty///Gates to Another World
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////Isles of Terra

The Shadow of Death
Foolhardy Waywardness (HOMMIIIAB)
Restoration of Erathia/Mandate of Heaven
For Blood and Honor
Armageddon's Blade
Day of the Destroyer
Sword of Frost
Heroes of Might and Magic IV
World of Xeen
Swords of Xeen
Might and Magic IX

Games not listed above, but taking place in the timeline:

Crusaders of Might and Magic (unnamed world)
Warriors of Might and Magic
Shifters

Legends of Might and Magic (various worlds)
The Gathering Storm (Axeoth)
Winds of War (Axeoth)

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 23 2008, 22:37

Well thank you so much, Corlagon!


Glad to help. ;)

When you click on one of the entries it brings up a synopsis of the episode, mostly either by me or wikipedia.


I'd be happy to help with writing the synopses, if I find some spare time (which is unlikely :P).

Ever since I discovered the Heroes Chronicles, I became aware of a great sense of cohesion between the Might and Magic games and the Heroes games and that's why I started this project --


Same here - the Chronicles and Heroes III were major reasons for me to become interested in the storyline. But Heroes IV sealed the deal for me, the writing was superb :hoo:

I didn't realize that the years in the manual meant very much because I assumed different world probably had different dating systems, so I didn't use that to construct my timeline at all.


They do each have separate timelines, though assumedly time is relative between the planets - I use Colony's AS timeline universally. So for example:

593 Common Year (VARN-4 timeline) = 1074 After the Silence (Colonial timeline)

I set Clash of Dragons after Armageddon's Blade, because I assumed all the campaigns of Armageddon's Blade took place after ROE and some of those are clearly set before Clash of Dragons. I suppose I should split them up.


It definitely seems that Mutare's campaign takes place along with the other four (Foolhardy Waywardness aside), though the only actual evidence for this is in Adrienne's campaign where it is mentioned that "A lady from Nighon desires power" or something to that effect. Mutare's name isn't mentioned here or in any of the other campaigns, so it seems possible that this reference was ignored or discounted when CotD's storyline was written.

Then again, she's not mentioned in Heroes III either - but the Nighon / Kreegan alliance shown in CotD is mentioned, and according to the Warlocks, the alliance had come to an end before MM7 began. :D

I know they have to take place after MM7, but why do MM IV, V and Swords have to take place before HOMMIV?


MMIV is at most a few years after MM3, I'd say around two or three, so universally it's ca 1168 AS, or approx. 1172 AS
MMVII is after the crash on XEEN, but apparently a few months before Corak and Sheltem's battle. It takes place in 1168.
MMV is about a year later, so ca 1169 AS, approx 1173
Swords takes place after Sheltem's defeat, according to "the Source", so ca 1170 AS, approx 1174
Heroes IV begins in 1175 AS, and Heroes III RoE in 1165.

It seems everything is jumping on everything else from VII until HOMMIV, and between MMIII and MMIV there has to be quite a jump in time to allow Sheltem to establish himself on XEEN.


I agree, but don't forget that over a decade passes between the beginning of RoE and the beginning of Heroes IV - the (presumed) two years between Isles of Terra and MM7 is good time for Sheltem to establish his rule. While MMIV is taking place, Sheltem can be expanding his rule on the Darkside, so that's another year for Castle Alamar to be built. But I think there can't be a huge gap, since Sheltem couldn't keep ignoring Corak's pod forever. :P

Also I'm not sure waht "IIRC" stands for.


If I Remember Correctly :)

Tangetially I would be interested in how you work out the HOMMIV campaigns, expansions and MMIX.


MMIX gives us Axeoth's timeline, taking place in 521 AC (After the Cataclysm). Nicolai Ironfist is in this game, so it clearly takes place after the Reckoning. Originally I thought it was a few years afterwards, but it seems more likely that the Reckoning took place in the same year, so

The Reckoning = 1175 AS (Colony), or 521 AC (Axeoth)

Now Waerjak is the only Heroes IV protagonist who has appeared before - he made a small appearance as a young boy in Clash of the Dragons' first map. He says he is 23 years old when his campaign begins, meaning that he was born around 1153. If we accept that CotD was before RoE - in 1164 - this makes Waerjak 11 years old there, while if it were after AB he would have been about 18, which is nowhere near young enough for him to have need of a caretaker.

