BDJ Dual-classing

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Breadblade
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BDJ Dual-classing

Postby Breadblade » Jun 10 2008, 19:27

So right now I'm playing MM7 Rev4, latest release, with a KACS party.

Here’s the Current Matrix.Available class changes.
SORCERER
70 Archer
75 Paladin
57 Priest

Priest
75 Druid
56 Sorcerer
70 Archer

Archer
86 Paladin
81 Monk
75 Druid

Fighter
70 Archer
76 Ranger
75 Druid


This new concept really throws a wrench in my usual method of building up a party, since it opens up a lot of new possibilities (even though the choices are limited).

I want to give that really hard endgame dungeon a go when I get to it, so I basically want to get my guys the best combination of M/GM skills they can (plus whatever I can get in the misc useful skills like BB/AM/Med). I hear HP/SP gets adjusted after the change, so that's a factor, too... how is BB/Meditation handled?

Part of it banks on how Dark magic is given to the party. Is it only given (at basic) to P/C/S/A? If for some reason it was given to everyone (regardless of class) at M/GM I was thinking D/D/S/C with 4x shrap would be good, but that's not too likely.

Otherwise, it seems like leaning towards Might would be the way to go.

For my Knight, it seems like Druid would give him a great spread of skills, but drastically cut his HP. Ranger would be an OK choice depending on how GM Axe/Sword stacks up against GM Spear/Sword (or just two swords). The weapon stats have been changed around, so I'm just not sure. Archer seems OK for the magic and GM Bow, but HP would still go down a bit I'd think.

The archer would probably work best as a Paladin for the weapon/armor skills and Self magic. I'm not sure if it's better to get M plate or GM Chain (no recov penalty for the latter), or what weapon skills to invest in (M Sw/Sp? GM Mace/M Sw?)

I'm thinking out of the C/S I would switch one to the other class so I could keep someone with a high SP pool and the other would be a Might class. I'm thinking I would probably make the Sor a Paladin or something, I'm not sure.

Does anyone have suggestions? This is an interesting choice I haven't ever considered in a M&M game.

Mightor Magic
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Postby Mightor Magic » Jun 12 2008, 0:06

Yeah, I tried out the duel classing aspect, without checking the chart or basing my starting party on it.

Druid became a Sorcerer {Very nice though Cleric would have been a better choice} GM Light, Water, Earth, Meditation and Alchemy. Master Body {See?}. Good to great trade.

Paladin became an Archer and immediately gained level 8 Expert Fire Magic. That was fair as he never gained the Master level Dark Magic {The Druid did though}. Kind of pointless combatwise as Blaster rifles are just so much carnage, GM Chain is good though. Even trade.

Ranger became a Thief. I wanted Fighter but I had to settle for Thief. Master Armaster skill is better than Expert I guess and all the magic skills were quest awards anyway {Spell points went from 200 to 60}. Good trade.

Archer {trouble} became Druid {double trouble}. But a Druid with GM Chain is not that bad.


For you:
Fighter-Ranger. Level 10+ GM Axe, Level 10 GM Sword, Level +20 GM Armsmaster. That's just sick {Axes gain speed, Spears do not}.

Sorcerer-Archer. GM Chain kicks Master Plate's butt.

Priest- A Paladin would have been good here. Archer, I guess.

I would recommend trading the Archer for a more useful character like Monk, Thief or another Knight and then trade up into additional magic. Knight-Druid has great potential as the fourth.

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Postby Breadblade » Jun 12 2008, 17:14

Mightor Magic wrote:Yeah, I tried out the duel classing aspect, without checking the chart or basing my starting party on it.

Druid became a Sorcerer {Very nice though Cleric would have been a better choice} GM Light, Water, Earth, Meditation and Alchemy. Master Body {See?}. Good to great trade.

Paladin became an Archer and immediately gained level 8 Expert Fire Magic. That was fair as he never gained the Master level Dark Magic {The Druid did though}. Kind of pointless combatwise as Blaster rifles are just so much carnage, GM Chain is good though. Even trade.

Ranger became a Thief. I wanted Fighter but I had to settle for Thief. Master Armaster skill is better than Expert I guess and all the magic skills were quest awards anyway {Spell points went from 200 to 60}. Good trade.

Archer {trouble} became Druid {double trouble}. But a Druid with GM Chain is not that bad.


For you:
Fighter-Ranger. Level 10+ GM Axe, Level 10 GM Sword, Level +20 GM Armsmaster. That's just sick {Axes gain speed, Spears do not}.