So his campaign must be around 522 AC. There is other evidence, such as the fact that the Barbarian people still remember Kilgor's rulership of Krewlod, and are constantly killing each other but have not been wiped out.

Tawni's campaign is full of evidence, directly mentioning Erathia, Nighon and Bracada. A little maths with the dates given suggests that it is around 522 AC or maybe about a year later.

Elwin and Shaera is vague, but since organised pirates are attacking Aranorn it looks to be after Tawni's. Though as no other kingdoms are mentioned, it must be before Palaedra and Great Arcan came along, so 523 AC.

At the start of Lord Lysander's campaign it's directly mentioned that four years have passed since the Reckoning, so it takes place in 525 AC

Emilia couldn't be older than about 17 when her campaign begins, but to me doesn't look younger than 12 in the intro. So 526 AC seems right.

Gauldoth's campaign begins after Emilia's, but they seem to take place semi-concurrently. So it must run from late 526 to 527 AC.

There is basically no evidence whatsoever for the expansions, as they seem to feature the native people of Axeoth who have nothing to do with the Reckoning and know nothing about it. No dates are mentioned, though prerelease info states that they do indeed take place in different regions of Axeoth. They could have taken place a couple of years before the Reckoning, which would explain the total lack of references to HIV and its events.

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Re: Timeline Beta2

Postby Corlagon » Oct 23 2008, 22:51

Now about the second post:

Descendants (HOOMMIIPOL)


This I can agree with, but for my own reasons. :P In the context of its storyline, I guess you are basing this on the kingdom of Harondale.

Now, the Price of Loyalty campaigns are concurrent. For example:

Drakonia from Voyage Home appears in The Price of Loyalty
Gallavant from Voyage Home appears in Descendants (Ivory Gates)
Crazy Uncle Ivan from Descendants appears in Wizard's Isle (last map)
Joseph from Descendants appears in Wizard's Isle (second map)

Joe and Ivan are alive 200 years after the first map of Descendants. Hence, Wizard's Isle takes place at this time, while PoL and Voyage Home are a few centuries later in the timeline.

Might and Magic IX is both before and after Heroes IV, i.e. it takes place after the intro scene, but before (and during, depending on how long it takes for you to play it :D ) all of the campaigns.

Crusaders of Might and Magic (unnamed world)


That world is named Ardon :)

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Beta 3

Postby archcorenth » Oct 24 2008, 2:56

So, you like HOMMIV :-D It's not like I hate it. I did finish almost all of the campaigns, after all. It was just sooo disappointing. It was ugly. And, unlike HOMMII and III, which had the best music I've ever heard in a game, in IV the music was more atmospheric than dynamic (though at least it lacked any so annoying as HOMMIII's swamp theme.) Also I felt betrayed that COLONY had been destroyed. I was looking forward to seeing what would happen when Nicolai grew up. Could he rule over both continents? Whilst the final nail in its coffin for me was that it was so incredibly mind-numbingly simple. Also, all of this shortly after one of the best strategy of all times, Age of Wonders II, had just come out. In both beauty and game play, such a high to such a low. I really thought HOMMV was a return to form, it's one of the most difficult games in the series, maybe the most difficult (that map with Agrael and the elf!), and the plot was so well integrated into the maps themselves. Particularly I liked that some of the maps seemed more like puzzles than strategy games. The only bad things I can say about it is that it lacks engaging Heroes (there really isn't a single character I've yet met who I care about) and everything takes sooo long. I shouldn't have to put aside a whole day to play one map. It's because of this last point that I wind up playing II and III more often.

One of the things that's hard about ordering the maps for me is that I played the campaigns for each installment over such long periods and in amongst each other. For instance, I played POL the Voyage Home before Heroes III came out, whereas I played Descendants about a year ago. A campaign like Elwin and Shaera is particularly hard to place, when the events it depicts are so far removed from everything else that's going on in the game, and that's why I said what I said about the plots of the HOMMIV campaigns. I actually do agree with you that they are MUCH better written than any of the other Heroes games in the series. They just aren't cohesive.

So, here's the new list:

Descendants (POL)
Warlords of the Wasteland
Conquest of the Underworld
Revolt of the Beast Masters
Master of Elements
The World Tree
The Fiery Moon
A Strategic Quest
The Succession Wars/Secrets of the Inner Sanctum
The Price of Loyalty /Gates to Another World
The Shadow of Death (I haven't finished this, does it lead directly to ROE? Is there room for games in between?)
Dragon's Blood (AB)
Clash of Dragons
Isles of Terra (When I actually play through the games I'm going to play this one directly before VII anyways.)
Foolhardy Waywardness (AB)
Restoration of Erathia/Mandate of Heaven
For Blood and Honor
Armageddon's Blade
Day of the Destroyer
World of XEEN (I still object to this, but more quietly)
Swords of XEEN
Sword of Frost
Glory Days of the Past
A Pirate's Daughter
Elwin and Shaera
The True Blade
The Price of Peace
Half Dead
Might and Magic IX


I'll send you my spreadsheet when I'm more happy with it, if you're really interested and you can make changes to it as well. Perhaps when it's finished we could submit it to Celestial Heavens.
Last edited by archcorenth on Oct 24 2008, 3:13, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby archcorenth » Oct 24 2008, 3:05

oops. I meant to move Might and Magic IX up. I'm surprised how well integrated to HOMMIV you make it out to be, reading about it, it sounded like it had only to do with everything else in name only.

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Postby Tress » Oct 24 2008, 8:07

It would be really hard to agree to agree that xeen series are put into the bottom of the list. Altough it happens unspecified time after mm3, and clash of corak and shelthem may have occured at any time. There is mention in finale of mm7 that they know that corak crashed on xeen, thus making mm4 chronologically first and uninformation about his fate may simple be lack of information. After all events of mm4/5 starts really soon after both ships crashes and I somehow got impression that ship with mm3 party landed on "colony' later than coraks/sheltem shiips crashed on xeen.

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Postby Avonu » Oct 24 2008, 8:47

@Archcorenth

1. Planet name from MM6-8 and HoMM1-3 wasn't Colony.


2. MM series take place like their numbers indicate - so after MMV is MMVI and so on. Why?
- Read Guardians' journals in MMV. There is also mentioned that Terrians from MM3 were supposed to land on Xeen (but it was changed in MM7 story) but they saw how Corak ship crashed on Xeen (MM7 outro).

- In one of WoX's dungeons (I don't remember which one) there was massage from NWC themselves about end of Book of Corak and Sheltem and beginning of new chapter in MM series (next MM game - MM6).

- I think that pass of time needed for Kastore to abandon his quest of locate the Ancients took few years, so in times of MM6 he should be in space (he landed on Antagarich about 3 years after events of MM6).
And because he was on spaceship time pass for him maybe slower then on Enroth (Einstein's special theory of relativity - anyone read Forever War?).


3. Now HoMM.

- Descendants from H2:PoL take place in time of generations but I think it ended (last mission) along others PoL campaigns.

- About Clash of the Dragon and Mutare's campaign - read topics about them here on Round Table. There are lots of clues that it took place before/after RoE but not a single strong proof to confirm one of theories.
Personaly I think that rumor from AB tavern (and that four others AB campaigns took place at the same time) is enough for me clue to place Clash of the Dragon after AB.

- MM9 take place right after Reconing (few months up to one year - according to one of game creators and from some dialogs in game), so before HIV events.

- Now if we assume that heroes from H1-2 are not just random names but characters from MM1-5 that somehow ended on Enroth, then MM1-5 took place before HoMM1 (but in that case we have to forgot about few characters from MM3 - Kastore, Maximus and so on).
Anyway in HoMM1 we have lord Ironfist from Varnal Hills and his companion lord Kilburn (both names are in MM1), in MM6 we have Agar, Falagar the Gate Master and few more characters with were in previous MM games. It is strange that heroes names (and also look) are the same like NPCs in MM series. ;)

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Postby archcorenth » Oct 24 2008, 19:09

@Avonu

First of all, the special theory of relativity doesn't apply here, because 1, the theory deals with a few minutes of discrepancy not years, and 2, given the fact that the descendants of heroes are not exiting spaceships, the spaceships are almost certainly headed faster than the speed of light, which breaks the theory of relativity into a million little pieces that have to be swept up into a dustpan and thrown into a refuse pile.