Sorcerer-Archer. GM Chain kicks Master Plate's butt.

Priest- A Paladin would have been good here. Archer, I guess.

I would recommend trading the Archer for a more useful character like Monk, Thief or another Knight and then trade up into additional magic. Knight-Druid has great potential as the fourth.


Questions though--

How does the damage on the best axe compare to that of the best spear? With enough armsmaster (i.e. w/hero gloves) the speed doesn't really seem to matter that much.

How much does that 1/2 plate recovery affect speed if I were to go Master plate?

How does the Dark Magic reward work after game completion?
Is it even worth it to invest in? It seems that with the revised weapon stats Might becomes really, really good in this mod.

Has anyone beaten that endgame dungeon? What's a viable strategy for it? All I've heard is that it's hard.

I'm too far into the mod to restart with a new party, so I won't be changing my initial composition. In hindsight I probably would have taken a second Knight or a pre-Knight class.

Mightor Magic
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Postby Mightor Magic » Jun 13 2008, 18:38

Breadblade wrote:How does the damage on the best axe compare to that of the best spear? With enough armsmaster (i.e. w/hero gloves) the speed doesn't really seem to matter that much.

How much does that 1/2 plate recovery affect speed if I were to go Master plate?

How does the Dark Magic reward work after game completion?
Is it even worth it to invest in? It seems that with the revised weapon stats Might becomes really, really good in this mod.

Has anyone beaten that endgame dungeon? What's a viable strategy for it? All I've heard is that it's hard.


Well, if you want to look at the Spear in just terms of damage, the Slayer is a 9d9 +18 spear with slaying bonuses {Puck was changed to 5d9 +14 sword so duel wielding two Pucks is probably the best amount of damage you can do if you don't pump up the spear skill}. With enough Armmaster skill, you don't even need a sword. However, that damage was seriously mucked up and normal one handed spears do less damage than one handed Axes. But what I find interesting about the Axe skill is the GM skill of the chance of halving an opponent's AC based on skill.

But if there's an overpowered Axe, I haven't found it yet. Amuck still only does 1d9 + 15. If you want to be fair, normal GM axe, sword beats GM spear-sword. If you use Slayer and Puck than no.

Plate recovery is more of a pain for spellcasters than it is for the warriors. You do not want to worry if a sorcerer to has to recover at a Paladin's rate when he casts a Incinerate or Shrapmetal spell {I hate having to have my Paladin just cast the spell "Remove Fear" or "Heroism"}. GM chain aids spellcasting more than combat as Armmaster and weapon skills can reduce recovery for combat to zero regardless of the Armor. Paladins can't fight all that well {my Paladin uses two Pucks while my Archer uses the Slayer and both have about 35 Expert Armaster skill so they have about equal recovery. Guess who does the less damage? It's not even comparable against Undead, Demons and Dragons} though so you're not gaining anything there.

I'm not sure how the Dark Magic quest reward works {Druid, ranger, archer gain the skill but not my paladin?} but since you get more than one of those Dark Cloaks, there is no reason not to have two characters build up the skill. Rangers in particular are a great choice; They get a good amount of SPs but they can only gain Expert level magic. Druids are a good second pick as they get GM Meditation.

Oh yeah, there is a creature in the game that's immune to everything but Light and Dark Magic; There's another reason to build it {You do have the Identify Monster skill, right?}.

I'm kind of stuck in the game; not because of challenge but because Blaster Rifles plus Haste kills everything even more than Blasters did in the original game. And it seems I have to travel back through the tunnel to Eofol as the teleporter doesn't work anymore. It's not a hard tunnel but it's really boring.

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Postby Breadblade » Jun 16 2008, 8:32

So I've narrowed it down a little.

Cleric could go Archer for the melee capabilities, Sorc could go Priest to leave me with someone with a caster's mana pool.

For the Knight, I would probably only pick Ranger for his HP pool compared to that of the Druid. But if the difference isn't significant, I'd likely go druid for the versatility.

Archer would either go Monk (better HP, BB, master AM) or Paladin (master sword, self).

I still have a while before I get to the class change point, so suggestions are still welcome

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radlives
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Postby radlives » Jul 6 2008, 1:01

Does anyone have the full matrix of possibilities?

In other word what starting classes can dual class as?

I have (my favorite) KACS party, and I am not sure I actually
want to change any of their classes. I was thinking of creating a
party that could be transformed into this party....

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vladimir-maestro
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Postby vladimir-maestro » Jul 6 2008, 6:02

Can someone do a post in which all possibilities are presented?
I meen what class can change in what classes?


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