Everywhere, I look the name of the world is Colony, why do you say different?

My reason for placing Descendants at the top of the list was to say "Here's what's happening in Enroth while the Heroes Chronicles are taking place."

I haven't played MM9 yet and that fact was just pointed out to me. That's why I reposted to say I made a mistake by not moving it up in my last timeline.

And yes, I think I agree with you that MM 1 and 2 at any rate should be set before HOMM1, after all, Colagon's reasoning for setting them later (The Terrans piloted the Lincoln 2 years after MM1 ended) doesn't make sense with the fact that each game takes decades to complete, presuming you aren't doing a speed run, and even then. (Sorry, Corlagon). And I agree that the heroes from Might and Magic came through the portals to the land of Enroth. That seems to be really the only semblance of plot in the first HOMM game. So, at the risk of upsetting everyone, I shall move only those up. My reason for setting MM3 much later is that there are decades and decades of time between HOMM1 and just to HOMM2 let alone all the time until the Terrans landed in Erathia. Also, there CAN be a break between MM2 and MM3, whether it was intended at the time or not, which leads me to my next point.

There is no correct order for the MM series because they weren't planned out in advance. Any order you put them in will not make everything in agreement. Rather what I am trying to do is look at big picture plot points and put the series in an order where you can see that. This comes down to the reason I agreed with Corlagon that the Mutare campaign and Clash of Dragons takes place before ROE. Whether Kreegans are in the land is a big picture plot point. A note in a Heroes tavern is not. A person playing the game is probably even somewhat unlikely to see it. Even more to the point, a message from NWC team promoting the next game they're coming out with is particularly not going to blip my radar. It's not a part of the plot, the only thing it is indicative of is the order in which the games were developed. I'm trying to put them in an order that makes more sense than the published order, which doesn't really try to.

@tress

I think it's probably intended to be believed that the XEEN series and MM7 are taking place simultaneously, at the very least, as Corlagon pointed out the Terrans had a made a point that they been in Erathia for a few years, which I suppose would give Corlagon time to establish his power base on XEEN. However, all the games from MM7 through to the destruction of the world take place in rapid succession. And considering the MM games all take several years to complete, where I place one that takes place on a different planet doesn't really matter all that much at that point it the story. I think that XEEN forms something of a climax to the series, and it is mostly for storytelling purposes that I place it at the end, where it COULD take place.

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Beta 4

Postby archcorenth » Oct 24 2008, 19:20

Well at the risk that this is approved by no one :-P I think this is what I'm going with:

Descendants (POL)
Warlords of the Wasteland
Conquest of the Underworld
Revolt of the Beast Masters
Master of Elements
The World Tree
The Fiery Moon
Secrets of the Inner Sanctum (sorry, I'll probably move it again soon)
Gates to Another World
A Strategic Quest
The Succession Wars
The Price of Loyalty
The Shadow of Death (I haven't finished this, does it lead directly to ROE? Is there room for games in between? this still wasn't answered.)
Dragon's Blood (AB)
Clash of Dragons
Isles of Terra
Foolhardy Waywardness (AB)
Restoration of Erathia/Mandate of Heaven
For Blood and Honor/World of XEEN
/Swords of XEEN
Armageddon's Blade
Day of the Destroyer
Sword of Frost
Might and Magic IX
Glory Days of the Past
A Pirate's Daughter
Elwin and Shaera
The True Blade
The Price of Peace
Half Dead

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 24 2008, 22:53

The Shadow of Death (I haven't finished this, does it lead directly to ROE? Is there room for games in between?)


Yes, a lot - its events last from one year after Heroes II ends (Gem's campaign) up to the beginning of the Restoration of Erathia (the final campaign).

Everywhere, I look the name of the world is Colony, why do you say different?


Technically, it is, but unofficially - the name Colony is from the unfinished fan game, Might and Magic Tribute. Tim Lang (MMIX's game director) did approve the name, though.

doesn't make sense with the fact that each game takes decades to complete, presuming you aren't doing a speed run, and even then.


Well, according to the dates in the manual from MM7, MM6 only took six months to finish. :) And MM7 seems to have taken about eleven months max.

That seems to be really the only semblance of plot in the first HOMM game. So, at the risk of upsetting everyone, I shall move only those up. My reason for setting MM3 much later is that there are decades and decades of time between HOMM1 and just to HOMM2 let alone all the time until the Terrans landed in Erathia. Also, there CAN be a break between MM2 and MM3, whether it was intended at the time or not, which leads me to my next point.


But also, one must consider Corak's and Sheltem's log entries in MMV describing the events of MM1-3, which are in an order (i.e. 1-15, no gaps, no breaks), strongly implying that they at least occur in close succession. Now the logic in what I had said is that Morglin Ironfist, Lord Kilburn and maybe Lord Haart from Heroes I are all from VARN-4 (as we know from an awful lot of evidence).

The Lord Kilburn who appears decades later in MM1 is probably the son of Heroes I's character, while the Lord Ironfist there is Morglin's cousin Ragnar from the Heroes I manual (obviously quite a few decades older). But both Kilburns can't be the same character because of what MM7 and MM3 showed us. Lord Haart in Heroes II and III is probably the son of Heroes I's Lord Haart, since the former is only ever mentioned to have fought for Roland, never Morglin (and would be around sixty in Heroes III if he had fought alongside him - he doesn't look nearly that old to me).

This is why I think you shouldn't move either MM1 or MM2 before Heroes I, because only one Lord Ironfist makes an appearance in MM1 (and he's clearly not such an overly benevolent fellow, while Morglin sort of was, if you can excuse his deceptions and sugar-coating in the first few letters from Heroes I's manual).

@Avonu -

(he landed on Antagarich about 3 years after events of MM6).


But that puts the Lincoln's fall in the same year as MM7 - directly contradicting Resurrectra - and also actually places the Terrans there after MM7 begins (up to about six months later, in fact, depending on whether you meant the end of MM6 or the beginning)

- I think that pass of time needed for Kastore to abandon his quest of locate the Ancients took few years


Why, couldn't he have been double-bluffing to the Deyjans? Telling the Lords of Harmondale that the Ancients don't exist would have prevented them from spontaneously changing their minds and delivering the Overthruster to Bracada, I think.

He must have known beyond any doubt that there really are Ancients - otherwise, where did he think the blaster, the Forge, the Gate, the Lincoln and the Guardians came from?

Anyway in HoMM1 we have lord Ironfist from Varnal Hills and his companion lord Kilburn (both names are in MM1),


Not to mention Lord Kilburn's shield from MM6, which features a (Castle) White Wolf :D

- Now if we assume that heroes from H1-2 are not just random names but characters from MM1-5 that somehow ended on Enroth, then MM1-5 took place before HoMM1


Actually on that note we only know that a few are really canonical:

Agar the Warlock
Alamar the Warlock
Falagar the Warlock
Fineous the Barbarian (mentioned in Roland's letter)
Gem the Sorceress
Halon the Wizard
Jezebel the Barbarian (maybe appears in MM6? Mist)
Lord Kilburn the Knight
Luna the Sorceress
Sandro the Necromancer
Yog the Barbarian

Everyone else is uncertain, as so many of them are recycled from MM1-5 and belong on those planets - I'm still not sure which heroes use recycled portraits but different names (i.e. Wrathmont uses Hermes' portrait from MM5, as I recall). Maybe the "new" heroes with old portraits could be considered canon.

But there's really no way Maximus or Kastore could have been the same characters nor canonical ones, plus according to Heroes III, this Crag Hack is clearly the Enrothian human rather than the Terran dwarf (despite his portrait).

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Postby Deadguy118 » Oct 24 2008, 23:43

Why do topics like this still exist?
Oh wait, I know why. Because we have nothing else to talk about. Carry on.
Back from the dead? Maybe.

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Postby Iceworth » Oct 25 2008, 19:54

I still guess that the events of the Clash of Dragons were directly before The Sword of Frost. Tarnum said about Nighon's decline after Mutare's death. How could such "declined" nation successfully attack rich and powerful Erathia?
Clash of Dragons could be before Heroes III, and definitely seems to be, due to the "King of Erathia" who was mentioned

Just a script-writers' mistake, one of many.
the Kreegans on Colony had all been wiped out.

Catherine at the end of AB spoke of some surviving Kreegans...
And from where came to Axeoth Suraze, Ash, Xyron, Octavia, Ignatius, Ayden, Fiona and (especially) Calh (who was one of the Kreelah's defenders during the last AB mission)?
BTW, Xyron and Octavia fought under Mutare's command in CoD... That might be the beginning of Dungeon-Efreeti alliance from HIV. And Tarnum's Faerie Dragons may be the ancestors of Aranorn's FD, who recompensed the extinction of AvLee's Green and Gold Dragons in the Reckoning...
Last edited by Iceworth on Oct 25 2008, 21:32, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 25 2008, 20:28

Tarnum said about Nighon's decline after Mutare's death. How could such "declined" nation successfully attack rich and powerful Erathia?


Actually, he said "Nighon has fallen into chaos" with numerous warlords squabbling for control of the tunnels, just as things were before Mutare came to power. The chaos is reasonably evident in Heroes III, not only because Nighon is defeated very easily but also because its armies have no specific commanders.

Also, Mutare did not die straight after CotD ended - she was killed sometime later.

Just a script-writers' mistake, one of many.


Many? How many others can you point out? :P The Chronicles were very consistent with the rest of the storyline if you ask me.

Anyway I don't see how this can possibly be written off as a mistake at all if none of the other clues aren't.

Catherine at the end of AB spoke of some surviving Kreegans...


I recall she mentioned "The few remaining Kreegan clans are now in hiding", certainly not enough to occupy the Fire Gate and swarm the entire surface of the island of Nighon, let alone wage a second war.

She also says in MM8 that "After we put down Lucifer Kreegan, my armies scoured Eeofol searching for any signs of their continued existence. We found none. No, the Kreegan infestation of our world is eliminated."

...while a couple of thousand Kreegans infesting all of Nighon would certainly count as signs of existence in my book. :lol:

Catherine wasn't on Antagarich at the time of CotD, regardless of whether it's before or after Restoration of Erathia - so when she left for Enroth, there were no living Kreegans on the continent.

And from where came to Axeoth Suraze, Ash, Xyron, Octavia, Ignatius, Ayden, Fiona and (especially) Calh (who was one of the Kreelah's defenders during the last AB mission)?


Gauldoth in Heroes IV states that after Kreelah's fall, the world's remaining Kreegans fled the planet and regrouped at the Fiery Realm. Then the events of MM8 took place. Gauldoth opened a way for them to reach Axeoth once he created the Nexus Portal from Nekross to that Realm.

Fiona, Ignatius, Octavia and Xyron are humans and Efreeti, not Kreegans, so they don't need an explanation.

There is another clue, in that during CotD Tarnum speaks of the Rust Dragons re-emerging into the world after centuries of isolation in the (Tatalian?) swamps. Strange then that they were openly attacking Bracada years before, if one places Mutare's campaign at the same time as Dracon's. :hoo:

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Postby Iceworth » Oct 25 2008, 20:42

Corlagon, I respect you as the greatest M&M historian ever, but this time I disagree with you. Let me keep on my own version of Dragon War events, please, for I'm writing a fanfic (trilogy of novels) about Mutare, Tarnum and Valita...
And what do you think about those my assumtions:
Xyron and Octavia fought under Mutare's command in CoD... That might be the beginning of Dungeon-Efreeti alliance from HIV. And Tarnum's Faerie Dragons may be the ancestors of Aranorn's FD, who recompensed the extinction of AvLee's Green and Gold Dragons in the Reckoning...

I also remember your great idea for the HV campaign, called "Wrath of the Kreegans"... It's a pity that nobody took an interest in it (even LotA creators).
And I always was in firm belief that the Fiery Realm is all that remains of Colony...

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 25 2008, 22:28

Corlagon, I respect you as the greatest M&M historian ever


Really? Thank you muchly, but I don't think so - I haven't even played all of the games :) Anyway, okay, I will stop fervently trying to convert everyone :D

Let me keep on my own version of Dragon War events, please, for I'm writing a fanfic (trilogy of novels) about Mutare, Tarnum and Valita...


Are you going to post them on the internet? If so, I'd be very interested in reading them when they're done.

Xyron and Octavia fought under Mutare's command in CoD... That might be the beginning of Dungeon-Efreeti alliance from HIV.


Well, Nighon's Dungeons don't equate to the HIV Asylum towns, as the latter is much more of a pirate / swamp town than anything else. But besides, the alliance between the two factions began even before Heroes III - prelease info says it was before Catherine's arrival.

And Tarnum's Faerie Dragons may be the ancestors of Aranorn's FD, who recompensed the extinction of AvLee's Green and Gold Dragons in the Reckoning...


Personally I think they are just two different creatures with the same name, with HIV's ones being native to Axeoth, as they are so different graphically.

I also remember your great idea for the HV campaign, called "Wrath of the Kreegans"... It's a pity that nobody took an interest in it (even LotA creators).


Lol, memory lane! I had forgotten it altogether :P Thanks for reminding me, however I wouldn't even accept the campaign myself if I looked at it now, as it is from back when I had no clue about much of the storyline.

And I always was in firm belief that the Fiery Realm is all that remains of Colony...


I was for a while too, but then I replayed the campaign :D

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Postby archcorenth » Oct 30 2008, 18:48

Well I finished my spreadsheet timeline. Though as I've said most of my of my summaries are from wikipedia. I will replace each as I've played through each game. The spreadsheet is also better able to reflect things that could take place simultaneously, so I won't repost my order for the games here. Send me your E-mails if you care for it, I guess.

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Postby XEL II » Nov 9 2008, 10:31

Deadguy118 wrote:Why do topics like this still exist?

Because I'm Batman.
Image
Corlagon wrote:Many? How many others can you point out? :P The Chronicles were very consistent with the rest of the storyline if you ask me.

Fortunately, outright errors are very few. But there are numerous inaccuracies (if not discrepancies).

HC has a good writing in terms of language and character development, but still. Also, the whole story of Tarnum is obsolete, not adding anything useful to or explaining anything in the M&M universe.

Fans who know M&M storyline well are left to make up their own explanations of confusing moments, like CotD or absolutely unnecessary and unexplained additions, like the Ancestors and the Underworld. HC plot almost completely ignores M&M history (especially that of core M&M series).

Terry Ray, HC storywriter, has indeed had little knowledge of this world's lore (there are confusions in Heroes IV story, also by Terry Ray, but they are only occasional, unlike Chronicles). Tarnum is a good character, but HC storyline is such a mess in many of its aspects.
Corlagon wrote:The Terrans had piloted the Lincoln roughly 2 years after MM1 ended

Not quietly. The timeline is:
Corak captires Sheltem on Terra, Sheltem revolts and lands ship on VARN 4.
Over three years pass.
M&M1-2 takes place.
Corak returns to Terra, four years after his last visit (M&M3 manual), he starts searching for Sheltem.
Several years pass (M&M3 manual indicates about nine).
M&M3 occurs, Terrans pilot Linclon.
Not long after, they land on Enroth.

This is more than 2 years after M&M1.

I think M&M3 takes place either before or after HoMM. If before, than there is some time warp caused by travelling on Lincoln (after all, it was an escape shuttle, not a ship full-fledged ship for space travel) and Lord Ironfist from M&M1 was Morglin's father or Ragnar. If after, then M&M1 takes place in 1157 and Lord Ironfist is Ragnar or his son/heir.

It is also possible that HoMM1 is non-canon or not related to Enroth. There no references to it in M&M6 and later products and in M&M8 Jerico Ironfist, who secured the throne in First War of Enrothian Succession, is mentioned. He could be Lord Ironfist who secured throne 25 years before Succession Wars, Archibald's and Roland's father.
Last edited by XEL II on Nov 9 2008, 16:46, edited 3 times in total.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark


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